Scottish Independence

[2LQ]

It's getting close to the voting date so I'm curious what your opinions on it are?
Nowadays I'm swaying more towards voting yes but there has been decent points on both sides.

[buttons]

i don't think ill be at home when it is but i would be voting yes. idc if we're ~better together~, i still want to be independent.

[Lewis]

I'm honestly equal either way. Although if I had to choose, it'd be yes for independence.

[David]

would vote no but currently not on the voting register thing

[Inseriousity.]

i agree with jk rowling lol

[Futz]

i think most scottish people will vote yes because muh independence rather than understanding what it means

but it probably is for the best

[lemons]

i hope they don't leave

[Lewis]

i hope they don't leave

even if i leave, total drama island will not be separated!!!

ot: I'm equal either way.

[Aiden]

just seems like a lot of work with all the changes and stuff lol... imagine all them hundreds of wikipedia articles that will need editing. :/

i don't mind though, i think it'd be interesting to see what happens if Scotland does become independent.

[MKR&*42]

I hope they don't leave and I hope people don't just vote yes for the sake of it sigh.

[Red]

I don't want to see the union broke up. Scary how close it is!

[Stephen]

if they vote yes then they should be drilled and pushed towards norway

[karter]

hope they leave!! looking forward to it actually

[Mark]

Voting no, and the majority agree with me. After Tuesday nights debate Alex Salmond has ultimately sealed the deal for his campaign.

[FlyingJesus]

Good luck pretending to still have a currency and all that if they do devolve lol

[dbgtz]

Voting no, and the majority agree with me. After Tuesday nights debate Alex Salmond has ultimately sealed the deal for his campaign.

I'm only half way through watching that, but so far his performance is awful.

[Mark]

I'm only half way through watching that, but so far his performance is awful.

I anticipated him to actually come out with clear answers to popular questions, especially on currency lol... I also expected him to have one last big campaign push for independence and apparently a leaflet through my door I've heard/had nothing. After phone canvassing for my local better together office the majority of don't knows seem to be voting no after Tuesday nights debate.

[Chippiewill]

Voting no, and the majority agree with me. After Tuesday nights debate Alex Salmond has ultimately sealed the deal for his campaign.

Ironically despite the fact everyone thought he did terribly opinion polls actually show more people were swayed from no to yes than yes to no.

[Mark]

Ironically despite the fact everyone thought he did terribly opinion polls actually show more people were swayed from no to yes than yes to no.

Source lol? The majority of the polls i've seen have increased the lead for no or haven't changed. Looked on the electionista twitter page for this.

I'll just post them:
Scotland - NO lead in #IndyRef polls, chg. from previous:

TNS: 9(-5)
Panelbase: 7(n/c)
Survation: 6(+1)
YouGov: 19(+2)
ICM: 11(+4)
Ipsos: 14(-4)

Also not forgetting the poll straight after the event showing a 10/12% (can't remember exactly) lead for Darling.

[Chippiewill]

Post debate Pre Yes Pre No Pre DK
Yes 186 15 11
No 4 215 24
DK 16 4 36

ICM poll which tracked the same people rather than two separate polls.

Edit: it's also worth noting that don't knows to no beat don't know to yes which is why opinion polls don't reflect this.

[Mark]

NEW ‪Survation/Scottish Daily Mail
(chg since Aug 3rd)

Yes 37% (-3)
No 50% (+4)
Undec 13% (-1)

Excluding Undecided
Yes 43% (-4)
No 57% (+4)

[SirDavidTroll]

I hope Scotland doesn't leave as The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland will have it's name changed and most likely the flag! :L
Also one thing to note is that parliament has refused to plan with Scotland if it is voted to leave so I'm not sure weather they don't think it will be majority yes or they just want to play difficult.

Either way just got to see how it plays out; It doesn't really affect me what happens.

[Kardan]

If I were Scottish I'd vote no - I really hope they don't leave.

[SackRace]

Voting no, better together

[DPS]

what i wanna know is.. what happens to the army then? do they still have scottish regiments in the british army if people vote yes?

what will happen to health care? will it still be free?

where are you getting your money from if so to keep it free?

I've heard you also wont be allowed to use the pound, so whats going to happen then?

