Tonight at 8 o'clock on BBC One - Challenger's Debate (last one of the campaign)

[-:Undertaker:-]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32328664

Challenger's Debate

Tonight at 8 o'clock on BBC One the leaders of Labour, Ukip, Greens, the SNP and Plaid will take part in the last debate of the campaign


http://cdn3.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/uk/article31147025.ece/7c171/ALTERNATES/h342/PANews%20BT_P-a20a7000-614b-40fb-84f4-e9cb95d9ebf7_I1.jpg
David Dimbleby is hosting tonight's debate on BBC One and BBC News



The leaders of five of Westminster's opposition parties are due to appear in a live election debate later.

Labour leader Ed Miliband, UKIP's Nigel Farage, SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon, Leanne Wood of Plaid Cymru and the Greens' Natalie Bennett will take part.

The BBC contest, hosted by David Dimbleby from central London, begins at 20:00 BST.

Looking ahead to the debate, Mr Farage said people had "underestimated" Mr Miliband.

He added: "What he has shown in this campaign is he is no fool and he is pretty tough, and if I am going to score points off him... I will have to be good to do it."

The BBC debate, which follows the launch of the parties' election manifestos, is the latest in the schedule of election programmes agreed after months of wrangling between the parties and the broadcasters.

Prime Minister David Cameron and Lib Dem Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg will not be taking part.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CCtZugvXIAAHR0Q.jpg
The lineup



*The BBC debate will be shown on BBC One (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05r87pr) and online on the BBC's election live page at 20:00 BST on Thursday. It will be followed at 21:30 BST by a half-hour analysis programme featuring reaction from the Conservatives, the Liberal Democrats and the DUP.

There will also be an Debate edition of BBC Question Time from London afterwards featuring Conservative party chairman Grant Shapps, Labour's shadow home secretary Yvette Cooper, SNP leader at Westminster Angus Robertson, Liberal Democrat business minister Jo Swinson, UKIP's Douglas Carswell and journalist and broadcaster Piers Morgan.

I'll be watching. Apparently pollster Survation are confirmed for taking a post-debate poll.

Thoughts? Who do you think will win in public opinion?

[Kardan]

I reckon it'll be a 'Gang up on Ed' night considering he's the only main party there. Wouldn't surprise me if SNP and UKIP do well again. Also wouldn't be surprised to be stared to death by Miliband down the camera either.

[FlyingJesus]

Whoever made that lineup picture should be shot lmao

I won't watch it I'll be playing football at the time much more important but personally I think it would be hilarious if they just sat around having tea and talking about how much they hate Cameron and Clegg just because they aren't there

[-:Undertaker:-]

So much for a snap poll of who won the debate by Survation, it only just came out: 45 minutes later.

Miliband - 35%
Sturgeon - 31%
Farage - 27%
Bennett - 5%
Wood - 2%

[scottish]

Good old Miliband

[-:Undertaker:-]

Here's a breakdown of that poll on substance, style and the issues.


Who would make best Prime Minister? (Survation):

Miliband - 43%
Farage - 26%
Sturgeon - 25%
Bennett - 3%
Wood - 3%


Most convincing arguments? (#BBCdebate snap poll | Survation):

Farage - 31%
Miliband - 31%
Sturgeon -24%
Bennett - 10%
Wood - 4%


Who has most appealing personality? (Survation):

Sturgeon - 30%
Farage - 23%
Miliband - 21%
Wood - 16%
Bennett - 9%


Best on immigration? (#BBCdebate snap poll | Survation):

Farage - 53%
Miliband - 18%
Sturgeon - 13%
Bennett - 10%
Wood - 6%


Best on national debt and deficit? (#BBCdebate snap poll | Survation):

Miliband - 40%
Farage - 30%
Sturgeon - 18%
Bennett - 8%
Wood - 4%


Best on NHS? (#BBCdebate snap poll | Survation):

Miliband - 40%
Farage - 28%
Sturgeon - 15%
Bennett - 9%
Wood - 7%


Best on defence? (#BBCdebate snap poll | Survation):

Farage - 37%
Miliband - 35%
Sturgeon - 16%
Bennett - 9%
Wood - 3%


Best on housing? (#BBCdebate snap poll | Survation):

Miliband - 36%
Farage - 26%
Sturgeon - 17%
Bennett - 15%
Wood - 7%


Cameron v Miliband, who would you prefer? (#BBCdebate snap poll | Survation):

Miliband - 45%
Cameron - 40%

[AgnesIO]

Seemed like a fairly anti-UKIP audience, to be honest. Also noticed at the end when Sturgeon, Wood, Bennett and Miliband went over to the audience, Farage appeared to just walk off. Having said that, as I say, the audience wasn't exactly in favour of UKIP!

