JCB company owner and chief executive both back British exit from the EU

[-:Undertaker:-]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32775396
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/11611936/EU-exit-may-be-in-UKs-best-interest-says-top-manufacturing-firm.html

EU exit may be in UK's best interest, says top manufacturing firm

'There has been too much scaremongering' over Europe, says the top executive of leading British manufacturing firm JCB


http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03307/Graeme-MacDonald__3307798b.jpg
Graeme MacDonald, chief executive of JCB



The bosses of one of the biggest manufacturing companies in the UK have said Britain should vote to leave the European Union in an in-out referendum because the departure would not make a "blind bit of difference" to trade with Europe.

Graeme MacDonald, chief executive of JCB - the third biggest maker of construction equipment in the world - said the impact on business had been overhyped if Britain voted to leave the single market.

Asked if it would be better for the UK to quit an unreformed EU, he told The Guardian: (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/17/jcb-boss-says-eu-exit-could-lift-burden-of-bureaucracy-on-uk-businesses) "I think it would be because I really don’t think it would make a blind bit of difference to trade with Europe.

"There has been far too much scaremongering about things like jobs. I don’t think it’s in anyone’s interest to stop trade. I don’t think we or Brussels will put up trade barriers.”

At the same time, the company's chairman and owner Lord Bamford, who is a Tory peer and donor, told the BBC that the UK “could negotiate as our own country rather than being one of 28 nations in Brussels as we are today.” He added "We are the fifth or sixth largest economy in the world. We could exist on our own - peacefully and sensibly," Lord Bamford told BBC Midlands Today.

Prime Minister David Cameron has promised to hold an in-out referendum by 2017, (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/10700644/David-Cameron-the-EU-is-not-working-and-we-will-change-it.html) but could bring it forward, after first seeking to renegotiate the terms of Britain's membership. He wants a better deal for the country, with controls on immigration and an end to meddling from Brussels, which Mr MacDonald said was key.

"What is needed is a lot less red tape and bureaucracy," he said. "Some of it is costly for us and quite frankly ridiculous. Whether that means renegotiating or exiting, I don’t think it can carry on as it is. It’s a burden on our business and it’s easier selling to North America than to Europe sometimes.”

Many other British businesses are also believed to be keen for renegotiation of the EU. An Institute of Directors' survey last year found that 60 per cent of business leaders would only continue to support the EU if there was reform in a number of areas. (http://www.iod.com/influencing/press-office/press-releases/business-support-for-eu-membership-conditional-on-fundamental-reform-finds-new-iod-survey)However, there are other voices such as WPP's Sir Martin Sorrell who have said leaving the EU could be costly for Britain.

Well done to both for coming out and stating the obvious.

If people like the JCB Owner and Chief Executive get behind and properly back an Exit campaign, then I am really hopeful that the scaremongering from the politicians about leaving can be overcome. We can just as easily trade with the EU with leaving, and we'll not have to put up with all the rest of it (open borders, Euro bailouts, social policies and political interference) once we do. A better relationship for both sides so let's seize upon it.

Thoughts?

[AgnesIO]

But then who would listen to JCB when there are companies such as BMW, Ford and Unilever warning against us leaving? Whether one considers it scaremongering or not, there are far more companies advocating that we stay in the EU than those which say we should leave.

[-:Undertaker:-]

But then who would listen to JCB

Erm it is one of our biggest companies?


when there are companies such as BMW, Ford and Unilever warning against us leaving? Whether one considers it scaremongering or not, there are far more companies advocating that we stay in the EU than those which say we should leave.

That isn't true.

There's more larger corporations like you mention that keep telling us to stay for one reason and one reason alone: it's easier for them to lobby politicians of one parliament to pass legislation than 28 different parliaments. There's no concrete evidence any of the supporters of staying in that can point to us having any disadvantages what so ever by leaving, the bigger boys only want to stay in because they'd lose their influential lobbying positions. It's as simple as that.

I'd also remind you that the same large corporations also told us back in 2000 if we didn't join the Euro they'd all leave. Thank **** we ignored them.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTv7UoK8oJY


Rudd, Branson (Virgin), Nissan, and Sorrell... the usual suspects.