And i think most of you guys think the EU will let you be a part of them... lol i doubt that but yeah.

I dont live in scotland anymore so i dont really care. but if i did i wouldnt be voting yes.

[dbgtz]

As far as I'm aware, Scottish troops will be given the choice to stay so presumably some will remain.

[FlyingJesus]

At this point it's basically a split between people who actually understand politics and people who think it's cool to hate the English

[Chippiewill]

what i wanna know is.. what happens to the army then? do they still have scottish regiments in the british army if people vote yes?

what will happen to health care? will it still be free?

where are you getting your money from if so to keep it free?

I've heard you also wont be allowed to use the pound, so whats going to happen then?

And i think most of you guys think the EU will let you be a part of them... lol i doubt that but yeah.

I dont live in scotland anymore so i dont really care. but if i did i wouldnt be voting yes.

That's what the white paper is for. Currency wise Salmond would probably win if his claim that not using the pound would absolve them of their responsibility towards the national debt were legitimate.

[dbgtz]

That's what the white paper is for. Currency wise Salmond would probably win if his claim that not using the pound would absolve them of their responsibility towards the national debt were legitimate.

No he wouldn't. He's so absorbed by the idea a currency union is certain that he won't even talk about a back up plan as seen in the debate.

[Chippiewill]

No he wouldn't. He's so absorbed by the idea a currency union is certain that he won't even talk about a back up plan as seen in the debate.
That's exactly my point.

[buttons]

At this point it's basically a split between people who actually understand politics and people who think it's cool to hate the English
yup totally, even the english people living in scotland who are voting yes
but no i can tell u that's not true, my fb is full of people putting across their point and nothing is about hating 'the english'
presuming youre suggesting yes voters = hate england vs no voters = know politics

[dbgtz]

That's exactly my point.

I don't think it was? I thought you were just on about no pound = no debt not the fact he doesn't actually have a solid plan B.


yup totally, even the english people living in scotland who are voting yes
but no i can tell u that's not true, my fb is full of people putting across their point and nothing is about hating 'the english'
presuming youre suggesting yes voters = hate england vs no voters = know politics

A lot of what the yes campaign come out with is basically anti English. Even how Salmond words things e.g. when talking about the pound, he says it's "not England's pound", completely ignoring the rest of the UK.

[Chippiewill]

I don't think it was? I thought you were just on about no pound = no debt not the fact he doesn't actually have a solid plan B.

My point was that his idea of a get out of jail free card on the debt with their own currency (Which is his plan B) is completely ridiculous.

[Kardan]

I thought English people living in Scotland couldn't vote? I thought it was based on your own nationality rather than where you live? (So Scots living in England can vote).

[buttons]

I thought English people living in Scotland couldn't vote? I thought it was based on your own nationality rather than where you live? (So Scots living in England can vote).
Those who can vote:
British citizens resident in Scotland.
Qualifying Commonwealth citizens resident in Scotland. This means Commonwealth citizens who either have leave to remain in the UK or do not require such leave, and are resident in Scotland.
Citizens of the Republic of Ireland and other EU countries resident in Scotland.
Members of the House of Lords resident in Scotland.
Service/Crown personnel serving in the UK or overseas in the Armed Forces or with Her Majesty’s Government who are registered to vote in Scotland.

ive seen polish shops with vote yes on them too

[Kardan]

Wow, I'm totally wrong then. Seems somewhat strange that EU/Commonwealth citizens get a vote.

[The Don]

yup totally, even the english people living in scotland who are voting yes
but no i can tell u that's not true, my fb is full of people putting across their point and nothing is about hating 'the english'
presuming youre suggesting yes voters = hate england vs no voters = know politics

What argument is there for independence other than 'freedom'? I also find it ironic because a large portion of the yes voters want to join the European Union which defeats the whole point of being independent.

[buttons]

What argument is there for independence other than 'freedom'? I also find it ironic because a large portion of the yes voters want to join the European Union which defeats the whole point of being independent.
and what's wrong with freedom? freedom to choose who we want to rule us, freedom to make our own laws, freedom to make our country better? many of us don't want to be ruled by Westminster, don't want to be subjected to ukip rule who think of us as 'subsidy junkies', don't want to be placed into further poverty with the nhs being privatised etc...
& i can ask u the same, why don't england gives us a decent argument for staying together other than 'u need us!!! u can't live without our currency!!'