[-:Undertaker:-]

Seemed like a fairly anti-UKIP audience, to be honest. Also noticed at the end when Sturgeon, Wood, Bennett and Miliband went over to the audience, Farage appeared to just walk off. Having said that, as I say, the audience wasn't exactly in favour of UKIP!

A Beeb-selected audience so no surprise there. I noticed that too though at the end. :P


http://www.ezimba.com/work/150417C/ezimba12171789512400.png


Symbolic of the real divide if you ask me.

[AgnesIO]

A Beeb-selected audience so no surprise there. I noticed that too though at the end. :P


http://www.ezimba.com/work/150417C/ezimba12171789512400.png


Symbolic of the real divide if you ask me.

I also noticed the divide there :L The thing is, they are all clamoring for a coalition with Ed (not that the Greens or Plaid Cymru stand a chance...).

I imagine Farage was probably pretty frustrated by the obvious bias against UKIP in the audience (obviously that doesn't bother me, but trying to be fair, here!).

[The Don]

Haven't had a chance to watch it yet but looks like Miliband smashed it!

[Zelda]

I have zero idea who on earth they asked on those polls you have brought up tbh, but maybe mine and all the people i was speaking to during the debate's great dislike of farage clouded are judgement. didnt stop the cheering at sturgeon for pointing out farage's crap at least though. Didn't think miliband did well personally either, but that's probably more due to how annoying his voice problem is to listen to and how uncomfortable it is to look at him as he stares into your soul.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I have zero idea who on earth they asked on those polls you have brought up tbh, but maybe mine and all the people i was speaking to during the debate's great dislike of farage clouded are judgement. didnt stop the cheering at sturgeon for pointing out farage's crap at least though. Didn't think miliband did well personally either, but that's probably more due to how annoying his voice problem is to listen to and how uncomfortable it is to look at him as he stares into your soul.

It's a scientific poll by Survation.

I am certainly interested to know how you thought Sturgeon apparently debunked Farage though. Are you referring to when they were talking about the lack of houses and Sturgeon along with the others denied that net migration of 300,000 might have something to do with it given demand and supply?

It seemed to me that Sturgeon, Bennett Wood and sometimes Miliband were just stood there promising free stuff. My head nearly exploded when Nicola Sturgeon started going on about how we can't "afford" austerity. Well the clue is in the name love, austerity you have because we spent too much from 1997 onwards.

[Zelda]

It's a scientific poll by Survation.

I am certainly interested to know how you thought Sturgeon apparently debunked Farage though. Are you referring to when they were talking about the lack of houses and Sturgeon along with the others denied that net migration of 300,000 might have something to do with it given demand and supply?

It seemed to me that Sturgeon, Bennett Wood and sometimes Miliband were just stood there promising free stuff. My head nearly exploded when Nicola Sturgeon started going on about how we can't "afford" austerity. Well the clue is in the name love, austerity you have because we spent too much from 1997 onwards.

her comments on him being a one trick pony where he blames everything on immigration was what that comment was about. surprises me that the poll was properly representative given the audience but clearly it was, seems to just highlight the divide among different age groups' political views more really.

[-:Undertaker:-]

her comments on him being a one trick pony where he blames everything on immigration was what that comment was about.

Isn't that Nicola Sturgeon with her constant whinging about austerity when hardly any real cuts have even been made? It strikes me that if we're going to talk about housing shortages for example, the influx of an extra 300,000 people every year - all who need houses - is more or less the crux of the argument.

Am I right? I don't understand how anybody could even dispute this simple logic yet she stood there and did exactly that.


surprises me that the poll was properly representative given the audience but clearly it was, seems to just highlight the divide among different age groups' political views more really.

Indeed, well that has been remarked upon in some comments I have been reading on different news sites by the silence that Farage's comments recieved on housing/immigration by the audience yet the cheering for Sturgeon when she basically de facto said any new housing stock should go to newly arrived immigrants. The audience was maybe in tune with the views in the North London bubble, but outside of the capital as the polling showed on immigration and housing... it's a different picture and a different world.

