Bus Priority - Wheelchairs or Prams?

[buttons]

if you haven't been reading, there's news going on about a court deciding whether wheelchair users should have priority over prams on busses. on our busses there is room for one or the other.

an article on two sides of the story

In February 2012, wheelchair user Doug Paulley was not allowed to board a bus in Leeds because the wheelchair space was taken by a pushchair. The mother, not wanting to wake her sleeping baby, refused to move.Paulley was left with no choice but to get off and wait for the next bus. That one took him to the wrong side of the city and he had to wait an hour for his train. It was the straw that broke the camel's back. "That day in February resulted in me not using a bus again for a year. I lost all confidence and couldn't face it any more," he said last year.
But did he have more of a right to the space than a mother not wanting to wake her sleeping child?
The law says he did because disabled people are a "protected group" under the Equality Act 2010. This means that they have a legal right to protection from discrimination and access to facilities, including public transport. The same protection is not given to parents travelling with pushchairs, because they have other options - they could fold the pushchair away, and sit with their child on their lap.
For Baroness Tanni-Grey Thompson, who knows what it is like to be a wheelchair user and a mother with a pushchair, the psychological significance for disabled people of knowing they can get on the bus is an important factor that should be noted.
Continue reading the main story (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-ouch-30001656#story_continues_2)“Start Quote


The issue should really be about equality of access for everybody”

Claire MullerMother
"I'm a mum, I've been there with a pram, but for disabled people it's important they have the ability to travel in the same way as anyone else," she says.
That, for disability campaigners, is what it boils down to, a person's basic ability to get around. They argue that other travellers, including parents with pushchairs, could ultimately walk the remaining distance whereas disabled people could not.
But Claire Muller, a mother who recently had to get off the bus for a wheelchair user, feels as entitled to that space as a wheelchair user. She says that people could end up resenting disabled people. "At the moment you're firstly hoping there's not another pushchair on there, and then at every stop you're hoping there's not a wheelchair user," she says. "It shouldn't be the case, but it is."
Back in 2012, First Bus, the company in charge of the bus Paulley tried to get on, had a "first come, first served" policy that meant the driver could ask the woman to move, but could not force her. It relied on the goodwill of passengers to give up their spot for a wheelchair user, and as became evident, this reliance was open to failure.
Paulley was so upset by the experience that he embarked on an 18-month legal battle against First Bus, a case he eventually won. A judge at Leeds County Court ruled in September last year that First Bus's policy of "requesting but not requiring" non-disabled travellers to move was unlawful discrimination, in breach of the Equality Act 2010.
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/78931000/jpg/_78931193_458753725.jpg
The judge, Recorder Isaacs, ruled that Paulley had been put at a substantial disadvantage because of the incident. If the next bus had arrived more quickly then Natalie Rodgers, spokesperson for Unity Law who represent Paulley, says he would have lost the case as he would not have been at a substantial disadvantage to other travellers. It was the waiting, and the stress incurred, that led to the judge's decision.
Now, First Bus have appealed against that decision, and it has reached the Court of Appeal. They are arguing that they made reasonable adjustment to allow wheelchair users access by providing the bays, and that it was not a requirement for the driver to move the mother.
They want legal clarity on whether this should be a driver's role. It is a precedent-setting case that, if First Bus lose, would result in drivers having a legal requirement to move people from that bay if a wheelchair user needs it, and it would stretch further too, for all bus companies and trains across England and Wales.
Pushchairs could be folded, but Sally Whittle, a mother and writer of a blog called Who's The Mummy? (http://whosthemummy.co.uk/) explains that it is not that simple.
"Public transport is not a joyous experience at the best of times, but if you're travelling with a young baby in a pushchair there might be all kinds of reasons why it can't be collapsed," she says.
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/78931000/jpg/_78931191_de36.jpgDoug Paulley says disabled people fought hard for access to buses in the first place
Some pushchairs, such as parent-facing ones, are not designed to collapse. If there are items underneath then it can be tricky, and pushchairs and prams can be extremely large. As Whittle says, "if you do collapse it the question is often, where do you put it?"
Muller thinks there is a risk of prioritising one group and excluding the other. "The issue should really be about equality of access for everybody," she says.
It is a fact that more parents with pushchairs and people with large suitcases regularly use buses than wheelchair users so a change could affect many, but for Paulley it is important to push as far as necessary for equality, to ensure that the protection of disabled people continues.
"These bays were designated as wheelchair spaces and they happened because disabled people protested and chained themselves to buses in the 1990s," he says. "If that space isn't available, that person can't travel."
For Whittle, Paulley and Muller the onus should be on the bus companies to provide suitable transport for all, but if First Bus lose their appeal it will be a landmark decision for disability rights.