[The Don]

and what's wrong with freedom? freedom to choose who we want to rule us, freedom to make our own laws, freedom to make our country better? many of us don't want to be ruled by Westminster, don't want to be subjected to ukip rule who think of us as 'subsidy junkies', don't want to be placed into further poverty with the nhs being privatised etc...
& i can ask u the same, why don't england gives us a decent argument for staying together other than 'u need us!!! u can't live without our currency!!'

Freedom doesn't fund hospitals, pay for free education, improve the economy or run a country. Ukip don't even have a council lol? I think you're confusing that with MEP's and Scotland elected a UKIP MEP (lol). The NHS in Scotland is ran by Scotland so if you want to point fingers at healthcare over there, then look closer to home. It's alright to downplay the currency argument but it's actually a valid point.

[Kardan]

Is Salmond any better than Cameron?

[dbgtz]

and what's wrong with freedom? freedom to choose who we want to rule us, freedom to make our own laws, freedom to make our country better? many of us don't want to be ruled by Westminster, don't want to be subjected to ukip rule who think of us as 'subsidy junkies', don't want to be placed into further poverty with the nhs being privatised etc...
& i can ask u the same, why don't england gives us a decent argument for staying together other than 'u need us!!! u can't live without our currency!!'

NHS Scotland control is devolved and for a lot of your issues, you're not "ruled by Westminster" compared to England who doesn't have any kind of devolved assembly so has Scottish/Welsh/NI MPs voting on matters that does not affect them.
I don't get the argument of not wanting to be under a certain governments ruling or "we didn't vote for this government" etc. You could grab the same sized chunk in lots of parts of the UK and say the same thing, but they don't argue for independence. The problem is to do with the FPTP voting system and this horrifically unbalanced devolution present.

I actually think you'll find Salmond is the one fear mongering as far as currency is concerned :)
Well one reason is not sharing a land border with a foreign country really helps as far as defence is concerned and was arguably a small reason GB became a country in the first place.
Secondly, Scotland (and the rUK, don't get me wrong) are in much better economic positions in union, though there's a good chance Scotland would take a bigger blow as it's more reliant on exporting to the rUK than the rUK exports to Scotland though this is by far catastrophic.
Thirdly, there's a good chance a lot of Scottish based businesses will move their base of operations.
Finally, some would argue what the SNP are promising is quite unrealistic. For a while they've been greasing the entrance to independence with free prescriptions, free tuition fees etc. and they don't seem to be stopping with this. Scotland already has a much larger expenditure per head with declining oil revenues, meaning something is going to have to give way at some point and you'll be getting the treatment England is getting today.

Some of that might not make much sense but hey hum.

[FlyingJesus]

presuming youre suggesting yes voters = hate england vs no voters = know politics

Well yes, considering there are no solid political arguments for devolution or plans to make it actually work if the yes vote does go through. The entire thing relies on being magically allowed to keep all of the benefits you get from being part of GB (even though it'd be economically and legally impossible) but getting to pick your own national anthem and ticking a different box on nationality polls

[Richie]

if they vote yes then they should be drilled and pushed towards norway


lmao makes sense

@buttons (http://www.habboxforum.com/member.php?u=42203); join us, bye @Red (http://www.habboxforum.com/member.php?u=81989); and @Calvin (http://www.habboxforum.com/member.php?u=46539); if you wish to be moved it can be arranged. Together we can make the UK look like a fat dinosaur with an abnormally small head.

My lethal photoshop skills.

http://i.imgur.com/Aau57fh.png


Not sure if the voting has gone ahead yet but I hope Scotland gain Independence.

[Red]

NO RICHIE! never joining u!!!

[Richie]

NO RICHIE! never joining u!!!

We don't want you ;l

I took Stephens advice and drilled you off Ireland and glued you to England. gg.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I respect the Scottish Nationalist cause a lot because I think it is a completely legit feeling to have, the freedom to make the own laws for your own people and your own culture - rather than be ruled by a foreign power. But that is where my agreement with the SNP and the pro-independence forces ends, because I simply don't regard Scotland as a foreign country: it's my view that Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland have a common British culture that is strong enough to exist under the same political and legal system (with certain exceptions as in the Scottish legal system which the Acts of Union accomodated). Scottish nationalists obviously think different, and that's fine - but this should come down to gut feeling.

