Britain STILL paying for child benefits for 34,000 children across the EU

[scottish]

- Child benefit paid to 20,660 families with 34,199 children outside the UK
- Two thirds of payments are sent to Poland, for 22,456 children
- The enforcement of EU rules costing the British taxpayer £30million-a-year
- David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg all say payments should end
- But agreement is needed with all of the 27 other EU member states
- Tories promise renegotiation before a referendum by the end of 2017
- It means action to tackle benefits being exported could be years off
- German Chancellor Angela Merkel due in London tomorrow for talks

Britain is still paying child benefit for 34,000 children who live elsewhere in the European Union, despite every major political party wanting to stop the handouts.
David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg have repeatedly called for end to money being sent abroad by EU migrants working in the UK who leave their children in their home country, two-thirds of which are in Poland.
But with any deal on scrapping the rules which force Britain to export benefits far from certain, it will continue to cost taxpayers up to £30million every year until an agreement can be reached with all of the 27 other EU member states.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/01/06/2472C72300000578-2896308-image-a-3_1420536012794.jpg

Mr Cameron is due to hold talks with German Chancellor Angela Merkel tomorrow when she visits London.
They will tour the British Museum before meeting in Downing Street, when the Tory plan for a renegotiation of Britain's membership of the EU will be on the agenda.
The Prime Minister has made clear that tackling benefits for migrants, especially those exported to families in other countries, will be a key demand.
Under EU rules, the benefit has to be paid to European nationals who are working in Britain and paying National Insurance – even if their families are based abroad.
Latest figures obtained by MailOnline reveals that child benefit is paid to 20,660 families with 34,199 children living outside Britain.

Child benefit is paid at £20.30 a week for the first child and £13.40 for every other child, regardless of parental income.
It means the total bill for children living overseas could be up to £30million-a-year, although under the EU rules not all awards are made at the full UK rates.
According to figures for September 2014 obtained by MailOnline under a Freedom of Information request, the total number of claims has risen slightly since December 2013. However, the numbers down down by around a sixth since the general election in 2010.
Amazingly, two-thirds of all claims are made for children in Poland.
Claims from Romania and Bulgaria have risen sharply in the past four years, as work curbs were lifted at the start of 2014.

There were 213 claims for 279 children in Bulgaria in September, up from just 79 claims for 113 children in July 2010.
Similarly, the number of claims from Romania rose from 75 to 236, covering 404 children.
Mr Cameron has made tackling the problem a central aim of his plans to renegotiate Britain's membership of the EU if he remains as Prime Minister after May's election.
But his promised in-out referendum is not due to take place until the end of 2017, meaning any breakthrough on stopping the payments remains years off.
Speaking on Sunday, Mr Cameron he told BBC One's Andrew Marr show: 'We need are changes that are good for Britain and good for Europe, they do involve treaty change and proper, full-on treaty change for that matter.'
He added: 'Crucially, you don't get child benefit in respect to children that you leave at home with your, your family in other countries.'
The comments came almost a year to the day since he made the same argument on the same programme.
In January 2014 Mr Cameron said it was 'wrong' that Britain paid child benefit for Polish workers for their 'family back at home in Poland'.
The comments attracted a furious response from Polish foreign minister Radoslaw Sikorski who tweeted: 'If Britain gets our taxpayers, shouldn't it also pay their benefits? Why should Polish taxpayers subsidise British taxpayers' children?'
He added: 'UK social security rules apply to all resident EU citizens. No need to stigmatise Poles. What about British children abroad?'

In November last year, Labour's Rachel Reeves used an article on MailOnline to set out her party's approach to curbing benefits for migrants.
It included 'ending child benefit and child tax credits from being sent abroad'.
Lib Dem leader Mr Clegg also backs the idea, and has gone further, suggesting that until the payments can be stopped, Polish parents who claim child benefit for their families in their home country should not receive the same amount as British workers.
The Deputy Prime Minister has ordered officials to find a legal way to slash the ‘absurd’ payments made for children who do not live in the UK.
He said it was not fair that Britain pays £80-a-month per child, but in Poland child benefit is worth only £18.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/01/06/246970B200000578-0-image-a-2_1420537832234.jpg

Thoughts?

I think it's ridiculous, why were they even being paid in the first place? soon as they leave the UK all benefits should be stopped.

[AgnesIO]

It is useful to post the source of an article.

Assuming the first image comes from the source, for everyone else's reference this is - shockingly - the Daily Mail.

