Rare Values Reform (again).

[Samantha]

http://www.habboxforum.com/showthread.php?t=814535

In September the Rare Values Reform began and the feedback thread for it gained both positive and negative response, but also constructive posts on how to improve it and cater for more Habbo players. Some feedback included items not currently allowed in the Market Place such as all teleport designs and the Super Rares that are rarely traded if at all (Parasol, Super Rare Yellow Rug, Infobus etc.) The other day I asked Laura about it, whether it was still being completed or whether it should have been done by now. She was under the impression that it had been finished! Sorry, but it looks like someone got bored half way through and decided to stop completing it.

It's been months since the feedback thread was made, months since the thread asking for help was made and pretty much nothing has been done. We are still missing near enough every teleporter available, and when they can't be put in the Market Place it's annoying to not have that place to find correct values for it - we have to reply on friends or shop prices to assume whether they're actually valued correctly.

Another problem I've found is that you still haven't added SUPER RARES that are hardly traded (the super rare Floor Rug for example), Pear Tree, Orange Tree, need I go on? The other day there was a Floor Rug in the Market Place - I wasn't sure on the value at all and found neither was Habbox. Imagine that was just a random person trying to find a value, you've lost them right there. This is what's happening because it frankly seems someone can't be arsed to do their job. Yeah someone can be away... for 3 weeks, what about the rest of them?

Weirdly enough though, actually knowing furniture names work - http://habbox.com/#!/Rares/view/Floor%20Rug that's the SUPER RARE rug, you can access it by putting its name in. However, wait one second, WHO VALUED IT AT 2C? On the 6th October someone decreased the value by 342c, why has this not been picked up on? Probably because you can't even see it unless you have the furniture name...

The reform has been going on for 3 months for goodness sake... let's say 2 months as I know going back to university, school, etc. can encourage away time across Habbox, but it should not take that long? I was under the impression that we would actually be listened to and furniture added would be done pretty much straight away (coming from -:Undertaker:-;). I can see this is not the case, very far from it lol. So what's happening?

Another thing I found, values are now listed by actual value so 0-1000c or whatever it is - why do you still have categories visible on the site that are empty e.g. http://habbox.com/#!/Rares/Category/The%20Lost%20World%20Collectables? If there is a reason why wouldn't it be better to hide them first? As I was looking for the Totem value and found it wasn't even in that category. Speaking of categories http://habbox.com/#!/Rares/view/Yellow+Sleeping+Bag in the category 0-19c and it was updated on the 22nd November - 3 weeks and it hasn't been move category, why not? If normal staff cannot move them, do you have a thread for this and if so has it been reported? It might be worth having a look through all the categories to make sure everything fits!

Finally, the Values Department - why are you having values of 1c posters and not values of actual rares or furniture you need? Surely this should be nearly done, you actually have staff now, so that can't be a problem either.

[Kyle]

The case with rare values seems to have evolved in the last year or so into updating grossly outdated values (like posters and other items that haven't been released for a long time and are easy to find) as a priority over rare items that don't get traded very frequently. Those that update the values of rares should be individuals who are in a position to see them traded and to note the value of those trades, not people who check the marketplace every saturday night for a few quick additions to their value quota.

As a rare trader I wouldn't particularly care that 12 different plasto items have changed value by a few coins if an actual rare item I was looking for wasn't even displayed on the site. People need to see these items you've removed. They need to see the fluctuations in price over the year if they're trading in bulk, they need to see what the usual price of an item even if there are 100 in the marketplace because any furniture is still subject to price manipulation. Habbox Rare Values can still be the go-to guide on furniture prices if it wants to be, it just needs to be less restrictive in what it displays -- even if the staff aren't updating them!

[James]

Can we have teleports added to the values? Like the good ones that aren't released often. eg. Mall, outhouse, star, etc

[-:Undertaker:-]

I know that you don't agree with the reforms in the slightest Sam, and I have to say that my mind has been waivering on whether we were right to get rid of all sections, because although we cannot handle the number of items on the database anymore (and that has been clear for some time) it is also very hard to manually keep moving items around as well as the number of people who have been asking for the older categories to be returned. If the system automatically moved items based on price, that'd have been much easier but it doesn't... meaning it is a pain and very time consuming to keep swapping items around.

In terms of updates, I have noticed that staff have been updating older items that are hidden in the database too as there is obviously confusion as whenever you type items into the panel you'll get everything showing: which makes it even more confusing than it already is, hence why I won't penalise staff for getting these things wrong. That all said though in relation to values being updated, on one hand we're being criticised for not having all the values displayed but on the other we're being criticised at not having all the thousands of values up to date - Kyle obviously above prefers having all listed even if not all too accurate, but my problem is that even if we add all items back to the database we're still going to be criticised for slip ups like not having the Totem Pole accurate. I've said before, the department cannot handle and hasn't been able to handle for years now the number of values... so it's a catch-22 situation.

I would say however that the number of values being updated in recent weeks since the relaunch has been rather high, which again goes to prove my point that even with the highest staff number we've had in a long time, it's still a mighty struggle to keep up with the mass of items we have under us.

