This just in: George Osborne really doesn't like young people

[Circadia]

George Osborne (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/georgeosborne) has delivered a tough budget for young people, warning them they must either “earn or learn”, and scrapping maintenance grants that support students from the poorest backgrounds through university.In a budget speech stressed that those who can work must work, Osborne warned young people aged 18 to 21 there would be no automatic entitlement to housing benefit, with exceptions only for the most vulnerable.

In addition,the new national living wage (http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jul/08/budget-2015-uk-gdp-other-rich-nations-george-osborne), which is being introduced next year at £7.20, rising to £9 by 2020, will apply only to over-25s, which will be seen as further penalising young people.

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/jul/08/budget-2015-grants-poorer-university-students-scrapped-loans

Did he just think 'ah yes, what would make it even more harder for students from a deprived socioeconomic background to go to university other than increasing tuition fees? I know! How about changing the maintenance grant to a loan so that they'll be in even more debt! And while we're at it, let's just raise the living wage for 25+ cause **** those just coming out of uni, they don't need money'

Thanks for voting Tories

[lemons]

scrapping maintenance grants is disappointing but as far as i know it won't affect me because i start uni this year :D

young people tend to vote less so this is all to be expected

[Empired]

the whole university system is ****** in my opinion

University should be for the top 5% of people and they should get to go no matter what their social background because their intelligence has proven that they deserve to be there. I don't understand how 70% (or whatever) of people leaving further education going to university benefits anyone (except universities obv) really.

[Kardan]

the whole university system is ****** in my opinion

University should be for the top 5% of people and they should get to go no matter what their social background because their intelligence has proven that they deserve to be there. I don't understand how 70% (or whatever) of people leaving further education going to university benefits anyone (except universities obv) really.

But surely those top 5% are still going to do really well even if the "lower 65%" are attending university with them?

And in regards to the topic at hand, earn or learn? More like earn and learn for some. I wouldn't have been able to get through university without the grant.

[dbgtz]

Changing grant to loan won't make a huge difference since most people won't pay off their loans as it is since it's written off in 25 or 30 years (don't remember). If anything, it just means people who succeed very well pay more. The average person will not notice this since payment is based solely off of income and not the amount borrowed.

The minimum wage proposed is also better than the £8 by 2020 proposed by Labour (though there are other factors I've not properly looked into like tax credits etc.). They may have limited it to over 25s, but this is arguably to make getting a career more competitive for younger, less skilled labour. The chances are, should you do well enough, you will be paid higher than the minimum wage anyway.

I'm not a huge Conservative fan by any means, but I certainly do agree with the change of grants to loans & any increase in pay is better than none at the end of the day.

[Kardan]

Changing grant to loan won't make a huge difference since most people won't pay off their loans as it is since it's written off in 25 or 30 years (don't remember). If anything, it just means people who succeed very well pay more. The average person will not notice this since payment is based solely off of income and not the amount borrowed.

The minimum wage proposed is also better than the £8 by 2020 proposed by Labour (though there are other factors I've not properly looked into like tax credits etc.). They may have limited it to over 25s, but this is arguably to make getting a career more competitive for younger, less skilled labour. The chances are, should you do well enough, you will be paid higher than the minimum wage anyway.

I'm not a huge Conservative fan by any means, but I certainly do agree with the change of grants to loans & any increase in pay is better than none at the end of the day.

If you are right in saying that the majority of people won't even pay this added loan off, then the Conservatives are even more stupid than I thought, because if people are currently getting up to £3,300 free but will now be getting up to £8,200 in a loan but most people won't pay it back - surely that's a worse place than where we are now?

Anyway - I reckon a majority of graduates would pay back the majority of their loans - So, tuition fees are now £9k for most university places and now you can get a maintenance loan of up to £8,200. That would be £17,200 a year, so for a normal 3 year course that's already £51,600 debt. Plus the interest.