Oh and one other useful piece of information, £30m is shocking - it is what the NHS spends.. every 2.3 hours.

Don't think I'll lose any sleep on this one.

(You could also compare it to what our government spends... every ten minutes).

[scottish]

Correct, DM.

And whether it's 300m or 3k, it's still absurd to be paying for children who aren't even inside the country.

[AgnesIO]

Correct, DM.

And whether it's 300m or 3k, it's still absurd to be paying for children who aren't even inside the country.

I agree. But you can do the same in any other EU Country.

Not saying it is right, but this is sensationalist ******** (expected by the Daily Mail), which is designed to make uneducated people angry thinking that £30m is worth anything on a government level.

[scottish]

I'm sure everyone knows 30m is nothing, but it's the principle behind it, the amount is immaterial :P

[AgnesIO]

I'm sure everyone knows 30m is nothing, but it's the principle behind it, the amount is immaterial :P

I agree, principally it is wrong.

The Daily Mail article makes a point that it is costing (and I quote :P ): "the British taxpayer £30million-a-year". Clearly, to the DM the amount isn't immaterial :L

[Hannah]

While the DM has its reputation and is keeping to it, it really is ridiculous that taxes are going towards child benefits of children who aren't even here - just because they are part of the EU.

Just because a parent has chosen to find a job in Britain, we are expected to have money deducted from earned wages to fund their children elsewhere.

There seems to be more cons to being in the EU than pros when it comes to money.

[AgnesIO]

While the DM has its reputation and is keeping to it, it really is ridiculous that taxes are going towards child benefits of children who aren't even here - just because they are part of the EU.

Just because a parent has chosen to find a job in Britain, we are expected to have money deducted from earned wages to fund their children elsewhere.

There seems to be more cons to being in the EU than pros when it comes to money.

Indeed, but I still wouldn't worry too much about us squandering 10 minutes worth of income every year. That's like someone on minimum wage wasting £1 a year by dropping it down a drain.

[Hannah]

You keep returning to how little the amount is in the grand scheme of things - which it certainly is - but as mentioned above it's more of a principal issue.

That money could easily be spent in other ways, despite it not being much in comparison to that spent on NHS for example, which could benefit the lives of people who are actually here and somewhat deserving of it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AgnesIO]

You keep returning to how little the amount is in the grand scheme of things - which it certainly is - but as mentioned above it's more of a principal issue.

That money could easily be spent in other ways, despite it not being much in comparison to that spent on NHS for example, which could benefit the lives of people who are actually here and somewhat deserving of it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I agree, we could add it to our Foreign Aid budget.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Whilst we are 'EU citizens' as well as British subjects, I am afraid that a bloke from Romania or Germany has as much right to enter this country and increasingly has the same rights to take from the British pot as you do: despite this being our country and not theirs. With increased EU integration, as is specified in the treaties, expect more and more policies such as welfare, social security, pensions, healthcare, education etc to also become an 'EU competence' over time and it'll continue and continue: with of course the wealthier western European countries picking up the huge bill as has always been the case.

Unless we leave and join Switzerland, Norway, Russia and the Commonwealth (India, AZ, NZ, Africa, Canada etc) in the bigger world beyond Euroland.


I agree. But you can do the same in any other EU Country.

Not saying it is right, but this is sensationalist ******** (expected by the Daily Mail), which is designed to make uneducated people angry thinking that £30m is worth anything on a government level.

Why is it that whenever a story like this rightly comes to our attention, all you and others can shout about is the Daily Mail or that the amount in the grand scheme of the entire budget isn't actually much: as though that makes it right or morally acceptable despite our huge national debt.

And your OH so intelligent because you read the 'I' on your Sixth Form lunch break. Oh la de da. :rolleyes:


I agree, we could add it to our Foreign Aid budget.

What, you HAVE to be kidding!? What planet are you on?


http://www.citifmonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/robert-mugabe-460_800965c.jpg

[AgnesIO]

Whilst we are 'EU citizens' as well as British subjects, I am afraid that a bloke from Romania or Germany has as much right to enter this country and increasingly has the same rights to take from the British pot as you do: despite this being our country and not theirs. With increased EU integration, as is specified in the treaties, expect more and more policies such as welfare, social security, pensions, healthcare, education etc to also become an 'EU competence' over time and it'll continue and continue: with of course the wealthier western European countries picking up the huge bill as has always been the case.

Unless we leave and join Switzerland, Norway, Russia and the Commonwealth (India, AZ, NZ, Africa, Canada etc) in the bigger world beyond Euroland.

