Sinterklaas And Zwarte Piet - Racism?

[.red-bleu.]

Sinterklaas is celebrated annually with the giving of gifts on Saint Nicholas Day (5 December) in the Netherlands and on the morning of 6 December, Saint Nicholas Day itself, in Belgium, Luxembourg, and some parts of France.

http://www.vandaagopstap.nl/images/items/Intocht-Sinterklaas-Zevenbergen_19273.jpg
​Zwarte Piet (plural Zwarte Pieten) is a companion of Sinterklaas, usually portrayed by a man in blackface with black curly hair, dressed up like a 17th-century page in colourful attire, often sporting a lace collar and a feathered cap.
The Zwarte Pieten toss candy around, a tradition supposedly originating in the story of Saint Nicholas's saving three young girls from prostitution by tossing golden coins through their window at night to pay their dowries. In recent years the roe has been absent, to adapt to modern times.

In modern adaptations for television, Sinterklaas has developed a Zwarte Piet for every function: there is a head Piet (Hoofdpiet), a navigation Piet (Wegwijspiet) to navigate the steamboat from Spain to the Netherlands, a packing Piet (Pakjespiet) to pack all the gifts, an acrobatic Piet to climb roofs and stuff presents down the chimney, or to climb down the chimneys themselves. Over the years many stories have been added, and Zwarte Piet has developed from a rather unintelligent helper into a valuable assistant.

Traditionally Zwarte Piet's face is said to be black because he is a moor from Spain. Today, some prefer to say that his face is blackened with soot, as he has to climb through chimneys to deliver his gifts. The figure of Zwarte Piet is considered by some to be racist and the character has become increasingly controversial, especially in the Netherlands, in recent years.
As such, the traditions surrounding the holiday of Sinterklaas have been the subject of numerous editorials, debates, documentaries, protests and even violent clashes at festivals.

http://www.doorbraak.eu/blog/wp-content/uploads/ZwartePiet2.jpg

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSpuX9IXy3WVaB_t8oKk7zaGDYCg-rf-ajy79ZGlU0kNPffKGQ6
Saying: Zwarte Piet must stay, otherwise take off the headscarfs (as a response on the protests)

Nevertheless, both Zwarte Piet and the holiday remain popular in the Netherlands. In a 2013 survey, 92% of the Dutch public did not perceive Zwarte Piet as racist or associate him with slavery, and 91% were opposed to altering the character's appearance.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBLBxb29maw

So what do you guys think? Racism or not? Tradition over racism?

[-:Undertaker:-]

No it isn't offensive and if anyone does find it offensive then grow the **** up, grow a pair of balls and stop crying at face paint. Western pansies.

I'm SICK of it. And if I see another Russell Brand video i'm gonna scream.


"You cannot put this in the face of people who have been oppressed, who have been slaves"

There are still slaves alive from 150 to 200 years ago you stupid ****?

[FlyingJesus]

There are slaves alive now Dan lol

[.red-bleu.]

I do think it is offensive, children are bullying dark children and naming them Zwarte Piet and stuff like that. Why don't change the skin color... Lots of people feel offended by this (children and adults), i'm sure the children won't matter if the skin is black, blue, orange or even like a syrup waffle(yes i'm serious).
http://vkphotoprovider3.vk-cdn.nl/photoprovider/artikel/12/13/2/8ccba54f850616fac60f0259ca34f996/2606147/664x374xDIMENSION_664x374/v/20141115161333/2606147.jpeg

[-:Undertaker:-]

There are slaves alive now Dan lol

Correct, there are slaves still alive now: mainly in black, asian and arab countries who still practice slavery on one another. But colonial slaves? The Dutch Kingdom abolished slavery throughout it's Empire in 1863 meaning even if you were a non-working slave at the age of 0 you'd be 151 years old.

They're all long dead, as are the Moorish in Spain the story is based upon.


I do think it is offensive, children are bullying dark children and naming them Zwarte Piet and stuff like that. Why don't change the skin color... Lots of people feel offended by this (children and adults), i'm sure the children won't matter if the skin is black, blue, orange or even like a syrup waffle(yes i'm serious).

You say most are offended by this (why would that matter anyway, there exists no right to not be offended) yet you yourself posted a 2013 poll which stated that 91% to 93% of Dutch people see nothing wrong with their tradition and don't want to change it.