The argument over the NHS, foreign military adventures, Conservative Governments in Westminster and whether or not Scotland will be better off independent are so absurd when it comes to deciding whether or not to be independent or not. For example, Northern England votes Labour mostly and the south of England votes Conservative: do we then decide to partition the country simply because we don't like the political result in one part of the country? No, chopping a country up on the basis of party politics is the most ridiculous concept.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XZTGrj_efk

Great Britain is arguably the most successful civilisation in world history since the fall of Rome, why let Labour and Alex Salmond bring it to an end?

[Aiden]

i watch two of the new documentaries on bbc iplayer and changed my mind, i really don't want scotland to leave :(

[Southe,]

I respect the Scottish Nationalist cause a lot because I think it is a completely legit feeling to have, the freedom to make the own laws for your own people and your own culture - rather than be ruled by a foreign power.
And that is exactly what this vote is about, not about Alex Salmond, Not about hating the English, We feel we can make our own decisions on what's best from Scotland and the people living in it.

But that is where my agreement with the SNP and the pro-independence forces ends,
Well that didn't last long.

because I simply don't regard Scotland as a foreign country: it's my view that Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland have a common British culture that is strong enough to exist under the same political and legal system (with certain exceptions as in the Scottish legal system which the Acts of Union accomodated).
Scottish nationalists obviously think different, and that's fine - but this should come down to gut feeling.
This isn't a sarccy comment. Could you define what you're definition of British Culture is that we all have in common?

The argument over the NHS(With the threat of NHS:E this will have a knock on effect with NHS:S), foreign military adventures(Some people don't want to be part of illegal wars and feel we shouldn't butt in), Conservative Governments in Westminster(It's not absurd to want the Government you voted for and not to be governed by one you did not) and whether or not Scotland will be better off independent(Our survey says..) are so absurd when it comes to deciding whether or not to be independent or not. Not absurd at all.

For example, Northern England votes Labour mostly and the south of England votes Conservative: do we then decide to partition the country simply because we don't like the political result in one part of the country? No, chopping a country up on the basis of party politics is the most ridiculous concept.
This is why England and Scotland are different and have different views. This is why the current arrangement isn't working. No matter what Scotland votes for it rarely makes a difference so what is the point in voting in the first place? If Scotland becomes independent than Scotland will get the Government it votes for, and we won't have things forced on us like the bedroom tax. There is nothing wrong with wanting that.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XZTGrj_efk


Great Britain is arguably the most successful civilisation in world history since the fall of Rome, why let Labour and The Yes Campaign bring it to an end?
Fixed it for you, people need to stop blaming Salmond for everything. All he done was get us the vote we wanted and put in place his vision (white paper) just as Cameron will give the in out vote in a few years.. maybe.


https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/t1.0-9/10378911_807259505985284_7990459490240010146_n.jpg

Not so "Great" as you thought?

[-:Undertaker:-]

And that is exactly what this vote is about, not about Alex Salmond, Not about hating the English, We feel we can make our own decisions on what's best from Scotland and the people living in it.

I never claimed it had anything to do with anti-English feeling, indeed I would say a lot of it is to do with anti-Westminister feeling which I share 100% with you. But just because I have to endure piss poor Labour and Conservative goverments doesn't mean I then want to hang, draw and quarter my nation. Our problem are the rotten stinking main political parties and the politicians, not the system or indeed the nation itself.


This isn't a sarccy comment. Could you define what you're definition of British Culture is that we all have in common?

Our common law, the Monarchy, the House of Lords and House of Commons, our definition of English liberty, the Church of England/the protestant faith in general, our longstanding national sovereignty and independence, the Magna Carta, the Bill of Rights, our shared wars for three hundred years including the Falklands, World War I & II, our humour, our language, our genetics, our flag, our songs, our myths and folklore, our poetry, our food, our drink....... and anything else you care to throw in. And don't belittle any of it, it was all of that that tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of Scottish Britons signed up and fought under the Union flag and sacrificed themselves to defend.