[Kardan]

Wheelchair users obviously.

[scottish]

I agree, wheelchairs should take priority.

[FlyingJesus]

Whoever gets there first you can't punch people off a bus just because someone else wants to be there

[The Don]

Obviously wheelchairs... A parent can fold up a pram and have their child on their lap, a person in a wheelchair can't exactly do that.

[buttons]

yeah but not all prams can be folded up
what if u have twins or something n need a big pram?
altho i'd just say for them to try position the pram away from the wheelchair area and stand. when i get the train mostly parents will stand with their prams

[The Don]

yeah but not all prams can be folded up
what if u have twins or something n need a big pram?
altho i'd just say for them to try position the pram away from the wheelchair area and stand. when i get the train mostly parents will stand with their prams

I guess but you can get double prams which fold up and a baby can go on a parents lap, a person in a wheelchair is limited to it so surely the one which isn't as restricted should have to move. Either way I think disabled people should get priority

[buttons]

yeah but 2 babies cant fit on one lap :P not for skinny minnies anyway.
i also think disabled people should get priority but then what if the mum was taking the child to a dr appointment and had to be there on that bus whereas the wheelchair person could easily wait for 30 minutes? like not all wheelchair users r gna complain if its the right thing to do

[Lewis]

A wheelchair user should ALWAYS be put before someone with a pram.

In reply to getting kicked off buses: I'm just talking about who gets the space/seat area or whatever. Wheelchair users come before someone with a pram. Where I live though, no one really gets kicked off the bus if there's no room, or at least I've never seen it. Sometimes there's like 10+ people standing around with the seats full, not including those upstairs!

[Brad]

I dont think its either's faults in this one. I think there should be adequate amount of room on these forms of transportation for both people groups.

- - - Updated - - -

But personally, I'd blame the bus driver for not being able to resolve the issue and having to kick the person in the wheelchair off.

[lawrawrrr]

Whoever is there first, if it's an unfoldable pram. If it folds up, the bus driver should have the authority to ask that person to fold the pram up or leave the bus.

[GommeInc]

Wheelchair users should have priority - it's a no brainer. This case is incredibly irritating to read from a practical point of view as the bus company had tried to move the woman but the woman refused to move yet the bus company is the one in trouble for one selfish woman's act - her son was only asleep. This is due in part to their "first come first served" policy but it should really be based on first disabled traveller rather than woman who isn't disabled who is not restrained from moving from one seat to another.

The case itself is quite interesting though from a legal point of view and the awaiting judgment is based on:

(i) whether F had a provision, criterion or practice for the purposes of s.20(3) of the Act;
(ii) if so, whether it placed disabled people at a substantial disadvantage in relation to the provision of F's service, namely access to and use of bus travel;
(iii) if so, whether reasonable steps could be taken to avoid that substantial disadvantage;
(iv) whether any failure to take those steps had caused P a detriment.

(F = First Group plc, P = Paulley)

Going further into the above issue:

Judgment for claimant. (1) The policy adopted by F at the material time of "first come, first served", whereby a non-wheelchair-user occupying the wheelchair space on the bus would merely be requested to move, was a provision or practice within s.20(3) (see para.10 of judgment). (2) The disadvantage suffered by a disabled person in comparison with persons using the bus service who were not disabled, being the appropriate comparators, was substantial: by reason of the practice adopted by F, the disabled wheelchair user would be unable to travel on the bus and would therefore have to wait for the next bus or take a different form of transport (para.11). (3) The practice suggested by P, namely that the system of priority given to wheelchair users should be enforced as a matter not of request but of requirement, was a reasonable one. Such a requirement could be incorporated into F's conditions of carriage (para.21). (4) P had suffered a detriment: there could be little doubt that the delay which he had suffered amounted to more than an "unjustified sense of grievance" for the purposes of the relevant Code of Practice (para.22). (5) As to damages, this was not a case where the defendant had behaved in a high-handed, malicious or insulting manner. On the contrary, F's driver had acted courteously and professionally throughout. The case belonged at the top end of the lowest band; P would be awarded £5,500 for the injury to his feelings (para.24).