As for children saying things, children say a lot of things and will always pick up on differences. You may aswell make a case for purple rain or the flying spaghetti monster if you think you can somehow abolish bullying or insults in schools. Insults are a part of life, deal with them and get on with it.


i'm sure the children won't matter if the skin is black, blue, orange

Surely that will just offend half of the Newcastle female population and people 'transitioning' to become oompa loompas?

[The Don]

Yeah, Blackface is pretty racist.

[Kyle]

This tradition is hilarious they look like gollywogs. Amazing.


~~from phone

[Empired]

That tradition was weird as heck but each to their own (A)

I don't think my opinion really matters here. White people might find it acceptable but seeing as it's involving blackface it shouldn't be up to white people. That's like me going into a café, seeing someone else order cake for themselves and saying "Waiter, cancel that cake. I'm on a diet."

If a lot of people are getting offended, upset, or even bullied as you said .red-bleu. because of this tradition it probably shouldn't be allowed to continue.

[-:Undertaker:-]

That tradition was weird as heck but each to their own (A)

I don't think my opinion really matters here. White people might find it acceptable but seeing as it's involving blackface it shouldn't be up to white people. That's like me going into a café, seeing someone else order cake for themselves and saying "Waiter, cancel that cake. I'm on a diet."

If a lot of people are getting offended, upset, or even bullied as you said .red-bleu. because of this tradition it probably shouldn't be allowed to continue.

So the perpetually offended should dictate to the rest of the population what is right and what is wrong? Interestingly when it actually comes to these types of debates or issues, it is usually white, liberal, weak western men who are the ones getting their knickers in a twist on behalf of everybody else.

And the Netherlands is the home of the Dutch people, who are mainly white. It is up to them - and they see no probem say the polls cited.

[Empired]

So the perpetually offended should dictate to the rest of the population what is right and what is wrong? Interestingly when it actually comes to these types of debates or issues, it is usually white, liberal, weak western men who are the ones getting their knickers in a twist on behalf of everybody else.

And the Netherlands is the home of the Dutch people, who are mainly white. It is up to them - and they see no probem say the polls cited.
No sorry, maybe I didn't make my point as clearly as I could have. I meant seeing as this could be seen as offensive to black people, I think it should be them who gets to make the decision on whether or not this is racist.

[The Don]

So the perpetually offended should dictate to the rest of the population what is right and what is wrong? In Uganda, the home of the Ugandan people, who are mainly straight. It is up to them - and they see no problem with tough prison sentences for homosexual acts #danlogic

[-:Undertaker:-]

No sorry, maybe I didn't make my point as clearly as I could have. I meant seeing as this could be seen as offensive to black people, I think it should be them who gets to make the decision on whether or not this is racist.

So a minority - who we haven't even established are offended anyway - should dictate the traditions of a country to the rest of the population?


So the perpetually offended should dictate to the rest of the population what is right and what is wrong? In Uganda, the home of the Ugandan people, who are mainly straight. It is up to them - and they see no problem with tough prison sentences for homosexual acts #danlogic

Oh yes, because prison sentences and a Dutch Christmas tradition are exactly the same thing.

[Empired]

So a minority - who we haven't even established are offended anyway - should dictate the traditions of a country to the rest of the population?
I'm not saying "black people are offended so it's racist", I'm saying IF they are offended then it SHOULD BE thought of as racist. And yes, in this case they should.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I'm not saying "black people are offended so it's racist", I'm saying IF they are offended then it SHOULD BE thought of as racist. And yes, in this case they should.

So in other words, you support the criminalisation of causing offence.

I assume you also support censoring pictures of the Prophet too then in western countries because it offends the followers of Islam? Right?

[The Don]

So a minority - who we haven't even established are offended anyway - should dictate the traditions of a country to the rest of the population?



Oh yes, because prison sentences and a Dutch Christmas tradition are exactly the same thing.

You're arguing that the moral decision of a majority are infallible and unquestionable. We decide what is a crime from the majority's moral viewpoints. You're an idiot if you can't seen the glaring similarities.

[-:Undertaker:-]

You're arguing that the moral decision of a majority are infallible and unquestionable. We decide what is a crime from the majority's moral viewpoints. You're an idiot if you can't seen the glaring similarities.

Actually i'm not arguing anything of the sort, i'm arguing that the moral opinions of a small minority shouldn't dictate to everybody else. AKA if you want to black up and take part in this tradition (as most Dutch do) then you should be free to do so, and screw those who claim offence.