[FlyingJesus]

I'm really disappointed that no-one in the Labour marketing team has decided to make a remix of A Milli done as "Ed Mili" with some bomb political rhymes laid on it I don't even like him but I'm tempted to make it maybe this is how I will earn my fortune

[Kardan]

Can anyone tell me how the audience was anti-UKIP? Not saying I'm disagreeing with it, I just want to know... Was it simply the fact that they clapped at stuff the others said and not what Farage said?

I thought Miliband did well, but so did Sturgeon. In fact, I quite like what Sturgeon has to say - until she mentions defence - then independence.

A part of me would like to see a UKIP majority government, immigration controlled completely and then see what UKIP would blame all the problems in the country on - I still feel like they're a one trick pony.

[The Don]

Can anyone tell me how the audience was anti-UKIP? Not saying I'm disagreeing with it, I just want to know... Was it simply the fact that they clapped at stuff the others said and not what Farage said?

I thought Miliband did well, but so did Sturgeon. In fact, I quite like what Sturgeon has to say - until she mentions defence - then independence.

A part of me would like to see a UKIP majority government, immigration controlled completely and then see what UKIP would blame all the problems in the country on - I still feel like they're a one trick pony.

They weren't. That's the way Farage UKIP is spinning it to delude their voter base into thinking they are actually in the majority.

Open question, does anyone else think that UKIP is being carried by Farage's charisma? I genuinely can't imagine a UKIP without him, and I definitely can't imagine UKIP being anywhere near as popular with Paul Nuttal in charge.

[GommeInc]

Farage was useless and a bit of an embarrassment. There are more issues than immigration and I think he came off as a one (bad) trick pony for bringing it up every time he was asked to talk. His manifesto was pretty decent yet he may as well set fire to it seeing as he poorly referred to it during the debates. As far as I saw last night the one policy they have is immigrants are to blame, yet there are well over 10-15 points most of which do not mention immigration but actual measures to protect the poorer involving tax.

Ed Milliband misheard or misread manifestos and questions or got side-tracked. Leanne Wood thinks people really know what austerity means so kept using it when no-one wants to hear that word. You're meant to speak to people, not politicians or economists. Natalie Bennett was okay but ended up just shutting Ed up and Nicola Sturgeon was like a Scottish Leanne Wood. Not really bringing anything to the table other than mud slinging.

All in all the debate seemed useless. I didn't learn anything other than the country needs to sort itself out and that includes every party knowing what they stand for and properly articulating it in every way they can when asked about their policies. Bull-crapping potential voters isn't going to work, and neither does crap slinging which is what we witnessed last night. Whoever wins the next election needs to do a huge tidy up of the country - from giving Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland the powers they so obviously need, to sorting out the mess with Westminster and the obvious lack of care for it by politicians and voters.

[-:Undertaker:-]

A part of me would like to see a UKIP majority government, immigration controlled completely and then see what UKIP would blame all the problems in the country on - I still feel like they're a one trick pony.

Nobody blames all the countries problems on immigration, but if you've got a discussion about a housing shortage and people like Nichola Sturgeon and Ed Miliband are proposing another 200,000 houses to be built each year when net migration is running at 300,000 a year does that add up to you? You do Mathematics do you not? Do you not see how it is illogical to have open borders and attempt to be able to claim to solve the shortage of housing which is caused by an extra 300,000 people coming in every year?

Am I right or wrong here? :S And the same applies to hospital places, school places and so on.


Can anyone tell me how the audience was anti-UKIP? Not saying I'm disagreeing with it, I just want to know... Was it simply the fact that they clapped at stuff the others said and not what Farage said?

Below.


They weren't. That's the way Farage UKIP is spinning it to delude their voter base into thinking they are actually in the majority.

The audience was not in tune with the general public at all, we know from opinion surveys that immigration is a top issue for the public at large with a huge majority wanting controls brought in. Just look a the British Social Attitudes Survey. Or look at the poll ratings that Farage recieved from Survation last night with 50%+ backing him on the issue: much higher than any share recieved on any issue by the other party leaders. Yet judging by the audience? A stony silence.