That said, from a design point of view you could argue that with more mobility for both disabled and mothers/fathers, buses should be designed to accommodate more prams and wheelchairs.

[Jssy]

Where I live this happened and the woman with a pram refused to move so the bus company stopped the bus and called the police, its their policy that a pram must move or be folded down for a wheelchair user and I agree, a wheelchair is a necessity for someone who isn't mobile. A pram whilst useful is not a necessity.

[Gina]

i remember being on a bus and the wheelchair used literally got verbally abused on the bus because he was taking up the space when there was someone with a buggy who needed in so he ended up getting off the bus and he got a taxi home which was pretty nasty
i think wheelchair users should def get priority lol especially if the pram can be folded up or if its just a baby sleeping

however at same time i dont think people should be pushed off of the bus
in my area the buses come every 10 mins anyway or most at least and if they're unable to shut the pram or whatever then idk think should just be whoevers there first lol or whoever acc needsthe bus at that time
like if they haves a drs appt or theyre needing to go there whereas other person is fine waiting an extra 10mins

idk if that even makes sense lol reason why i hate replying to these things but thisi nterested me ok bye

[Kyle]

there are also foldable wheelchairs and a wheelchair user can fit on a seat safely where a baby/child cannot.

[Mikey]

On the buses here it's a wheelchair area, has it clearly on the area - yes it may be difficult for parents with prams but it's a WHEELCHAIR area. Wheelchair users of course should have priority.

[Gina]

there are also foldable wheelchairs and a wheelchair user can fit on a seat safely where a baby/child cannot.

however it takes a lot longer for people to get in and out of a wheelchair if they're paraplegic for example and could result in them missing stops?
someone who i know whos disabled cant even get out the wheelchair by himself currently lol and when he could do it with less assistance he needed a yellow board to slide off/on a seat
its a lot harder to get in/out of a wheelchair than just picking a child out of a pram
they are in that wheelchair for a reason lol isnt as easy as just standing up and walking to a seat
i doubt thats v possible on a moving busy bus lol

[lemons]

i think wheelchair should get priority and if a pram is there they should fold it up but i think the real issue is that there isn't enough space on buses!

[Kyle]

buses have side bars available next to priority seating for reduced mobility passengers to ease their seating transfer. prams with children in will still take up space and will take more time to fold when we consider that they may also be being used for storage. as for missing a stop, this is simply not the case. if you want to get off, you ring the bell and the bus driver will stop, wait for you to get off, and continue their journey. the bus wouldn't be in transit when the person was moving into/out of their seat.

more thought needs to be invested in bus design in all i think. it's not a case of wheelchair/scooter v pram, it is a case of looking to accomodate for both. make buses longer and add more wheelchair/pushchair bays at the front. if both are foldable (bearing in mind that some wheelchairs and prams are not) then it becomes a moral question of who is more deserving of a seat which is just silly and in that case it should just be first come first served.

[Gina]

buses have side bars available next to priority seating for reduced mobility passengers to ease their seating transfer. prams with children in will still take up space and will take more time to fold when we consider that they may also be being used for storage. as for missing a stop, this is simply not the case. if you want to get off, you ring the bell and the bus driver will stop, wait for you to get off, and continue their journey. the bus wouldn't be in transit when the person was moving into/out of their seat.
it will take a lot longer for someone to open a folded wheelchair and leave the bus than someone with a pram lol
with a pram its a lot easier to sort yourself out off the bus as well once youre off and just carrying the pram and your child out and sorting it out then off on your journey
with a wheelchair you need to tranfer onto the seat, fold away the wheelchair etc and then getting off you cant just walk off with the wheelcdhair in your hand until your sorted because they cant lol it literally has to all be done on the bus
what if the person has no one with them as well
are they suppoed to be expected to be sat down and fold up their wheelchair with a bar in the way or do it to the side where no one can get through?
and then what about when they arent reduced mobility and they cant move hip down do you expect them to move by themself and sort it out by themself because i dont think a bar for them to hold onto will make it easier if they cant move their legs
there also cant be that much storage considering its a pram and you cant fit lots of shopping bags on lol
what if the disabled person has stuff with them? i know the person i know keeps bags at the back of his wheelchair with all the stuff he needs incase something happens and keeps things at the bottom, bags on his lap etc