They didn't fight for more NHS funding, more welfare money or against a Tory Government. They fought and died for Great Britain.


(With the threat of NHS:E this will have a knock on effect with NHS)

Labour privatised much of the NHS with PFI schemes, which Scotland voted for.

What would you do if Labour or even the SNP in an independent Scotland then privatised more NHS, declare another independent state?


(Some people don't want to be part of illegal wars and feel we shouldn't butt in)

And I feel the same, as do most Britons.


(It's not absurd to want the Government you voted for and not to be governed by one you did not)

I didn't vote Conservative or Labour, do I now get my own independent state as my horse didn't win the race? Absurd.


and whether or not Scotland will be better off independent(Our survey says..) are so absurd when it comes to deciding whether or not to be independent or not. Not absurd at all.

It is absurd to decide a matter like national independence on the basis of whether Salmond will give you more in benefits than Westminster.


This is why England and Scotland are different and have different views. This is why the current arrangement isn't working. No matter what Scotland votes for it rarely makes a difference so what is the point in voting in the first place? If Scotland becomes independent than Scotland will get the Government it votes for, and we won't have things forced on us like the bedroom tax. There is nothing wrong with wanting that.

Yes you will, what is this rubbish? All of Scotland does not vote the Scottish National Party, does that therefore then entitle the huge swathes of Scotland which vote Labour - as well as those areas which vote Liberal Democrat, Green and Tory - to partition themselves from the SNP voting parts of Scotland?

As for the bedroom 'tax' (which isn't even a tax) this is how absurd the debate has become. That we're now considering breaking up of a highly successful country on the basis of a tax that doesn't exist says it all really, doesn't it?


Not so "Great" as you thought?

You'd just as easily be able to find differences between north and south Scotland, and eastern and western Scotland..... does that then mean you'd consider the partitioning of Scotland itself in order to be top of some international league table?

If benefit payment rates and the NHS funding define to you how great a country is then I can't help you.

[dbgtz]

https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/t1.0-9/10378911_807259505985284_7990459490240010146_n.jpg

Not so "Great" as you thought?

The amount of anti-English emphasis used by the Yes Campaign is quite high. Whilst I'm not suggesting everyone is voting because they're against the English, it's definitely something emphasised throughout the whole campaign.

Not quite sure what you mean about the NHS. Nobody wanted those illegal wars, but if you're referring to Blairs then you can't complain more than anyone else since Labour did have a majority in Scotland.

There's not a Conservative government, there's a coalition government so technically, nobody voted for it and technically, nobody votes for a government but for their local representative who then can be used as a basis to form government. In addition, you could take any chunk of ~5 million people and claim their vote makes no difference.

You seem to just be complaining about the voting system more than anything else which essentially renders most peoples votes useless.

Now on to your image.
"Very recent", which year exactly?
I read a brief summary of this. It claimed the UK has a low number of holidays per year (I didn't realise 4 weeks was low...) and part of the reasoning behind it was the "lack of sunshine". What a farce.
I tried to find a source for this but only found a Dailymail article to support the claim.
Might be true.
Yet, the whole of the UK is 1 in 6 despite the Salmond claiming to have invested so much to tackle poverty?
I think the gender pay gap argument is a farce so won't begin to comment.
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/images/8/85/Public_expenditure_on_education%2C_2010_%281%29_%2 8%25_of_GDP%29_YB14.png - March 2014

The image then seems to make a few of the same points just worded differently so I won't comment on them individually anymore I just want to know how you think any of this will be different independent? Most of the cost of fuel is tax and duty, but with Salmonds plan to build a fund from this I wouldn't expect that to decrease. And the obesity rates? Scotland is 2nd behind the USA :)

[-:Undertaker:-]

Also, what is this garbage I also see peddled by the SNP and Plaid when it comes to "we didn't vote for these illegal wars" as though the wars only happened because those stupid English decided to vote for Labour and Conservative in such huge numbers.

In 2001 Blair won 44% of the vote in Scotland, giving him 46 seats out of his UK total of 413 out of 650.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_United_Kingdom_general_election_results_in_Sc otland

In 2001 Blair won 49% of the vote in Wales, giving him 29 seats out of his UK total of 413 out of 650.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_United_Kingdom_general_election_results_in_Wa les

That means that Scotland and Wales combined gave Blair 75 seats, which if they didn't he'd of only had a total of 338: a small majority.