But lest we forget that they put more into the pot than they take out (http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/11/05/immigration-immigrants-taxes-benefits_n_6101462.html). Oh, and just in case you'll only accept a link that starts with the Daily Mail... (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/reuters/article-2821624/EU-immigrants-20-bln-pound-boost-UK-economy-report-finds.html)

Now, don't get me wrong, I don't think we should throw child benefit to other countries. I was merely commenting on the typical sensationalist ******** that we have come to expect from the Daily Mail, anyone claiming it has 'nothing to do with the amount, it's the principle', please do explain why the article makes a point of the amount in the article.



Why is it that whenever a story like this rightly comes to our attention, all you and others can shout about is the Daily Mail or that the amount in the grand scheme of the entire budget isn't actually much: as though that makes it right or morally acceptable despite our huge national debt.

And your OH so intelligent because you read the 'I' on your Sixth Form lunch break. Oh la de da. :rolleyes:

Sure, cutting this from our huge national debt would be wonderful. That would mean we are only left with £1,254,000,000,000 left to sort out. Lovely. As I state above, I was merely commenting on the fact that £30m is hardly something to become outraged over - such it would be nice to not pay it out, but it really isn't going to solve the national debt - not even make a dent.

And please, you're childish assumptions of what I did during Sixth Form lunch times are embarrassingly pathetic. I've never read the 'I' in my life, and certainly not during Sixth Form lunch breaks (which I only endured once a week, anyway :rolleyes:).



What, you HAVE to be kidding!? What planet are you on?


http://www.citifmonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/robert-mugabe-460_800965c.jpg


Admittedly, I made that comment purely for your reaction :)

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/fsherman-holding-fishing-pole-21298589.jpg

[Zak]

Thoughts?

I think it's ridiculous, why were they even being paid in the first place? soon as they leave the UK all benefits should be stopped.

I never even knew this happened. I agree with you though.

To be honest I think we should leave the EU.

[-:Undertaker:-]

But lest we forget that they put more into the pot than they take out (http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/11/05/immigration-immigrants-taxes-benefits_n_6101462.html). Oh, and just in case you'll only accept a link that starts with the Daily Mail... (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/reuters/article-2821624/EU-immigrants-20-bln-pound-boost-UK-economy-report-finds.html)

Hahaha the Huffington Post, a beacon of truth and the newspaper of educated students. :rolleyes:

As for putting more in, we're always told that by the same people/organisations who also predicted only 13,000 a year would come in their previous studies or that the Euro would be a thumping success. What always interests me though is despite most immigrants actually taking very low level jobs (on pitiful wages) it has often been said that you only start putting into the pot once you earn a certain amount - until then you are actually a net drain as you take more out than you put in, which certainly makes me question how immigrants picking cabbages in a field earning £15,000 a year are paying more in.


Now, don't get me wrong, I don't think we should throw child benefit to other countries. I was merely commenting on the typical sensationalist ******** that we have come to expect from the Daily Mail, anyone claiming it has 'nothing to do with the amount, it's the principle', please do explain why the article makes a point of the amount in the article.

There's nothing sensationalist here and besides, show me a newspaper that isn't sensationalist. Duh.


Sure, cutting this from our huge national debt would be wonderful. That would mean we are only left with £1,254,000,000,000 left to sort out. Lovely. As I state above, I was merely commenting on the fact that £30m is hardly something to become outraged over - such it would be nice to not pay it out, but it really isn't going to solve the national debt - not even make a dent.

You have to start somewhere, and you start on the places that are most wasteful.

Would I rather save £30m here or cut £30m from my local cancer hospital?


And please, you're childish assumptions of what I did during Sixth Form lunch times are embarrassingly pathetic. I've never read the 'I' in my life, and certainly not during Sixth Form lunch breaks (which I only endured once a week, anyway :rolleyes:).

But your so eager to show just how educated you are compared to the oiks who read the Mail.

The Guardian? The Huffington Post? Beacons of truth!


Admittedly, I made that comment purely for your reaction :)

I bet you believe it though.

[AgnesIO]

Hahaha the Huffington Post, a beacon of truth and the newspaper of educated students. :rolleyes:

As for putting more in, we're always told that by the same people/organisations who also predicted only 13,000 a year would come in their previous studies or that the Euro would be a thumping success. What always interests me though is despite most immigrants actually taking very low level jobs (on pitiful wages) it has often been said that you only start putting into the pot once you earn a certain amount - until then you are actually a net drain as you take more out than you put in, which certainly makes me question how immigrants picking cabbages in a field earning £15,000 a year are paying more in.