The comparison with Uganda has, to mirror your phrase, no logic. Is being offended at all similar to being locked up in a prison? No.

[The Don]

And the Netherlands is the home of the Dutch people, who are mainly white. It is up to them - and they see no probem say the polls cited.

You appeared to be arguing that here. Do yourself a favour and read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

[-:Undertaker:-]

You appeared to be arguing that here. Do yourself a favour and read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

It is up to them if they continue celebrating the tradition, yes. That's a little different from creating any laws, don't you agree?

Or would you criminalise this tradition? It sounds to me like you would, in which case why should a minority dictate to a majority?

[The Don]

It is up to them if they continue celebrating the tradition, yes. That's a little different from creating any laws, don't you agree?

Or would you criminalise this tradition? It sounds to me like you would, in which case why should a minority dictate to a majority?

Nope, nowhere have I said that it should be criminalised. That is another one of your poor debating tactics, arguing against false assumptions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faulty_generalization
You previously argued that because the majority of people (is this even the case?) think something, it is automatically correct. I provided an example of that poor logic in work and now you've contrived some argument out of thin air. Do yourself a favour and gloss over the fallacy pages on Wikipedia, perhaps then you might do a little bit better in your debates.

[.red-bleu.]

The makers of the biggest sinterklaas tv show try to keep everyone happy... a black sint showed up today :rolleyes:
http://images0.tcdn.nl/binnenland/article23411550.ece/BINARY/q/Zwarte+sint1.jpg

[GommeInc]

It's not racist. Nothing about them is racist. Children calling other children Zwarte Piet are racist, not the thing they are being called. It's like going up to someone from Kenya and saying "You're a Zimbabwean" which apparently means Zimbabweans are racist. Calling someone from Kenya a Zimbabwean isn't racist - it's ignorant, racisms forgotten cousin twice removed. It simply doesn't make sense and if anything supports the argument that people really don't know what racism is and use it lazily as an excuse without really understanding what it is.

If anything it's out of date, but that's about it. Giving children gifts isn't a social negative. If the Zwarte Piets were rushing down chimneys having sex with the children insinuating they're child rapists then it would be racist as it is giving a negative image of black people - suggesting white people obey the law and aren't child rapists. But no, they're doing something positive. It's like going up to a black person who is good at basketball and saying "Why are you people good at basketball?" The intentions behind the question are positive - the only socially inept people to get offended are those who really shouldn't be let outside for fear of being offended or people trying to make a case out of nothing.

So in short - no they're not racist. If anything they're out of date. The intentions are good - they are Santa's helpers spreading joy to children of all race, creed and background. Nothing is wrong with that.

[The Don]

It's not racist. Nothing about them is racist. Children calling other children Zwarte Piet are racist, not the thing they are being called. It's like going up to someone from Kenya and saying "You're a Zimbabwean" which apparently means Zimbabweans are racist. Calling someone from Kenya a Zimbabwean isn't racist - it's ignorant, racisms forgotten cousin twice removed. It simply doesn't make sense and if anything supports the argument that people really don't know what racism is and use it lazily as an excuse without really understanding what it is.

If anything it's out of date, but that's about it. Giving children gifts isn't a social negative. If the Zwarte Piets were rushing down chimneys having sex with the children insinuating they're child rapists then it would be racist as it is giving a negative image of black people - suggesting white people obey the law and aren't child rapists. But no, they're doing something positive. It's like going up to a black person who is good at basketball and saying "Why are you people good at basketball?" The intentions behind the question are positive - the only socially inept people to get offended are those who really shouldn't be let outside for fear of being offended or people trying to make a case out of nothing.

So in short - no they're not racist. If anything they're out of date. The intentions are good - they are Santa's helpers spreading joy to children of all race, creed and background. Nothing is wrong with that.

What do you call dressing up with exaggerated features of black people then? ie huge red lips and coal black skin

[GommeInc]

What do you call dressing up with exaggerated features of black people then? ie huge red lips and coal black skin
Stupid ;)

Secondly, do all black people have huge red lips and coal black skin? If you make the connection you yourself are probably racist. The thing that you're complaining about is only racist if it makes sweeping statements and/or promotes national/white superiority and demotes black culture and/or other nationalities - often mocking them. Giving presents isn't racial and from what I've been told by French, Belgian and Dutch friends the Zwarte Piets are not mocked not trying to promote that white people are better. Heck, if anything it just shows Saint Nicolas is fat and lazy and does no work while they are busy meeting children and doing all the good things. Hardly racist.