[AgnesIO]

Erm it is one of our biggest companies?



That isn't true.

There's more larger corporations like you mention that keep telling us to stay for one reason and one reason alone: it's easier for them to lobby politicians of one parliament to pass legislation than 28 different parliaments. There's no concrete evidence any of the supporters of staying in that can point to us having any disadvantages what so ever by leaving, the bigger boys only want to stay in because they'd lose their influential lobbying positions. It's as simple as that.

I'd also remind you that the same large corporations also told us back in 2000 if we didn't join the Euro they'd all leave. Thank **** we ignored them.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTv7UoK8oJY


Rudd, Branson (Virgin), Nissan, and Sorrell... the usual suspects.

Splitting up my post to suit your argument is stupid. I am questioning who would listen to JCB when there are far larger companies saying we should stay. I'm not questioning what large corporations motives are - I am simply stating there are far more telling us to stay inside. Which is true. Thanks.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Splitting up my post to suit your argument is stupid. I am questioning who would listen to JCB when there are far larger companies saying we should stay. I'm not questioning what large corporations motives are - I am simply stating there are far more telling us to stay inside. Which is true. Thanks.

It depends entirely which companies you include and do not. I think the third biggest construction equipment company in the world holds some sway though.

As I said and the video shows, many of the large corporations are completely discredited when it comes to advice on the EU.

[AgnesIO]

It depends entirely which companies you include and do not. I think the third biggest construction equipment company in the world holds some sway though.

As I said and the video shows, many of the large corporations are completely discredited when it comes to advice on the EU.

I guess the third largest consumer goods company with over 400 brands would probably have a pretty loud voice too, though, right?

I bet the majority of voters will be watching anti-EU videos on YouTube too, then!

[The Don]

But then who would listen to JCB when there are companies such as BMW, Ford and Unilever warning against us leaving? Whether one considers it scaremongering or not, there are far more companies advocating that we stay in the EU than those which say we should leave.

Why listen to the overwhelming majority when there's a few idiots around that reinforce Dan's firmly established beliefs? You could tell Dan the sky is blue and he would find some nutter that disagrees with you and point out why everybody else is wrong.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I guess the third largest consumer goods company with over 400 brands would probably have a pretty loud voice too, though, right?

I bet the majority of voters will be watching anti-EU videos on YouTube too, then!

It does have a big voice, absolutely. But when Nissan, Toyota and Virgin told us to join the Euro or face economic disaster, and given none of that ever materalised and rather the opposite happened like my side warned (including Business for Sterling) don't you think that is important too?

Believe it or not, there's loads of companies like JCB out there who back British exit. It's time they were heard over the discredited ones.


Why listen to the overwhelming majority when there's a few idiots around that reinforce Dan's firmly established beliefs? You could tell Dan the sky is blue and he would find some nutter that disagrees with you and point out why everybody else is wrong.

Sounds like a perfect description of yourself.

Interesting though, when the referendum comes and say business sides with us so you lose that extra bone... what will you argue for that? What concrete evidence will you have to give or will you just resort, like you always have, to scaremongering about jobs without any factual basis at all?

[The Don]

Sounds like a perfect description of yourself.

Interesting though, when the referendum comes and say business sides with us so you lose that extra bone... what will you argue for that? What concrete evidence will you have to give or will you just resort, like you always have, to scaremongering about jobs without any factual basis at all?

"I know you are but what am I" lmao

I won't need to argue anything, there's still an overwhelming majority of businesses that all agree it would be bad for us to leave.

[-:Undertaker:-]

"I know you are but what am I" lmao

Aye, often we project ourselves onto other people.


I won't need to argue anything, there's still an overwhelming majority of businesses that all agree it would be bad for us to leave.

Because you cannot argue, I guess you'll just have to keep on parroting the discredited claims of Nissan and Toyota then.

[The Don]

Aye, often we project ourselves onto other people.



Because you cannot argue, I guess you'll just have to keep on parroting the discredited claims of Nissan and Toyota then.