[Verst]

I believe wheelchair users should definitely get priority on buses. They have a lot less mobility than people with prams. It is more of an inconvenience than anything for people to fold up or move their pram. For Wheelchair users it is a seriously painful struggle or they may even be physically incapable of moving out of their wheelchair by themselves.

Of all the time I have been catching buses I have never came accross this problem though. On the buses I use there are two dedicated spaces that can be used for wheelchairs users or people with prams. Bus companies would be better off figuring out how they could better utilize the space on their buses rather than getting involved in a wheelchair vs pram debate.

[Drewar]

I'm not entirely sure what a "pram" is, but based on context, I'm guessing it's a "stroller" (what we call them in Canada).

Based on that assumption, I would give the priority to those in a wheelchair. As someone else mentioned, a stroller can be folded up and the baby can be carried by the parent/guardian.

[Empired]

buses have side bars available next to priority seating for reduced mobility passengers to ease their seating transfer. prams with children in will still take up space and will take more time to fold when we consider that they may also be being used for storage. as for missing a stop, this is simply not the case. if you want to get off, you ring the bell and the bus driver will stop, wait for you to get off, and continue their journey. the bus wouldn't be in transit when the person was moving into/out of their seat.

more thought needs to be invested in bus design in all i think. it's not a case of wheelchair/scooter v pram, it is a case of looking to accomodate for both. make buses longer and add more wheelchair/pushchair bays at the front. if both are foldable (bearing in mind that some wheelchairs and prams are not) then it becomes a moral question of who is more deserving of a seat which is just silly and in that case it should just be first come first served.
I'm with Gina here. The whole point of someone being in a wheelchair is that they NEED to be. We should not be expecting wheelchair users to just hop onto a bus seat and fold away their wheelchair. For some users this is impossible as they may have lost all movement up to their waist.

And your argument about bus drivers waiting for you to get off the bus is simply not true. Sure, you get some nice bus drivers who'll wait but you can get some really nasty ones too. Sometimes I can be sat at the back of the bus and I don't even have time to get out and I'm fully mobile. And I suppose the wheelchair user could call out for them to wait, but some might be ashamed and a lot of users don't like to ask for help because people always see them as vulnerable anyway.

I understand your point about these spaces being first come first served but that just means we're going to get more cases like this one here. I agree with Jord; bus companies really need to rethink the design of their buses and perhaps work out a way to fit two wheelchairs/two prams/one of each on a bus.

[Gina]

I'm with Gina here. The whole point of someone being in a wheelchair is that they NEED to be. We should not be expecting wheelchair users to just hop onto a bus seat and fold away their wheelchair. For some users this is impossible as they may have lost all movement up to their waist.

And your argument about bus drivers waiting for you to get off the bus is simply not true. Sure, you get some nice bus drivers who'll wait but you can get some really nasty ones too. Sometimes I can be sat at the back of the bus and I don't even have time to get out and I'm fully mobile. And I suppose the wheelchair user could call out for them to wait, but some might be ashamed and a lot of users don't like to ask for help because people always see them as vulnerable anyway.

I understand your point about these spaces being first come first served but that just means we're going to get more cases like this one here. I agree with Jord; bus companies really need to rethink the design of their buses and perhaps work out a way to fit two wheelchairs/two prams/one of each on a bus.

passengers as well can be really nasty and if you're taking 10 minutes to just get off the bus
i know where i like a lot of bus drivers dont give you a chance lol sometimes they wont even stop if its 1 person ;l rude people

[jesus]

wheelchair has legal priority. it's also part of the DDA

buggies can be folded + child sits on a seat, wheelchairs cannot. the space is designed for a wheelchair also and 'may be used by buggies if not needed by a wheelchair user'

what did people do when buses had step entrances? they folded their buggies down and stored it in the rack or by their seat. theyre just lazy (and often arrogant) now

[Empired]

passengers as well can be really nasty and if you're taking 10 minutes to just get off the bus
i know where i like a lot of bus drivers dont give you a chance lol sometimes they wont even stop if its 1 person ;l rude people
and to be fair to bus drivers, they're pushed very hard to keep on schedule so THEY get in trouble for waiting if someone is taking a long time. that's also why sometimes they'll drive right past a stop even if someone wants to get on.