If you add the Conservatives (who also supported the war) Scottish percentage on - 16% - then it's even higher at 60%.

So then Iraq happens.....

In 2005 Blair won 40% of the vote in Scotland, giving him 41 seats out of his UK total of 355 out of 650.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_United_Kingdom_general_election_results_in_Sc otland

In 2005 Blair won 43% of the vote in Wales, giving him 29 seats out of his UK total of 355 out of 650.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_United_Kingdom_general_election_results_in_Wa les

If you add the Conservatives (who also supported the war) Scottish percentage on - 16% - then it's even higher at 56%.

That means that Scotland and Wales combined gave Blair 70 seats, which if they didn't he'd of only had a total of 285 which would have meant he'd of been kicked out of office after the disgrace that was the Iraq War. So if anything, it was England that ended up with a huge Labour majority that it didn't vote for. Scotland and Wales voted FOR those wars even more so than England alone did.

Enough of this rubbish that if only Scotland were independent it wouldn't get involved in stupid wars overseas - the election results suggest it would.

[The Don]

https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/t1.0-9/10378911_807259505985284_7990459490240010146_n.jpg

Not so "Great" as you thought?

Been brainwashed by ridiculous propaganda I see. Almost all of those points are wrong or worded in a way to make them seem worse. And if you think Scotland leaving and becoming poorer will magically sort out any of those issues then more for you.

[The Don]

The amount of anti-English emphasis used by the Yes Campaign is quite high. Whilst I'm not suggesting everyone is voting because they're against the English, it's definitely something emphasised throughout the whole campaign.

Not quite sure what you mean about the NHS. Nobody wanted those illegal wars, but if you're referring to Blairs then you can't complain more than anyone else since Labour did have a majority in Scotland.

There's not a Conservative government, there's a coalition government so technically, nobody voted for it and technically, nobody votes for a government but for their local representative who then can be used as a basis to form government. In addition, you could take any chunk of ~5 million people and claim their vote makes no difference.

You seem to just be complaining about the voting system more than anything else which essentially renders most peoples votes useless.

Now on to your image.
"Very recent", which year exactly?
I read a brief summary of this. It claimed the UK has a low number of holidays per year (I didn't realise 4 weeks was low...) and part of the reasoning behind it was the "lack of sunshine". What a farce.
I tried to find a source for this but only found a Dailymail article to support the claim.
Might be true.
Yet, the whole of the UK is 1 in 6 despite the Salmond claiming to have invested so much to tackle poverty?
I think the gender pay gap argument is a farce so won't begin to comment.
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/images/8/85/Public_expenditure_on_education%2C_2010_%281%29_%2 8%25_of_GDP%29_YB14.png - March 2014

The image then seems to make a few of the same points just worded differently so I won't comment on them individually anymore I just want to know how you think any of this will be different independent? Most of the cost of fuel is tax and duty, but with Salmonds plan to build a fund from this I wouldn't expect that to decrease. And the obesity rates? Scotland is 2nd behind the USA :)

I wouldn't believe a single 'fact' on that picture. I've literally looked up the FIRST point (that the UK is the most unequal society in the west) and found it to be completely wrong. Page 168 of the 2014 Human Development Index shows that we're actually the 9th BEST in Europe, and 14th in the world. Far from being the worst in west, with countries such as France, Belgium, Spain and Italy scoring worse than us. It's easy to skew reality in these arguments, but it's unnecessary. The argument shouldn't be about how good the UK is, it should be about whether Scotland will be better off in the UK or on their own, and all the facts point towards it being a safer bet for them to stay.

[Kardan]

How on earth can the UK have a 'low' number of holidays a year? 4 weeks is insane. You go over to America and most people do not get paid holiday leave.

- - - Updated - - -

The 2nd point: "UK - Worst quality of life", which I assume means that places in Scotland apparently 'dominate' the low positions of 'Best places to live in the UK', well, those places will still be bottom on a list of 'Best places to live in Scotland'.

[The Don]

How on earth can the UK have a 'low' number of holidays a year? 4 weeks is insane. You go over to America and most people do not get paid holiday leave.