I don't need to argue your silly hypothetical situation that's got zero chance of happening. Calling Nissan and Toyotas claims 'discredited' because you disagree with them really highlights your disingenuous 'debating' techniques.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I don't need to argue your silly hypothetical situation that's got zero chance of happening. Calling Nissan and Toyotas claims as 'discredited' because you disagree with them really highlights your disingenuous 'debating' techniques.

I'm calling them discredited because they are discredited.

They told us to join the Euro or face economic ruin. They were not only wrong, but as wrong as you could possibly be.

If we were on this forum 15 years ago arguing right now, both you and fellow travellers like conservative; among others would be arguing with me over and over again telling me that it's in Britain's best interests to join the Euro and that I was being 'narrow minded' or 'nationalist' or 'isolationist' because I was arguing it would be dangerous to surrender control of our currency and join a disparate currency bloc. On top of that, you'd be burying me in 'da facts about jerbs' quoting Nissan, Toyota and Nissan telling me that if we don't join then the sky would fall in.

As I said earlier, thank ******* christ we didn't listen to you shower of clowns.

[The Don]

I'm calling them discredited because they are discredited.

They told us to join the Euro or face economic ruin. They were not only wrong, but as wrong as you could possibly be.

If we were on this forum 15 years ago arguing right now, both you and fellow travellers like conservative; among others would be arguing with me over and over again telling me that it's in Britain's best interests to join the Euro and that I was being 'narrow minded' or 'nationalist' or 'isolationist' because I was arguing it would be dangerous to surrender control of our currency and join a disparate currency bloc. On top of that, you'd be burying me in 'da facts about jerbs' quoting Nissan, Toyota and Nissan telling me that if we don't join then the sky would fall in.

As I said earlier, thank ******* christ we didn't listen to you shower of clowns.

Unfortunately for you, Dan, being wrong on one issue in the past doesn't automatically make you wrong on everything else in the future. In the real world when we call something discredited it's because there's some sort of issue with their argument, not because they thought 1+1 = 3 back in nursery. There's so many holes in your argument it's actually embarrassing.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Unfortunately for you, Dan, being wrong on one issue in the past doesn't automatically make you wrong on everything else in the future. In the real world when we call something discredited it's because there's some sort of issue with their argument, not because they thought 1+1 = 3 back in nursery. There's so many holes in your argument it's actually embarrassing.

Well actually it does. If a Chancellor had taken us into the Euro do you think he would be a source of economic wisdom? He'd be seen rightly as a joke.

The amazing thing is that your side doesn't have more shame about how wrong it was and is. If I had a record as appalling and so wrong like your side does on this, then I would bury myself out of the sheer shame. You lot need to learn some humility rather than this pig-headedness of "I'm right cos Nissan said so and JCB sux" which isn't actually backed up by anything factual what so ever. Quoting people who were 150 degrees wrong on something makes you look really silly.

The EU is forbidden from imposing high tariffs under the WTO, so why would trade cease or suffer?

[The Don]

Well actually it does. If a Chancellor had taken us into the Euro do you think he would be a source of economic wisdom? He'd be seen rightly as a joke.

The amazing thing is that your side doesn't have more shame about how wrong it was and is. If I had a record as appalling and so wrong like your side does on this, then I would bury myself out of the sheer shame. You lot need to learn some humility rather than this pig-headedness of "I'm right cos Nissan said so and JCB sux" which isn't actually backed up by anything factual what so ever.

The EU is forbidden from imposing high tariffs under the WTO, so why would trade cease or suffer?

If a chancellor took us into the Euro and then a decade later said 2+2 = 4 he wouldn’t suddenly be incorrect. I’m amazed that you think that’s an acceptable argument to make. It’s impossible to debate with someone so illogical.

[GommeInc]

JCB are a bit of an isolated example. They wouldn't really suffer either way. Other companies on the other hand will be affected while some industries, arguably farming, will benefit out of it.

[-:Undertaker:-]

If a chancellor took us into the Euro and then a decade later said 2+2 = 4 he wouldn’t suddenly be incorrect. I’m amazed that you think that’s an acceptable argument to make. It’s impossible to debate with someone so illogical.