[The Don]

Stupid ;)

Secondly, do all black people have huge red lips and coal black skin? If you make the connection you yourself are probably racist. The thing that you're complaining about is only racist if it makes sweeping statements and/or promotes national/white superiority and demotes black culture and/or other nationalities - often mocking them. Giving presents isn't racial and from what I've been told by French, Belgian and Dutch friends the Zwarte Piets are not mocked not trying to promote that white people are better. Heck, if anything it just shows Saint Nicolas is fat and lazy and does no work while they are busy meeting children and doing all the good things. Hardly racist.

No hence why i listed them as examples of EXAGGERATED features which are traditionally associated with blackface and are used heavily when people dress up as Zwarte Piets....

[GommeInc]

No hence why i listed them as examples of EXAGGERATED features which are traditionally associated with blackface and are used heavily when people dress up as Zwarte Piets....
What on earth is blackface and how does that make Zwarte Piets racist? Also, Zwarte Piet doesn't or shouldn't have exaggerated features - just black make-up and red lipstick. In fact, they appear to just wear red lipstick covering their lips rather than going all out - like Pantomime Dames and actual exaggerated lips. Racism is again about some sort of superiority over another race and putting down said race. Giving out presents is hardly putting down that race.

[The Don]

What on earth is blackface and how does that make Zwarte Piets racist? Also, Zwarte Piet doesn't or shouldn't have exaggerated features - just black make-up and red lipstick. In fact, they appear to just wear red lipstick covering their lips rather than going all out - like Pantomime Dames and actual exaggerated lips. Racism is again about some sort of superiority over another race and putting down said race. Giving out presents is hardly putting down that race.

Do you honestly not know what blackface is? Do you really not get how coal black skin and bright red lips are exaggerated features of black people?

By your definition of racism this picture isn't racist (even though it clearly is)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/55/Picaninny_Freeze.jpg

[GommeInc]

Do you honestly not know what blackface is? Do you really not get how coal black skin and bright red lips are exaggerated features of black people?

By your definition of racism this picture isn't racist (even though it clearly is)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/55/Picaninny_Freeze.jpg
You seem to not really understand what racism is. You need more context than a picture of reproduction tin box. In the context of Zwarte Piet it's not racist. If children are calling black children Zwarte Piet then they are prejudice until they start belittling that prejudice with phrases like "...and they're poor, useless and smelly", which becomes racism (belittling, social negatives etc). The thing that they're being called isn't racist in itself.

The tradition itself isn't racist by any definition - it's an odd, (perhaps) outdated tradition much like Santa in general who is perceived as a white Finnish gentleman of stout girth when in reality he was Greek (or Turkish as he would be now), didn't wear red woolly clothing or probably know what a reindeer was. If anything modern day Christmas has ruined him with Coca Cola red colouring (I think he was either meant to be gold or green), eastern European whiteness and very little charity to children when he traditionally was meant to be charitable in general. Toys aren't useful in the grand scheme of things.

If anything, you should be arguing the whole Santa Claus thing is pretty creepy and has been absorbed by capitalist white culture. Us whites have a thing for stealing Turkish/Greek people and making them white.

[The Don]

You seem to not really understand what racism is. You need more context than a picture of reproduction tin box. In the context of Zwarte Piet it's not racist. If children are calling black children Zwarte Piet then they are prejudice until they start belittling that prejudice with phrases like "...and they're poor, useless and smelly", which becomes racism (belittling, social negatives etc). The thing that they're being called isn't racist in itself.

The tradition itself isn't racist by any definition - it's an odd, (perhaps) outdated tradition much like Santa in general who is perceived as a white Finnish gentleman of stout girth when in reality he was Greek (or Turkish as he would be now), didn't wear red woolly clothing or probably know what a reindeer was. If anything modern day Christmas has ruined him with Coca Cola red colouring (I think he was either meant to be gold or green), eastern European whiteness and very little charity to children when he traditionally was meant to be charitable in general. Toys aren't useful in the grand scheme of things.

If anything, you should be arguing the whole Santa Claus thing is pretty creepy and has been absorbed by capitalist white culture. Us whites have a thing for stealing Turkish/Greek people and making them white.

Not sure why you keep banging on about little kids calling each other names? the whole debate this thread is about is whether dressing up as zwarte piet is racist. If you don't think that image I posted is racist then there's literally no point in us continuing this discussion because clearly we have two different ideas as to what racism is.