[October]

The local bus system here requires passengers with strollers to remove the child(ren) from the stroller, and to collapse the stroller if necessary.

I think it's a law here, federal or maybe state, that says people have to make way for those with special handicaps.

[Richie]

Wheelchairs.


This actually happened during one of my bus journeys. A bus driver told an elderly man in a wheelchair that there was no space and he'd have to wait in the rain for 20 mins for the next bus. The man in the wheelchair managed to somehow fling himself in rage, onto the edge of the bus, out of his wheelchair and sat on the side of the bus not letting the bus travel until the pram was requested to be folded up. As much as I wanted to get home, I saluted the elderly man.

[peteyt]

I'm late to the debate but wheelchair users should have priority. While it certainly might be an inconvenience if the parent has a foldable pram they can easily put the baby on their knee but obviously it's a lot different for wheelchair users.

In the same light, elderly people generally have priority seating over younger people

[Kimmy]

I think it's really selfish for people with prams to have the audacity to even suggest they should have the priority in public transport. Many prams these days can be folded over to fit into smaller margins of spaces so they could always take their child out to carry/stand and tuck it away if it came to lack of space. It's not like you can get out of your wheelchair and fold it up. It can take ten minutes to hush an awakened child, but what about the man who spent hours trying to get home because someone refused to have a little common courtesy? She has the legs and the mobility to stand with her child.

The fact that it has to rely on the good will of other people and not what you should be doing is shocking.
Wheelchair user for the win.

[GommeInc]

If anyone is interested, the appeal by First Group was granted meaning buses cannot force non-wheelchair users out of chairs reserved for wheelchair users:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-30376446

However, Mr. Paulley is raising an appeal with the Supreme Court to have the appeal overruled, which is where the real fight comes from.

[Kyle]

If anyone is interested, the appeal by First Group was granted meaning buses cannot force non-wheelchair users out of chairs reserved for wheelchair users:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-30376446

However, Mr. Paulley is raising an appeal with the Supreme Court to have the appeal overruled, which is where the real fight comes from.
The responsibility should absolutely not be on bus companies to ensure that spaces are made available for wheelchair users and if somebody refuses to move there's nothing that can be done. Why the bus company had to cough up damages is beyond me, it's not remotely their fault and the woman was within her rights. This isn't something that can be tackled within the courts because it involves valuing one person's experience above another's. Only way to sort this is to cater for both, by making buses bigger and designating space to each party. Or maybe we should have buses specifically for disabled people to get around. Wait, don't they already exist?

I feel bad for disabled people for not being able to properly participate or go about their daily lives but at some point a compromise has to be made. :/


~~from phone

[GommeInc]

The responsibility should absolutely not be on bus companies to ensure that spaces are made available for wheelchair users and if somebody refuses to move there's nothing that can be done. Why the bus company had to cough up damages is beyond me, it's not remotely their fault and the woman was within her rights. This isn't something that can be tackled within the courts because it involves valuing one person's experience above another's. Only way to sort this is to cater for both, by making buses bigger and designating space to each party. Or maybe we should have buses specifically for disabled people to get around. Wait, don't they already exist?

I feel bad for disabled people for not being able to properly participate or go about their daily lives but at some point a compromise has to be made. :/


~~from phone
It's a tricky area. You can see why the courts have been involved because what is the limit and the compromise? It ultimate lies on simply doing the right thing - the woman should just have moved in this situation as she wasn't hindered in any way and couldn't easily move given the facts of the scenario (her son was on her, sleeping - just wake him and move). The bus cannot and shouldn't play mother and move people around as it wastes time and they are just adults too.

I definitely think buses need to accommodate more people. The end first third could be almost open planned with only pull down seats for both wheelchair, walking stick, pregnant and buggy users. I'm surprised buses do not have storage these days for buggies - I swear they were a thing once :/