The television audience themselves agree.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jamieross/the-audience-seem-to-think-nigel-farage-had-a-point-about-th



http://ak-hdl.buzzfed.com/static/2015-04/16/17/enhanced/webdr06/enhanced-7625-1429218802-31.jpg


“It was a legitimate criticism,” she said of Farage’s outburst against the audience. “The crowd didn’t seem very balanced at all – it was so left-wing.”

“As is always the case, those who shout the loudest get heard. but there was a quiet group of us in there listening carefully to the arguments.

The debate was actually a bit of a farce – there were four left-wing leaders and Nigel Farage.

“I don’t usually like UKIP at all but he was the only one who stood out, and he made a completely fair point about the audience.”

I have read that apparently the audience was picked from the local area by ICM.

So if it's a North London audience it would have been completely out of touch with the country at large. As shown by comments on every site.


Open question, does anyone else think that UKIP is being carried by Farage's charisma? I genuinely can't imagine a UKIP without him, and I definitely can't imagine UKIP being anywhere near as popular with Paul Nuttal in charge

Work has been done into this and whilst he's obviously a factor, the party isn't a one man band as the media portrays. Professor Matthew Goodwin and Rob Ford who have written the book on this have stated that even if Ukip collapsed between warring factions tomorrow, another party with the same values (socially conservative, populist economically) would arise. Indeed, he's pointed out before how such a party has been a long time coming in British politics as experiences on the continent going back one or two decades have shown.

As someone from a working class family that voted Conservative for decades, I can tell you we're not going back. And I hear many others are the same.

[Kardan]

Nobody blames all the countries problems on immigration, but if you've got a discussion about a housing shortage and people like Nichola Sturgeon and Ed Miliband are proposing another 200,000 houses to be built each year when net migration is running at 300,000 a year does that add up to you? You do Mathematics do you not? Do you not see how it is illogical to have open borders and attempt to be able to claim to solve the shortage of housing which is caused by an extra 300,000 people coming in every year?

Am I right or wrong here? :S And the same applies to hospital places, school places and so on.



Below.



The audience was not in tune with the general public at all, we know from opinion surveys that immigration is a top issue for the public at large with a huge majority wanting controls brought in. Just look a the British Social Attitudes Survey. Or look at the poll ratings that Farage recieved from Survation last night with 50%+ backing him on the issue: much higher than any share recieved on any issue by the other party leaders. Yet judging by the audience? A stony silence.

The television audience themselves agree.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jamieross/the-audience-seem-to-think-nigel-farage-had-a-point-about-th

I have read that apparently the audience was picked from the local area by ICM.

So if it's a North London audience it would have been completely out of touch with the country at large. As shown by comments on every site.



Work has been done into this and whilst he's obviously a factor, the party isn't a one man band as the media portrays. Professor Matthew Goodwin and Rob Ford who have written the book on this have stated that even if Ukip collapsed between warring factions tomorrow, another party with the same values (socially conservative, populist economically) would arise. Indeed, he's pointed out before how such a party has been a long time coming in British politics as experiences on the continent going back one or two decades have shown.

As someone from a working class family that voted Conservative for decades, I can tell you we're not going back. And I hear many others are the same.

Yes, immigration does contribute to 'crowding' of services such as NHS, housing - but it's not the sole problem.

The data from mid 2014 shows that in one year the population increased by 400,000 people - natural change accounted for 212,100 people, net migration accounted for 183,400 people.

So yes, you could say 200,000 houses a year might not work but it is worth remembering that we probably don't need 400,000 new houses for 400,000 people.

I think I'd be able to like Farage more if he just talked about what he would do after immigration. Let's say he stopped migration completely even though that's completely unlikely. He is still have a population change of over 200,000 each year - what is he going to do then? I just think he talks as if it's the centre of all problems, and in this case - it's not even half the problem.

[FlyingJesus]

The audience was not in tune with the general public at all

No-one is, there's almost no such thing as a true popular consensus in the UK :P if there were we wouldn't be having these back-and-forth discussions with the exact same points being repeated all the time... no matter how much cherrypicking a buzzfeed "journalist" does

[-:Undertaker:-]

Yes, immigration does contribute to 'crowding' of services such as NHS, housing - but it's not the sole problem.

The data from mid 2014 shows that in one year the population increased by 400,000 people - natural change accounted for 212,100 people, net migration accounted for 183,400 people.