[GommeInc]

Not sure why you keep banging on about little kids calling each other names? the whole debate this thread is about is whether dressing up as zwarte piet is racist. If you don't think that image I posted is racist then there's literally no point in us continuing this discussion because clearly we have two different ideas as to what racism is.
Because it's an issue that has arisen. Children have been calling black children Zwarte Piet according to one member.

Racism is pretty precise, although I have to admit Golliwogs are a grey area. I just label them as creepy and a bit stupid.

[-:Undertaker:-]

You seem to not really understand what racism is. You need more context than a picture of reproduction tin box. In the context of Zwarte Piet it's not racist. If children are calling black children Zwarte Piet then they are prejudice until they start belittling that prejudice with phrases like "...and they're poor, useless and smelly", which becomes racism (belittling, social negatives etc). The thing that they're being called isn't racist in itself.

Of course he doesn't understand what racism is, hence why he throws it around like confetti whenever he can. He's just another self-hating soppy westerner who is terrified of causing offence. Ironically, the complaints of offence caused by in large usually come from the likes of The Don and white liberal politicians rather than the supposed discriminated against groups anyway.

The truth is that these are crude costumes (not professional) and they seek to replicate common body features of black people: that they have larger lips than whites do. Just as if you wanted to dress up as a Han Chinaman you'd seek to have your eyes made smaller, or as a Red Indian your skin coloured in a reddish tint. That's not discrimination or offence, that's just a ******* costume lmao. The quote in my signature is very apt if you ask me.

[The Don]

Of course he doesn't understand what racism is, hence why he throws it around like confetti whenever he can. He's just another self-hating soppy westerner who is terrified of causing offence. Ironically, the complaints of offence caused by in large usually come from the likes of The Don and white liberal politicians rather than the supposed discriminated against groups anyway.

The truth is that these are crude costumes (not professional) and they seek to replicate common body features of black people: that they have larger lips than whites do. Just as if you wanted to dress up as a Han Chinaman you'd seek to have your eyes made smaller, or as a Red Indian your skin coloured in a reddish tint. That's not discrimination or offence, that's just a ******* costume lmao. The quote in my signature is very apt if you ask me.

Yes because i'm totally white. You're a moron Dan and the only person who trods along this forum sprouting the race card all the time is you when you say 'waycist' in your snide little comments to downplay whatever xenophobic **** you're talking about on that particular day.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Yes because i'm totally white. You're a moron Dan and the only person who trods along this forum sprouting the race card all the time is you when you say 'waycist' in your snide little comments to downplay whatever xenophobic **** you're talking about on that particular day.

Yeah yeah sure I do.

Debate about immigration, who makes it about race? You do.
An innocent Dutch tradition, who pulls out the race card? You do.

You've even managed to pull out the xenophobia card now lmao. Well done.

[The Don]

Yeah yeah sure I do.

Debate about immigration, who makes it about race? You do.
An innocent Dutch tradition, who pulls out the race card? You do.

You've even managed to pull out the xenophobia card now lmao. Well done.

IN A DEBATE ABOUT RACISM MADE BY ANOTHER USER. Are you for real? get a grip

[The Don]

http://i.imgur.com/q6ONWuZ.jpg

[benzoberzerk]

The word racism sure gets thrown around a lot. Is this custom intended to be racist? I don't think so. Is the average dutch citizen who celebrates it a racist? I don't think so either. That, however, doesn't mean people can't be offended by and subjected to discrimination because of it. The real question is whether the problem should be dealt with on every instance that this might occur (which is impossible) or on a more basic level, in this case by changing the tradition.

In Sweden we have a traditional Christmas song about a "gingerbread man from the gingerbread land". One year there was an incident in a school in which an immigrant kid was bullied and the bullies used terms such as "gingerbread man" to emphasize that he was foreign. The school responded by banning the song from being sung at the last day of term. This naturally created a public outrage and a debate regarding whether the song is racist or not, which it clearly isn't. Does that mean it was wrong to ban it? No.

SO, just because something isn't racist in itself doesn't mean it can't be used as such. In the case of Zwarte Piet, which undoubtedly has upset a lot of people belonging to a group that is already underprivileged by being a minority, i personally can't see how keeping such a tradition is defendable. This, however, is of course very subjective. How much is the integrity and dignity of a few people worth compared to a custom that's become completely integrated in the dutch culture?