Well yes it is, it's the same economic principle. You are arguing, like they did for the Euro, that being away from a larger European bloc means somehow that we lose out and that companies will leave - but without saying why. As in the case of the Euro currency, not only were you wrong that companies would leave but you were also extra wrong by the fact that the Euro proved to be an economic disaster: yet had 'isolationists' (that meaningless phrase you love to throw) like my side in Business for Sterling been ignored, then look where we would be. And it's the same now by your assertions and predictions of disaster. Why?

And again you dodged my point on the WTO and tariffs. Where is the evidence - other than your belief - that trade would cease or suffer?


JCB are a bit of an isolated example. They wouldn't really suffer either way. Other companies on the other hand will be affected while some industries, arguably farming, will benefit out of it.

The only companies though that will 'suffer' will be the likes of the larger corporations who like the easy lobbying that the European Union provides. I don't like large corporations lobbying though, as they use it purely to propose legislation and regulations that keep out competitors. A monopoly by law essentially.

[Earthquake]

a little too late, would have been a massive boost for the UKIPs election campaign.

[The Don]

Well yes it is, it's the same economic principle. You are arguing, like they did for the Euro, that being away from a larger European bloc means somehow that we lose out and that companies will leave - but without saying why. As in the case of the Euro currency, not only were you wrong that companies would leave but you were also extra wrong by the fact that the Euro proved to be an economic disaster: yet had 'isolationists' (that meaningless phrase you love to throw) like my side in Business for Sterling been ignored, then look where we would be. And it's the same now by your assertions and predictions of disaster. Why?

And again you dodged my point on the WTO and tariffs. Where is the evidence - other than your belief - that trade would cease or suffer?



The only companies though that will 'suffer' will be the likes of the larger corporations who like the easy lobbying that the European Union provides. I don't like large corporations lobbying though, as they use it purely to propose legislation and regulations that keep out competitors. A monopoly by law essentially.

No I am not arguing that and I haven't said any of that here so don't try and shift the discussion like you always do. It is a fact that a wide variety of businesses and entrepreneurs have publicly said it would be bad to leave the EU and they are very much in the majority.

[GommeInc]

The only companies though that will 'suffer' will be the likes of the larger corporations who like the easy lobbying that the European Union provides. I don't like large corporations lobbying though, as they use it purely to propose legislation and regulations that keep out competitors. A monopoly by law essentially.
EU law has made it harder for monopolies to exist as of Article 101 and 102. Technically EU law has stopped larger conglomerates and monopolies from abusing their position politically and economically. If we left, larger organisations will have a stronger say politically, but economically they benefit from the lack of taxation, quotas, custom duties etc. So I am not sure why you think being in the EU gives these larger corporations an "easy lobbying" platform, when evidently they do not. Take Google or Amazon, both find it hard to speak and control governments because the EU wants to ensure they're on a tight leash! It's one area of EU law which works surprisingly well.

[AgnesIO]

a little too late, would have been a massive boost for the UKIPs election campaign.

Keep dreaming, sunshine.

- - - Updated - - -


Well actually it does.

No, it doesn't. People make mistakes. Nobody could have foreseen the euro to be quite as toxic as it ended up becoming. And you certainly didn't (or were you a under ten year old genius??)

[-:Undertaker:-]

No I am not arguing that and I haven't said any of that here so don't try and shift the discussion like you always do. It is a fact that a wide variety of businesses and entrepreneurs have publicly said it would be bad to leave the EU and they are very much in the majority.

And the same vice versa.

Just the embarassing and awkward thing for you is that the big guys who support you got it 150% wrong on the last European question, where as the business leaders on my side in Business for Sterling won the fight and - thank god - prevented us from joining the Euro.


EU law has made it harder for monopolies to exist as of Article 101 and 102. Technically EU law has stopped larger conglomerates and monopolies from abusing their position politically and economically. If we left, larger organisations will have a stronger say politically, but economically they benefit from the lack of taxation, quotas, custom duties etc. So I am not sure why you think being in the EU gives these larger corporations an "easy lobbying" platform, when evidently they do not. Take Google or Amazon, both find it hard to speak and control governments because the EU wants to ensure they're on a tight leash! It's one area of EU law which works surprisingly well.