The same way that according to that picture the UK has the highest cost of childcare in Europe, yet Switzerland's percentage of family income spent on childcare is double that of the UK's, it's simply not true.

[Kardan]

'Third lowest maternity pay in Europe' - Yes, the UK does have the third lowest over 6 months. Worth noting that this is only Europe (Once again, look at how maternity pay for America works), and worth noting that in the UK you get LONGER than 6 months maternity pay. So in reality you have a choice between Higher maternity pay for 6 months, or a lower maternity pay for 12 months (as an example). Of course, over a 6 month window, the lower pay is worse, but in the long run, it may not be.

Then, let's assume it is worse, you would assume that Scotland would then change this around if they became independent, but from a quick google search all I can find is that people reckon they've already improved maternity pay. So good luck there.

- - - Updated - - -

You literally could argue the majority of points on that image basically.

- - - Updated - - -

In Scotland, 1 in 5 children are in poverty.

It's 19%, so close enough. Had a look at what Scotland plans to do about it if they became independent, 'Try a new approach' was the answer.

Pay gap between Males/females is 8th worse in Europe.

Also true. So now Scotland needs to give more money to pregnant women, more money to women in general, more money to kids in poverty. Good thing Scotland just has tons of money lying around for a rainy day.

Below average on money spent in education in the EU.

Simply untrue. UK is about 6th/7th, which isn't below average.

So Scotland want to spend more money on maternity pay, equal wages, child poverty, education.

If you keep going down the list, most of it is economy related. How does Scotland expect to become the perfect country? Surely it's impossible to improve everything on that list? Otherwise everyone would be doing it.

[The Don]

'Third lowest maternity pay in Europe' - Yes, the UK does have the third lowest over 6 months. Worth noting that this is only Europe (Once again, look at how maternity pay for America works), and worth noting that in the UK you get LONGER than 6 months maternity pay. So in reality you have a choice between Higher maternity pay for 6 months, or a lower maternity pay for 12 months (as an example). Of course, over a 6 month window, the lower pay is worse, but in the long run, it may not be.

Then, let's assume it is worse, you would assume that Scotland would then change this around if they became independent, but from a quick google search all I can find is that people reckon they've already improved maternity pay. So good luck there.

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You literally could argue the majority of points on that image basically.

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In Scotland, 1 in 5 children are in poverty.

It's 19%, so close enough. Had a look at what Scotland plans to do about it if they became independent, 'Try a new approach' was the answer.

Pay gap between Males/females is 8th worse in Europe.

Also true. So now Scotland needs to give more money to pregnant women, more money to women in general, more money to kids in poverty. Good thing Scotland just has tons of money lying around for a rainy day.

Below average on money spent in education in the EU.

Simply untrue. UK is about 6th/7th, which isn't below average.

So Scotland want to spend more money on maternity pay, equal wages, child poverty, education.

If you keep going down the list, most of it is economy related. How does Scotland expect to become the perfect country? Surely it's impossible to improve everything on that list? Otherwise everyone would be doing it.

Don't forget they want all that WHILST also having more than the already generous 4 weeks holiday we get! It's almost as if the things they're being promised are too good to be true...

[Southe,]

I was going to type a response, but i feel it will just go back and forward and we won't agree so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Regarding the picture, probably a mistake to post that. I didn't read it and merely just grabbed the first thing i could find as i wanted to post something in response to Taker's video which i felt was very patrionising.

Don, The BBC has been proven to mislead in there reporting the referendum, not accept comment's in only the Scottish news stories on the BBC website and given warning to BitterTogether before on tv debates. Project Fear on the other hand are also guilty of using misleading information so let's not pretend otherwise. and as for the poorer after a yes vote? nonsense.

I'll still be voting Yes. I'm 100% positive if the roles were reversed and every decision was made up in Holyrood, where the English were outnumbered, And knowing you could scrap all this and go it alone you would.

I will say, Ideally i would prefer if all the nations in the UK split up, all became equals and formed a new Union were every nation had an equal say, with there own parliaments for there own nations matters. Would probably never work, but that's what i would like to see. At least then these myths of Scotland being subsidized by England would be put to rest.

[Mikey]

I'm voting no.