Would users prefer us to list all categories with warnings that all values may not be up to date? I'm interested to know.


On the 6th October someone decreased the value by 342c, why has this not been picked up on?

Because there are thousands and thousands of rares just as when I log on to some of the Content pages (for example the Wikipedia) it's out of date or wasn't completed for a long period of time. The more Habbox adds to its database, with less and less staff, the more we'll struggle to stay on top.

I have made this point before, as someone who has been in and out of the department since 2006, we used to have 25 staff back then updating something like 1/20th of the amount of values we have now, and today we're at staff numbers of around 5 to 7. See the workload problem?


Probably because you can't even see it unless you have the furniture name...

That will be a panel issue then, if the item is showing on search but isn't showing in the public categories then there's something wrong there.

[Samantha]

I know that you don't agree with the reforms in the slightest Sam, and I have to say that my mind has been waivering on whether we were right to get rid of all sections, because although we cannot handle the number of items on the database anymore (and that has been clear for some time) it is also very hard to manually keep moving items around as well as the number of people who have been asking for the older categories to be returned. If the system automatically moved items based on price, that'd have been much easier but it doesn't... meaning it is a pain and very time consuming to keep swapping items around.

In terms of updates, I have noticed that staff have been updating older items that are hidden in the database too as there is obviously confusion as whenever you type items into the panel you'll get everything showing: which makes it even more confusing than it already is, hence why I won't penalise staff for getting these things wrong. That all said though in relation to values being updated, on one hand we're being criticised for not having all the values displayed but on the other we're being criticised at not having all the thousands of values up to date - Kyle obviously above prefers having all listed even if not all too accurate, but my problem is that even if we add all items back to the database we're still going to be criticised for slip ups like not having the Totem Pole accurate. I've said before, the department cannot handle and hasn't been able to handle for years now the number of values... so it's a catch-22 situation.



Because there are thousands and thousands of rares.



That will be a panel issue then, if the item is showing on search but isn't showing in the public categories then there's something wrong there.

Have I said that before? I'm honestly wondering now as I do see why you've had to do the reforms :P. I don't think some items should need reporting on if they're often a similar price all the time - namely things like Pura, some floor rugs etc.

Some things you've said, I understand you can't value 1000s of items accurately, but we asked months ago now for certain items (mainly teleporters and super rares) to be put on the site and they haven't been. I understand it's tedious to move everything again and again, but teleporters, room hoppers etc. cannot be traded in the Market Place so should be on surely?

The Totem Pole on the other hand - when you search Totem you will see the full pole and it's rather easy to just update that to the collective value. I'm not criticizing that it wasn't accurate per say - it was more the full one looked like it was cheaper to buy together.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Have I said that before? I'm honestly wondering now as I do see why you've had to do the reforms :P. I don't think some items should need reporting on if they're often a similar price all the time - namely things like Pura, some floor rugs etc.

Some things you've said, I understand you can't value 1000s of items accurately, but we asked months ago now for certain items (mainly teleporters and super rares) to be put on the site and they haven't been. I understand it's tedious to move everything again and again, but teleporters, room hoppers etc. cannot be traded in the Market Place so should be on surely?

The problem is though, there's always conflict over what we should and shouldn't value.. some people are upset when say the Gothic is removed (because they like Gothic or Gothic has suddenly drastically changed price) and it is the same for the other ranges like Iced, Pods, Rugs. It's a struggle knowing what to value let alone to having to keep manually moving items about: plus there's then the issue of the more items on the pages in public, the more we have to update/manually move. It's a nightmare.

All this said though, would you and others feel it would be better to have all categories shown again although with disclaimers that the values may not be up to date, at least on some of the more obsure categories? I'm open to make changes if that is what our users want!!

If the above is to be the case though for the future, we're still going to be criticised for having values far off the mark that haven't been updated in a while... to which my only solution would be that the end of very month the department published how many values it has updated over that given month.


The Totem Pole on the other hand - when you search Totem you will see the full pole and it's rather easy to just update that to the collective value. I'm not criticizing that it wasn't accurate per say - it was more the full one looked like it was cheaper to buy together.

It is worth reminding people that in the past sets/collections haven't always been the same price as the items added individually togetherfor the reason that - strangely enough - sets and collections usually in the past have gone for cheaper than the items alone.

That said, if it has been overlooked by staff... it's an understandable mistake. My memory of items back on the British hotel was superb and I can still tell you what items were back in 2006, then 2007 etc (hence why I added it all to the Wikipedia :P) but the amount of furniture nowadays is staggering and with much less interest in Rare Values and trading in general nowadays it is much harder to find anyone with a comprehensive knowledge of all the items: there's simply too many.

[Samantha]

The problem is though, there's always conflict over what we should and shouldn't value.. some people are upset when say the Gothic is removed (because they like Gothic or Gothic has suddenly drastically changed price) and it is the same for the other ranges like Iced, Pods, Rugs. It's a struggle knowing what to value let alone to having to keep manually moving items about: plus there's then the issue of the more items on the pages in public, the more we have to update/manually move. It's a nightmare.