For the simple reason that having one parliament assembly and a Commission which proposes legislation (and isn't elected) is easier to lobby than 28 separate parliaments some of which may have pesky national voters who get in the way. The European Union may have rules against lobbying just as it has rules against overspending, government deficits and fraud: but that does not mean those rules are always followed. On a national level, if I feel my government has been influenced too heavily by a corporation then I can do something about it whereas on a EU level I cannot. I am sure some good judgements have come from the EU on competition, just as bad ones have come from the British government. The underlying reason why these large corporations support the European project though is simple: it's a matter of I will scratch your back if you scratch mine. It's about exercising power and the EU is great for them in regards to that: I have read countless examples which I will have to find again for the coming months of how certain companies have gone to the EU with suggestions for regulations over 'environmental' concerns which have been designed purely with the intention of blocking out any start-up rivals.

We are perfectly capable and should be making competition law ourselves. Like every other country outside of the EU does. Do we really believe the claims of Nissan, Toyota and Branson that they will leave the UK (as they claimed in 2000 over the Euro) if we left the EU? It is pure drivel.


No, it doesn't. People make mistakes. Nobody could have foreseen the euro to be quite as toxic as it ended up becoming. And you certainly didn't (or were you a under ten year old genius??)

If you make a mistake as big and disasterous as the Euro then you should have a bit of humility and shame.

And my side did predict it would be a complete disaster before you attempt to re-write history in true EU fashion, thank you very much.


http://www.ezimba.com/work/150519C/ezimba11458396029700.png


You can read more quotes predicting the disaster of the Euro via http://openeurope.org.uk/intelligence/eurozone-and-finance/said-eu-elite-got-wrong-euro/ as well as quotes on the other side, including the BT Chairman/Business for Europe and others who got it totally and completely wrong as per usual.

The same people who are now warning us that the sky will fall in if we dare leave the EU.

[The Don]

And the same vice versa.

Just the embarassing and awkward thing for you is that the big guys who support you got it 150% wrong on the last European question, where as the business leaders on my side in Business for Sterling won the fight and - thank god - prevented us from joining the Euro.



For the simple reason that having one parliament assembly and a Commission which proposes legislation (and isn't elected) is easier to lobby than 28 separate parliaments some of which may have pesky national voters who get in the way. The European Union may have rules against lobbying just as it has rules against overspending, government deficits and fraud: but that does not mean those rules are always followed. On a national level, if I feel my government has been influenced too heavily by a corporation then I can do something about it whereas on a EU level I cannot. I am sure some good judgements have come from the EU on competition, just as bad ones have come from the British government. The underlying reason why these large corporations support the European project though is simple: it's a matter of I will scratch your back if you scratch mine. It's about exercising power and the EU is great for them in regards to that: I have read countless examples which I will have to find again for the coming months of how certain companies have gone to the EU with suggestions for regulations over 'environmental' concerns which have been designed purely with the intention of blocking out any start-up rivals.

We are perfectly capable and should be making competition law ourselves. Like every other country outside of the EU does. Do we really believe the claims of Nissan, Toyota and Branson that they will leave the UK (as they claimed in 2000 over the Euro) if we left the EU? It is pure drivel.



If you make a mistake as big and disasterous as the Euro then you should have a bit of humility and shame.

And my side did predict it would be a complete disaster before you attempt to re-write history in true EU fashion, thank you very much.

You're discredited since you were wrong about UKIP's performance at the General Elections so everything you're saying is automatically wrong #danlogic

[-:Undertaker:-]

You're discredited since you were wrong about UKIP's performance at the General Elections so everything you're saying is automatically wrong #danlogic

Why is Ukip brought into this? Ukip is just a part of the Eurosceptic and independence movement, it is not the movement. And for the record, I did not predict hundreds of seats for Ukip, indeed had you read my prediction around two weeks before the election I predicted a mere 3 seats. So don't make it up.

But back to the topic and off Ukip, can you tell me why you believe trade would cease or have trouble when the WTO forbids the EU from erecting tariffs?