I knew you would react to the HP, hence the second source. You can't claim everyone is lying...

Yes, because all immigrants spend all day picking cabbage fields. You're arguments never cease to amaze me; you refuse ANY evidence that doesn't back up your viewpoint, accusing those who produced it - in short - of lying. Embarrassment.



There's nothing sensationalist here and besides, show me a newspaper that isn't sensationalist. Duh.

The figure of £30m is sensationalist; on the basis that people become outraged because they forget to realise that £30m on a national scale is NOT the same as £30m in one persons pocket.


You have to start somewhere, and you start on the places that are most wasteful.

Would I rather save £30m here or cut £30m from my local cancer hospital?

Indeed, but I'd suggest targeting slightly bigger cuts than this first..



your so eager to show just how educated you are compared to the oiks who read the Mail.

The Guardian? The Huffington Post? Beacons of truth!

Huffington Post was the first result that came up on Google - there were various other sources available. I'm not 'eager' to prove anything. And please, the Guardian? No chance.



I bet you believe it though.

Well, I believe it would be better placed there than it would be going into child benefit. However, I also believe there are many other more important places it could go - but also realise that, realistically, most major Govt departments wouldn't even flinch at £30m being taking out of their budget.

[FlyingJesus]

Has anyone even read the article? The money goes to the parents who are working in Britain, not randomly transferred throughout Europe. That's 20,660 people who are here adding to the economy and getting £20-30 in allowances for doing so. It's a bit weird giving child benefits to those who aren't directly responsible for the child at the time, but hardly criminal, and the claim that this is money "being sent abroad" is totally unfounded since the money stays in the country unless the recipient chooses to transfer it away, as anyone may do with the money in their own account.

[The Don]

As for putting more in, we're always told that by the same people/organisations who also predicted only 13,000 a year would come in their previous studies or that the Euro would be a thumping success..

You're a moron if you think that's an acceptable and logical argument to make.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Science_was_wrong_before
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Science_was_wrong_before
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Science_was_wrong_before
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Science_was_wrong_before
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Science_was_wrong_before
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Science_was_wrong_before

You remind me of the lawyer in this video


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clKi92j6eLE

[-:Undertaker:-]

I knew you would react to the HP, hence the second source. You can't claim everyone is lying...

Yes, because all immigrants spend all day picking cabbage fields. You're arguments never cease to amaze me; you refuse ANY evidence that doesn't back up your viewpoint, accusing those who produced it - in short - of lying. Embarrassment.

I thought the line (and that I always hear from those advocating open borders) was that we needed uncontrolled borders because lazy Britons weren't willing to do the low-level jobs such as picking the crops themselves? I'm just repeating what advocates of open borders (ie government and big corporations) are always telling us all.

Or has the argument now shifted again?


The figure of £30m is sensationalist; on the basis that people become outraged because they forget to realise that £30m on a national scale is NOT the same as £30m in one persons pocket.

That's not sensationalist.

If the Mail says that £30m of taxpayers money is being wasted overseas in Europe on children who don't even live here, then that is a statement of fact and not sensationalist in the slightest. Is saying the Iraq War cost £1bn sensationalist too? No, it's a statement of fact.

Stop trying to weave a criticism of the Daily Mail into every article, if you wanted to criticise the Mail properly in relation to this story then you could easily do so (and I would join you) by questioning as to how the Daily Mail can complain about something like this yet still officially supports Britain's membership of the European Union at the same time. Now that would be a just criticism to level at the newspaper, accusing it of hypocrisy.


Indeed, but I'd suggest targeting slightly bigger cuts than this first..

Oh absolutely, but as well as this.


Huffington Post was the first result that came up on Google - there were various other sources available. I'm not 'eager' to prove anything. And please, the Guardian? No chance.

See, isn't it annoying when you get into having to defend what source the story is from. Welcome to my world.


Well, I believe it would be better placed there than it would be going into child benefit. However, I also believe there are many other more important places it could go - but also realise that, realistically, most major Govt departments wouldn't even flinch at £30m being taking out of their budget.

Because our government as a whole is wasteful and bloated, so of course they don't care. That's the problem.


You're a moron if you think that's an acceptable and logical argument to make.

Why do advocates of the European project/mass immigration get it wrong so much and so badly?

I'm the supposed moron yet my side of the argument has a track record of being right on this. Go figure who the morons are.

[The Don]

IWhy do advocates of the European project/mass immigration get it wrong so much and so badly?