So yes, you could say 200,000 houses a year might not work but it is worth remembering that we probably don't need 400,000 new houses for 400,000 people.

The net figure is near 300,000 now. Now just imagine if that graph was back to pre-1997 levels what pressure that would take off housing and services.


http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/media/images/79317000/gif/_79317640_migration_624_v5.gif


Births within the United Kingdom are easier to plan for in that when somebody is born they won't be buying or in need of a social home for around 20 years, they also won't need high school places until a decade later and so on. With natural births, you can more or less predict and plan ahead for schools, homes and hospitals as the birth rate remains more or less static. Government spending is allocated years in advance and thus can relieve any population explosions.

With mass immigration you can't. More to the point, much of the increase in the birth rate itself comes from former immigrants who are now British subjects so even if you built 300,000 homes a year just to cope with those coming in, you would soon find yourself grappling with high birth rates among immigrants who are younger. Contrast this with many who emigrate from the country who tend to be wealthy and past the age of having children.



I think I'd be able to like Farage more if he just talked about what he would do after immigration. Let's say he stopped migration completely even though that's completely unlikely. He is still have a population change of over 200,000 each year - what is he going to do then? I just think he talks as if it's the centre of all problems, and in this case - it's not even half the problem.

An influx of 200,000 to 300,000 people isn't "half the problem" when Sturgeon and Miliband are talking about 200,000 homes a year?

In terms of housing post-controlled borders, he said what he would do. A brownfield building revolution and grants to have brownfield land, usually in inner cities like my home of Liverpool, decontaminated so that developers will build on them again. Developers prefer green belt land as it is cheap to build on yet we end up destroying our countryside as well as creating these gigantic urban sprawls far away from jobs. Get building on the brownfield sites in inner cities again.

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/ukipdev/pages/1103/attachments/original/1429096952/theukipmanifesto2015.pdf?1429096952 Page 32.

Now if they got into office and broke all their promises like Labour and Tories do and came up with naff excuses then sure, I would be posting alongside you on this forum berating them for it. But until then, they are the only ones who are prepared to talk about the elephant in the room which is mass immigration that is running between 200k and 300k people coming in a year: and all need places to live.


No-one is, there's almost no such thing as a true popular consensus in the UK http://www.habboxforum.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif if there were we wouldn't be having these back-and-forth discussions with the exact same points being repeated all the time... no matter how much cherrypicking a buzzfeed "journalist" does

There do exist consensus on issues in Britain.

On the EU, immigration and military adventures overseas for example Britons are in tune with me by a large margin.

On railways and the NHS I can easily admit that I am in the minority when it comes to public opinion.

[MKR&*42]

Seemed like a fairly anti-UKIP audience, to be honest. Also noticed at the end when Sturgeon, Wood, Bennett and Miliband went over to the audience, Farage appeared to just walk off. Having said that, as I say, the audience wasn't exactly in favour of UKIP!

Yes I noticed that too. Found it quite shameful really as they moaned when actual, logical points about immigration are brought up (e.g. "Less migration = less housing demand") instead of listening to the points being made.

[The Don]

There do exist consensus on issues in Britain.

On the EU, immigration and military adventures overseas for example Britons are in tune with me by a large margin.

On railways and the NHS I can easily admit that I am in the minority when it comes to public opinion.

You're actually in the minority on the EU. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3012691/British-voters-swing-favour-STAYING-EU-six-10-against-cutting-ties-Brussels.html

[FlyingJesus]

There do exist consensus on issues in Britain.

On the EU, immigration and military adventures overseas for example Britons are in tune with me by a large margin.

lol do you actually believe this despite the massive majority of literate people being critical of UKIP policies? And before you cite a poll that less than 1% of the population was invited to take part in (or another buzzfeed article), note that agreeing that immigration is sometimes a worry is not the same as wanting to stop it outright

[-:Undertaker:-]

You're actually in the minority on the EU. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3012691/British-voters-swing-favour-STAYING-EU-six-10-against-cutting-ties-Brussels.html

I mean in terms of euroscepticism.

There's overwhelming support from the public for wanting powers brought back and no more powers given over.


lol do you actually believe this despite the massive majority of literate people being critical of UKIP policies? And before you cite a poll that less than 1% of the population was invited to take part in (or another buzzfeed article), note that agreeing that immigration is sometimes a worry is not the same as wanting to stop it outright

Who wants to stop it outright?