[The Don]

Why is Ukip brought into this? Ukip is just a part of the Eurosceptic and independence movement, it is not the movement. And for the record, I did not predict hundreds of seats for Ukip, indeed had you read my prediction around two weeks before the election I predicted a mere 3 seats. So don't make it up.

But back to the topic and off Ukip, can you tell me why you believe trade would cease or have trouble when the WTO forbids the EU from erecting tariffs?

You predicted 3 seats and they got 1, everything you ever say from now on by your own stupid logic is incorrect.

[AgnesIO]

If you make a mistake as big and disasterous as the Euro then you should have a bit of humility and shame.

And my side did predict it would be a complete disaster before you attempt to re-write history in true EU fashion, thank you very much.


http://www.ezimba.com/work/150519C/ezimba11458396029700.png


You can read more quotes predicting the disaster of the Euro via http://openeurope.org.uk/intelligence/eurozone-and-finance/said-eu-elite-got-wrong-euro/ as well as quotes on the other side, including the BT Chairman/Business for Europe and others who got it totally and completely wrong as per usual.

The same people who are now warning us that the sky will fall in if we dare leave the EU.

None of those quotes suggest it would be quite as big a disaster as it has become.

[-:Undertaker:-]

You predicted 3 seats and they got 1, everything you ever say from now on by your own stupid logic is incorrect.

Oh yes because me making a seat prediction on HabboxForum is just the same as predicting a utopian currency union covering 400m+ would be a disaster.

And back to the question, which you have yet to answer (again): why do you believe trade would cease or suffer if we left the EU given WTO tariff constraints?


None of those quotes suggest it would be quite as big a disaster as it has become.

Yes they do, especially the Friedman quote. It was 100% spot on. There's more via the document for you to read.

But the Euro was quite a disaster, you are right. So thank god we listened to my side, given it turned out even worse than imagined (your words).... right?

[The Don]

Oh yes because me making a seat prediction on HabboxForum is just the same as predicting a utopian currency union covering 400m+ would be a disaster.

And back to the question, which you have yet to answer (again): why do you believe trade would cease or suffer if we left the EU given WTO tariff constraints?

Well according to you our past mistakes mean we can't be right about anything else in the future so yes, logically, it is exactly the same.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Well according to you our past mistakes mean we can't be right about anything else in the future so yes, logically, it is exactly the same.

Righttttt, so if Stephen Hawking predicts rain tomorrow he's wrong when it comes to science? Clearly not. On the other hand, if you are actually logical, if a large corporation bosses and politicians tell us that not being a part of the EU project will lead to economic disaster and ruin... and the opposite turns out to be true, then you ought to actually pay attention - especially when they threatened to leave the country (an action of their own) and did not when they lost. Taking advice from your side on European integration matters/European economics is like taking financial advice from Bernie Madoff.

..and FOURTH TIME I ask you, why do you believe our trade will cease or suffer outside of the EU given WTO tariff rules and our global trade position?

[The Don]

Oh yes because me making a seat prediction on HabboxForum is just the same as predicting a utopian currency union covering 400m+ would be a disaster.

And back to the question, which you have yet to answer (again): why do you believe trade would cease or suffer if we left the EU given WTO tariff constraints?



Yes they do, especially the Friedman quote. It was 100% spot on. There's more via the document for you to read.

But the Euro was quite a disaster, you are right. So thank god we listened to my side, given it turned out even worse than imagined (your words).... right?

Notice how Friedman is dead and not arguing for a British exit so how exactly is he on your side for this?

[-:Undertaker:-]

Notice how Friedman is dead and not arguing for a British exit so how exactly is he on your side for this?

You don't understand context of a conversation like... the Eurosceptic movement?

And fifth time, are you going to answer the question? Can you even?

[The Don]

Righttttt, so if Stephen Hawking predicts rain tomorrow he's wrong when it comes to science? Clearly not. On the other hand, if you are actually logical, if a large corporation bosses and politicians tell us that not being a part of the EU project will lead to economic disaster and ruin... and the opposite turns out to be true, then you ought to actually pay attention. Taking advice from your side on European integration matters/European economics is like taking financial advice from Bernie Madoff.