[dbgtz]

I was going to type a response, but i feel it will just go back and forward and we won't agree so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Regarding the picture, probably a mistake to post that. I didn't read it and merely just grabbed the first thing i could find as i wanted to post something in response to Taker's video which i felt was very patrionising.

Don, The BBC has been proven to mislead in there reporting the referendum, not accept comment's in only the Scottish news stories on the BBC website and given warning to BitterTogether before on tv debates. Project Fear on the other hand are also guilty of using misleading information so let's not pretend otherwise. and as for the poorer after a yes vote? nonsense.

I'll still be voting Yes. I'm 100% positive if the roles were reversed and every decision was made up in Holyrood, where the English were outnumbered, And knowing you could scrap all this and go it alone you would.

I will say, Ideally i would prefer if all the nations in the UK split up, all became equals and formed a new Union were every nation had an equal say, with there own parliaments for there own nations matters. Would probably never work, but that's what i would like to see. At least then these myths of Scotland being subsidized by England would be put to rest.


Show me this proof :)

That 4th paragraph/statement is ridiculous. For starts, no where near every decision is made in Westminster. The whole statement seems to ignore what a bloody democracy is.

What is an "equal" say? Because, pre-devolution, every 1 citizen (18+) had an equal say, now citizens of Scotland, Wales and NI have a much greater say.

[FlyingJesus]

Regarding the picture, probably a mistake to post that. I didn't read it and merely just grabbed the first thing i could find

Enough said really. The Yes vote is a reactionary vote to an imagined problem with no actual solutions beyond "look at this thing I just made up". The problems in Scotland will not go away by creating a new government, especially since none of the Yes campaigners have actually got a clue how politics really works or have even bothered to give examples of what they'll realistically be able to achieve as opposed to just a magical "we won't be ruled by England (which is already the case) any more and that will solve everything"

[Mark]

Can people please sympathise with the likes of myself and Mikey as this is a prime example of the types of people we have to deal with on a daily basis? As the polls go, when it is a no vote I hope we bury this debate at least for a number of years. It's become a nasty and hostile debate which has divided the country massively, and unfortunately I see no quick fix for that.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Can people please sympathise with the likes of myself and Mikey as this is a prime example of the types of people we have to deal with on a daily basis? As the polls go, when it is a no vote I hope we bury this debate at least for a number of years. It's become a nasty and hostile debate which has divided the country massively, and unfortunately I see no quick fix for that.

Unionists shouldn't allow matters to rest after a victory though, as there is always the threat that Scottish separtists will try again... that said, it isn't assured. In the years that have followed after the Quebec independence referendum, support for Quebec independence has dropped and it is the same with the Monarchy in Australia, after the referendum a decade ago support for retaining the Monarchy has increased and even with Northern Ireland support for the Union has continued to grow despite many predicting that the demographics would mean that the north would eventually fall to the Republic.

It goes to show that conservative values and ideas can be successfully fought for, provided there's a will to defend them. :)

[Mikey]

Can people please sympathise with the likes of myself and Mikey as this is a prime example of the types of people we have to deal with on a daily basis? As the polls go, when it is a no vote I hope we bury this debate at least for a number of years. It's become a nasty and hostile debate which has divided the country massively, and unfortunately I see no quick fix for that.

It's starting to really bore me at the moment, honestly can't wait until people go to the polls and make their decision. All you see in the news these days is independence, independence, independence..

As Mark has said yes it's been quite nasty and to be honest there's no need for it, already enough upset in this world. Now I'm not saying saying all Yes voters are like this but it's quite scary how passionate some of them are to to the point where they are aggressive.

In college for example there was a focus group and myself and a few of my Media classmates were observing a focus group this journalist from The Guardian was doing for a piece on how college students from across Scotland felt about the situation and what their stance was. Journalist made it clear in the joining instructions what was going to be asked and even the stuff she asked wasn't unreasonable but there was alot of aggression and anger because they didn't like what she had to say even though she was taking it from both sides (yes and no).

The journalist handled it very well and afterwards and we applauded her with the way she tackled the situation.

Watched debates that have been on the television, read into it from both sides.. no thanks. Happy for Scotland to get more powers and still be part of the United Kingdom, we are fine the way we are.

That's all I have to say about this topic. ;)