Cite me where I have ever argued stopping immigration outright. Just stop twisting the argument all the time.

[FlyingJesus]

Who wants to stop it outright?

Cite me where I have ever argued stopping immigration outright. Just stop twisting the argument all the time.

Five-year ban on unskilled migrants coming in to the UK from the UKIP manifesto, which you are planning to vote for. Well done on dodging the actual point as usual though, and then pretending that someone else is discussing things improperly. Bravo

[The Don]

I mean in terms of euroscepticism.

There's overwhelming support from the public for wanting powers brought back and no more powers given over.



Who wants to stop it outright?

Cite me where I have ever argued stopping immigration outright. Just stop twisting the argument all the time.

lol isn't one of UKIP's key policies a 5 year freeze on immigration...

[-:Undertaker:-]

Five-year ban on unskilled migrants coming in to the UK from the UKIP manifesto, which you are planning to vote for. Well done on dodging the actual point as usual though, and then pretending that someone else is discussing things improperly. Bravo


lol isn't one of UKIP's key policies a 5 year freeze on immigration...

That isn't banning immigration outright like Tom claimed.


Skilled workers would still be able to come.
University students would be classed separate to overall immigrant figures.

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/ukipdev/pages/1103/attachments/original/1429295050/UKIPManifesto2015.pdf?1429295050 Page 10.

[The Don]

That isn't banning immigration outright like Tom claimed.


Skilled workers would still be able to come.
University students would be classed separate to overall immigrant figures.

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/ukipdev/pages/1103/attachments/original/1429295050/UKIPManifesto2015.pdf?1429295050 Page 10.
Except he didn't say ban he said stop which is completely accurate.

[FlyingJesus]

It's also not something that the majority of Britons agree with as you tried to claim, as evidenced by the fact that UKIP aren't anywhere near a majority vote. Do at least TRY to argue with the points that have actually been raised rather than changing the subject every time you get thwarted

[-:Undertaker:-]

Except he didn't say ban he said stop which is completely accurate.

He said.

"note that agreeing that immigration is sometimes a worry is not the same as wanting to stop it outright"

Both myself and the party I am planning to vote for haven't suggested stopping immigration outright aka banning it. Case dismissed.


It's also not something that the majority of Britons agree with as you tried to claim, as evidenced by the fact that UKIP aren't anywhere near a majority vote. Do at least TRY to argue with the points that have actually been raised rather than changing the subject every time you get thwarted

You confuse social and political attitudes with voting and party political identification.

[FlyingJesus]

You confuse social and political attitudes with voting and party political identification.

You confuse being a *REMOVED* idiot with holding a popular opinion. The FACT is that the stupid polls only ever state that a lot of people view immigration as a problem, not that they think your views on it and any solutions to do with it are correct. Even if they were magically able to predict how everyone in the country thinks, they would not be doing what you're saying they are

Edited by mdport. (Forum Super Moderator): Please do not avoid the forum filter or insult other users.

[-:Undertaker:-]

You confuse being a *REMOVED* idiot with holding a popular opinion. The FACT is that the stupid polls only ever state that a lot of people view immigration as a problem, not that they think your views on it and any solutions to do with it are correct. Even if they were magically able to predict how everyone in the country thinks, they would not be doing what you're saying they are

Oooh, i've touched a nerve haven't I. Good.

The fact is that open borders are illogical and the large majority want a decrease in immigration no matter how many times you spit your dummy out.

[FlyingJesus]

I
DO
NOT
SUPPORT
OPEN
BORDERS

Good lord learn to read. Yes, people who are completely unable to read or respond to points properly do touch a nerve with me. Being annoying as all hell isn't the same as being right about anything though, despite what all of the UKIP literature tries to claim

[-:Undertaker:-]

We're not arguing what you think, it's impossible to know what you think as you'll never answer a straight question.

I'm saying I know what the public feel on the issue, and polling and surveys show the public are against mass immigration and open borders. Period, end of story.

[FlyingJesus]

That's great news, but it still isn't what you claimed before. I have agreed time and time again that polls show that large amounts of people view immigration as an important issue, but you seem to think it follows from that that each and every one of these people also believe that UKIP's plans (ie; what you believe in) are the right and proper way to go.

And it's certainly not impossible to know what I think, especially not when I state it constantly. Your poor memory is not my fault