..and FOURTH TIME I ask you, why do you believe our trade will cease or suffer outside of the EU given WTO tariff rules and our global trade position?

You're such an idiot it's unbelievable. Even the worlds greatest economists couldn't accurately predict the global recession. The Toyota, Nissan and Virgin leaders who said about joining the Eurozone are in the business sector, not finance. They are just as much an expert on economics as Stephen Hawking is on rain.
In the real world we decide if someone is wrong about something by looking to see if there are any errors in their argument, not whether or not they had a silly opinion about something in a field they aren't an expert in over a decade ago.

[-:Undertaker:-]

You're such an idiot it's unbelievable. Even the worlds greatest economists couldn't accurately predict the global recession. The Toyota, Nissan and Virgin leaders who said about joining the Eurozone are in the business sector, not finance. They are just as much an expert on economics as Stephen Hawking is on rain.
In the real world we decide if someone is wrong about something by looking to see if there are any errors in their argument, not whether or not they had a silly opinion about something in a field they aren't an expert in, over a decade ago.

If somebody makes such a big claim for something loudly and very publically, like predicting disaster and ruin for the British economy if we don't sign up to more European integration as well as threatening to leave the country if so - if they predict all of that and then the complete opposite occurs, and they didn't follow up on their own threats then that is certainly called being wrong and you could even go as far as calling it a great big stonking pile of horse****. I know I would.

But I have given you six opportunities to answer my question on the 2015 issue and yet again you have ducked it. Hiliarious stuff.

[The Don]

If somebody makes such a big claim for something loudly and very publically, like predicting disaster and ruin for the British economy if we don't sign up to more European integration as well as threatening to leave the country if so - if they predict all of that and then the complete opposite occurs, and they didn't follow up on their own threats then that is certainly called being wrong and you could even go as far as calling it a great big stonking pile of horse****. I know I would.

But I have given you six opportunities to answer my question on the 2015 issue and yet again you have ducked it. Hiliarious stuff.

Again you seem to have missed the point entirely. Of course they were wrong then, nobody has said they weren't. That doesn't automatically make them wrong about this. It's really not that hard to comprehend.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Again you seem to have missed the point entirely. Of course they were wrong then, nobody has said they weren't. That doesn't automatically make them wrong about this. It's really not that hard to comprehend.

Of course, but it certainly discredits their warnings as well as their threats.

[The Don]

Of course, but it certainly discredits their warnings as well as their threats.

Not really since joining a new monetary union is completely different to leaving an already established trade and political organisation such as the EU which could greatly affect their businesses.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Not really since joining a new monetary union is completely different to leaving an already established trade and political organisation such as the EU which could greatly affect their businesses.

Not at all as a single currency is a vital component of completing what is the single market.

As well as the fact the European Union isn't a series of economic projects, it's a political project to the very core.

[The Don]

Not at all as a single currency is a vital component of completing what is the single market.

As well as the fact the European Union isn't a series of economic projects, it's a political project to the very core.

nothing you just said is a response to my post

[-:Undertaker:-]

nothing you just said is a response to my post

Yes it is, although you mean like you've ignored my question several times in a row?

The argument is about European integration, specifically economic, all of which is aimed at completing the single market. The creation of the single currency, which you lot wanted us to join, is central to the future of the single market. If I hear the bosses of these corporations warning me that they will leave and my economy will crash if I do not join the single currrency as we will be 'isolated' (without any real basis in fact at all as proven) then I will also question what substance is behind their identical claim that leaving the European Union (which you don't even have to be in to be in the single market) will leave Britain 'isolated' and cause hurt to our economy. The economic and political facts of the UK's economic weight and the WTO completely contradict these baseless claims.

And like you, they cannot answer this fundamental question just as they could not back in 2000. Discredited, and a disgrace.

[The Don]

Lmao you can't even keep track of your own conversation, this is embarrassing.

1. You said that they didn't act on their threats about leaving the uk if we didn't join the eurozone so why should we believe their threats about leaving if we withdraw from the EU.

2. I answered this by saying that joining the eurozone is completely different to leaving the EU and the latter could have an affect on their businesses.