All this said though, would you and others feel it would be better to have all categories shown again although with disclaimers that the values may not be up to date, at least on some of the more obsure categories? I'm open to make changes if that is what our users want!!



It is worth reminding people that in the past sets/collections haven't always been the same price as the items added individually togetherfor the reason that - strangely enough - sets and collections usually in the past have gone for cheaper than the items alone.

That said, if it has been overlooked by staff... it's an understandable mistake. My memory of items back on the British hotel was superb and I can still tell you what items were back in 2006, then 2007 etc (hence why I added it all to the Wikipedia :P) but the amount of furniture nowadays is staggering and with much less interest in Rare Values and trading in general nowadays it is much harder to find anyone with a comprehensive knowledge of all the items: there's simply too many.

I get what you mean, I believe things like Area, Voodoo etc. should be valued to an extent whereas some like Posters/Flags shouldn't.

If you were to put all categories back, I think it'd be an idea bringing back the moderation process where staff approve/deny values that are submitted. The disclaimers would be there, but opening public valuation (not just the forum) and allowing members to update values and then obviously staff could approve/deny them. With the disclaimers, the updating process of staff (approving and denying) would mean that it's a more casual department and you aren't constantly worrying on the 1000s of item's values. At least then you get a variety of people updating values they know - and as long as you have a staff base that know their values then the negatives are outweighed by the positives.

I don't mean just scrap the department and make it public, as I think having people to edit furniture, manage the values etc. are important with someone to overlook it, but I believe it'd be easier to do if it was public to submit values. However, as I don't think it'd be appropriate to give everyone the permissions, you could ask who would like to help out.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I get what you mean, I believe things like Area, Voodoo etc. should be valued to an extent whereas some like Posters/Flags shouldn't.

If you were to put all categories back, I think it'd be an idea bringing back the moderation process where staff approve/deny values that are submitted. The disclaimers would be there, but opening public valuation (not just the forum) and allowing members to update values and then obviously staff could approve/deny them. With the disclaimers, the updating process of staff (approving and denying) would mean that it's a more casual department and you aren't constantly worrying on the 1000s of item's values. At least then you get a variety of people updating values they know - and as long as you have a staff base that know their values then the negatives are outweighed by the positives.

I don't mean just scrap the department and make it public, as I think having people to edit furniture, manage the values etc. are important with someone to overlook it, but I believe it'd be easier to do if it was public to submit values. However, as I don't think it'd be appropriate to give everyone the permissions, you could ask who would like to help out.

A public submission system with staff updating as well as approving public suggestions would actually be a really good idea, the more eyes on mistakes or values that are out of date could only be a good thing - well the second best thing next to more staff. :P

Would this need extra coding I wonder or is it something that could be added to the current panel? It'd be interesting to see what a Site Coder or General Management make of this as it would be a huge help plus would be another way to have more engagement as a department with the public at large.

[Samantha]

A public submission system with staff updating as well as approving public suggestions would actually be a really good idea, the more eyes on mistakes or values that are out of date could only be a good thing - well the second best thing next to more staff. :P

Would this need extra coding I wonder or is it something that could be added to the current panel? It'd be interesting to see what a Site Coder or General Management make of this as it would be a huge help plus would be another way to have more engagement as a department with the public at large.

Well technically, if it still exists whoever wants to help just needs the Rare Values perms normal staff had before and Head Rare Values Reporters before that. So they'd just search for a rare and ask to update it then it'll be approved/denied.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Well technically, if it still exists whoever wants to help just needs the Rare Values perms normal staff had before and Head Rare Values Reporters before that. So they'd just search for a rare and ask to update it then it'll be approved/denied.

Or it could be a feature to simply extend to all Habbox.com user accounts?

[Kyle]

yes - displaying all categories with disclaimers that the items have not been updated since X time would be a good way to go. just make sure it's actually visible and you don't have to click anything to actually access the last date(s) of update like you do currently.

yh public update is a good idea but i think thecurrent price update interface will be slightly confusing to newcomers

[Samantha]

-:Undertaker:-; do you have any more progress on this as of yet? I understand it's Christmas so I don't expect there will be massive amounts happening! However, I think keeping us in the loop a bit more might be worthwhile :).

[-:Undertaker:-]

-:Undertaker:-; do you have any more progress on this as of yet? I understand it's Christmas so I don't expect there will be massive amounts happening! However, I think keeping us in the loop a bit more might be worthwhile :).

General Management are in agreement from what I understand about the public engagement idea (adding it to Habbox.com accounts - provided there's no unseen problems) so we'll hopefully see something come of it in the New Year. As you said though, it'll be pushed in 2015 rather than now as it is the holidays and my exam period is approaching within the next two to three weeks, as well as what is going on across Habbox in the next few weeks (CW).

So essentially approved, although won't happen just yet. That's all I have to say at the moment.