I'm the supposed moron yet my side of the argument has a track record of being right on this. Go figure who the morons are.

You are indeed a moron if you think somethings wrong on the basis that different people were wrong about different things in the past.

[-:Undertaker:-]

You are indeed a moron if you think somethings wrong on the basis that different people were wrong about different things in the past.

No, the same people actually.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2822805/The-man-told-Polish-immigration-trickle-reality-Left-refuses-confront.html


The BBC and the liberal media were ****-a-hoop yesterday because of a report on migration produced by two academics from University College London. According to various excitable and one-sided accounts, EU migrants have added £20 billion to the economy in ten years.

The general tenor of much of the coverage was: ‘So there!’ The report was represented as a poke in the eye for those who have questioned the speed and volume of immigration into this country over recent years.

Underlying a welter of approving articles was the subtext that European immigration is an unqualified good thing. Ukip and their supporters, and now David Cameron and the Tories, are simply misguided in asserting that it isn’t.

This response seems infantile for a number of reasons. And it doesn’t advance the important national debate on immigration in the slightest way. For one thing, why believe the figure of £20 billion? It’s just a number produced by two academics. Can they be sure? Of course they can’t. Anyone who uncritically accepts such figures is being credulous.

My own natural suspiciousness is increased because one of the two authors of the report is Professor Christian Dustmann, the other being Dr Tommaso Frattini. I know nothing of Dr Frattini, but Professor Dustmann has form.

In 2003, he was the lead author of a report for the Home Office which predicted that, after eight East European countries joined the EU in 2004, the level of immigration into this country would increase by between 5,000 and 13,000 a year.

This proved to be the one of the most idiotic forecasts ever made. Within five years, more than a million East Europeans (more than half of them Poles) had arrived, an annual average of 200,000 — many times the original estimate.

We all make mistakes, but this one was a whopper. Many of us would have been floored, and possibly considered slipping away in shame to New Zealand.

Professor Dustmann has stuck at it, but I can’t deny that my confidence has been dented.

Lol, now stop projecting yourself onto me.

[The Don]

No, the same people actually.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2822805/The-man-told-Polish-immigration-trickle-reality-Left-refuses-confront.html



Lol, now stop projecting yourself onto me.


Are you seriously suggesting that he's the ONLY person to say that immigrants benefit the host country? Not to mention the fact that he only co-authored the report. Not to mention the fact that being wrong about one thing doesn't automatically make you wrong about another thing. Not to mention that his original report was taken out of context by politicians and he actually said more immigrants would come if Germany and other countries curbed access to their labour markets.

The assumption you've made is illogical. That's like me calling Nigel Farage a Racist now because of how he acted in his student days (at least according to his principal).

[-:Undertaker:-]

Are you seriously suggesting that he's the ONLY person to say that immigrants benefit the host country? Not to mention the fact that he only co-authored the report. Not to mention the fact that being wrong about one thing doesn't automatically make you wrong about another thing. Not to mention that his original report was taken out of context by politicians and he actually said more immigrants would come if Germany and other countries curbed access to their labour markets.

He was completely wrong, so why should we take any notice of him now with even more pro-open borders propaganda? I don't trust him, the likes of him or government departments who peddle these reports anymore than I trust the guy on the street corner who predicts the end of the world every year.

He and the government were completely wrong and their credibility when it comes to border controls is in tatters. A gaggle of third rate crooks and liars.


The assumption you've made is illogical. That's like me calling Nigel Farage a Racist now because of how he acted in his student days (at least according to his principal). It's comparable to me calling you wrong without evidence for

Teachers who didn't like him made those claims, from my memory his principal defended him on camera.

Another story though isn't it and mass immigration isn't all about Ukip and Mr Farage ANYWAY.

[FlyingJesus]

Making a poor prediction =/= current figures that we can see for fact being wrong

[The Don]

He was completely wrong, so why should we take any notice of him now with even more pro-open borders propaganda? I don't trust him, the likes of him or government departments who peddle these reports anymore than I trust the guy on the street corner who predicts the end of the world every year.


By your logic everything you're saying now is wrong because you've inevitably been wrong in the past. Stupid reasoning, right?

[-:Undertaker:-]

By your logic everything you're saying now is wrong because you've inevitably been wrong in the past. Stupid reasoning, right?

If I was an academic who did work for the government and misjudged an issue of vital national importance so badly then in any other field such as business I would never be seen or heard from again because my reputation would (rightly) be in tatters. Not for this guy though in relation to the BBC.