You've then gone off on a tangent (as usual) about completely irrelevant things because you quite clearly cannot respond to what i've said.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Lmao you can't even keep track of your own conversation, this is embarrassing.

1. You said that they didn't act on their threats about leaving the uk if we didn't join the eurozone so why should we believe their threats about leaving if we withdraw from the EU.

No my dear, that would be you as you still haven't answered the question.

The question being why do you believe a British exit from the EU would be so damaging to trade given the UK's economic weight/WTO?

And the same question could be put to Nissan, Toyota and Branson.. of which they have not answered. Instead they trade in scaremongering pap like you do that Great Britain would be 'isolated' and 'alone' if it left the European Union or single market. No facts of which can be produced to support this just as they could not be produced fifteen years ago when the same guilty men were demanding we join the Euro upon pain of economic death.


I answered this by saying that joining the eurozone is completely different to leaving the EU and the latter could have an affect on their businesses.

Indeed, they claim it could gravely affect their businesses... just like they did fifteen years ago.

If I needed a Doctor or a Lawyer for something important I would look at their track record. And your side's track record on this is appalling.

[The Don]

No my dear, that would be you as you still haven't answered the question.

The question being why do you believe a British exit from the EU would be so damaging to trade given the UK's economic weight/WTO?

And the same question could be put to Nissan, Toyota and Branson.. of which they have not answered. Instead they trade in scaremongering pap like you do that Great Britain would be 'isolated' and 'alone' if it left the European Union or single market. No facts of which can be produced to support this just as they could not be produced fifteen years ago when the same guilty men were demanding we join the Euro upon pain of economic death.



Indeed, they claim it could gravely affect their businesses... just like they did fifteen years ago.

If I needed a Doctor or a Lawyer for something important I would look at their track record. And your side's track record on this is appalling.

JCB may think it's good to leave the EU but there are plenty of businesses and entrepreneurs that think it would be a disaster.

[-:Undertaker:-]

JCB may think it's good to leave the EU but there are plenty of businesses and entrepreneurs that think it would be a disaster.

And vice versa.

But again you haven't told me how this disaster would come about other than you 'think' it would.

[AgnesIO]

And vice versa.

But again you haven't told me how this disaster would come about other than you 'think' it would.

In the same way that you 'think' ​it wouldn't....

[GommeInc]

For the simple reason that having one parliament assembly and a Commission which proposes legislation (and isn't elected) is easier to lobby than 28 separate parliaments some of which may have pesky national voters who get in the way. The European Union may have rules against lobbying just as it has rules against overspending, government deficits and fraud: but that does not mean those rules are always followed. On a national level, if I feel my government has been influenced too heavily by a corporation then I can do something about it whereas on a EU level I cannot. I am sure some good judgements have come from the EU on competition, just as bad ones have come from the British government. The underlying reason why these large corporations support the European project though is simple: it's a matter of I will scratch your back if you scratch mine. It's about exercising power and the EU is great for them in regards to that: I have read countless examples which I will have to find again for the coming months of how certain companies have gone to the EU with suggestions for regulations over 'environmental' concerns which have been designed purely with the intention of blocking out any start-up rivals.
This entire paragraph is riddled with conspiracy theories and seems void of reality.

EU competition laws are pro start-up rivals. Large monopolies and organisations that try to segment the market are immediately targeted. There is no evidence of this dark reality that big businesses have a "You scratch my back and I will scratch yours" game-play. On the contrary, Britain is one country which is at the beck and call to large conglomerates and businesses, pushing away start-up rivals. Look at the High Street, banks, Amazon, Google, Microsoft, Starbucks. This is one example - the Conservatives will lap-up this revelation by JCB mainly because they are the Conservative and are a large financial donor to the party. So this is incorrect to assume the EU only cares about big businesses. If we followed the mentality of our European friends we would have a return to lovely village shops, local butchers, fishmongers and bakers, and UKIPs favourite local amenity - the British Pub (eroded away by supermarkets selling cheaper booze).

It's one area Europe does so much better than us. We're lazy in this respect. The best thing about going abroad is going to a pub or bar and enjoying the atmosphere, something British pubs do not have anymore because only a few exist and get overcrowded.