Students have 25 years to pay it off and they must earn above £21,000. As far as I'm aware you currently pay back 9% of your wage each month.

9% of £21,000 is £1,890. Times that by 25 and you should expect someone on the minimum payback income to pay £47,250 over the 25 years.

You would assume that most graduates would be on more than £21,000 - so I'm not entirely sure how you reckon that most graduates won't pay their loans off unless graduate unemployment starts to rise massively.

So either graduates will notice the extra money they will payback since if graduates stay in employment they should pay nearly all of it back, or the country is screwed because we're lending more money out that won't be paid back. Either way, it doesn't sound good.

[Inseriousity.]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/student-finance/10981759/Nearly-half-of-students-will-not-pay-back-government-loans-warn-MPs.html

They estimated that 45% of students will never pay their loans off in full. That number's just going to increase now. The whole loans system is not fit for purpose and instead of fixing it, they've just made it worse.

[MKR&*42]

Oh goodie.

One step closer to the mess that the US University system is.
--
Seriously though, this is a very poor and distasteful move and I can see it potentially deterring quite a few people. But what can I say... I'm not shocked when the Conservatives announce measures like this.

[dbgtz]

If you are right in saying that the majority of people won't even pay this added loan off, then the Conservatives are even more stupid than I thought, because if people are currently getting up to £3,300 free but will now be getting up to £8,200 in a loan but most people won't pay it back - surely that's a worse place than where we are now?

Anyway - I reckon a majority of graduates would pay back the majority of their loans - So, tuition fees are now £9k for most university places and now you can get a maintenance loan of up to £8,200. That would be £17,200 a year, so for a normal 3 year course that's already £51,600 debt. Plus the interest.

Students have 25 years to pay it off and they must earn above £21,000. As far as I'm aware you currently pay back 9% of your wage each month.

9% of £21,000 is £1,890. Times that by 25 and you should expect someone on the minimum payback income to pay £47,250 over the 25 years.

You would assume that most graduates would be on more than £21,000 - so I'm not entirely sure how you reckon that most graduates won't pay their loans off unless graduate unemployment starts to rise massively.

So either graduates will notice the extra money they will payback since if graduates stay in employment they should pay nearly all of it back, or the country is screwed because we're lending more money out that won't be paid back. Either way, it doesn't sound good.

It's not 9% of £21,000 (see: http://www.studentloanrepayment.co.uk/portal/page?_pageid=93,6678490&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL).

It's not worse at all since, while you're essentially still giving the money away, there's a greater chance of gaining some back should someone who'd normally be entitled to a grant earn enough to pay it all. It also might mean there's less abuse in the system and people take the loan they need rather than claim it all and then shoving it in a bank account.

[Kardan]

It's not 9% of £21,000 (see: http://www.studentloanrepayment.co.uk/portal/page?_pageid=93,6678490&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL).

It's not worse at all since, while you're essentially still giving the money away, there's a greater chance of gaining some back should someone who'd normally be entitled to a grant earn enough to pay it all. It also might mean there's less abuse in the system and people take the loan they need rather than claim it all and then shoving it in a bank account.

Ah, so my maths is all wrong - that means it's even harder for people to pay it all off. That means in order to pay off the £51,600+ loan in 25 years, you need to be earning just over £21,000 OVER the threshold per year - so you need a £42,000 average salary over 25 years to get close to paying it off? That's ridiculous!

Plus, it's not only 'still giving the money away', under this system the government are giving MORE money away. At the moment the max maintenance grant + loan you can get is less than £8,200 - under the new system, the government will be giving more money away initially.

[dbgtz]

Ah, so my maths is all wrong - that means it's even harder for people to pay it all off. That means in order to pay off the £51,600+ loan in 25 years, you need to be earning just over £21,000 OVER the threshold per year - so you need a £42,000 average salary over 25 years to get close to paying it off? That's ridiculous!

Plus, it's not only 'still giving the money away', under this system the government are giving MORE money away. At the moment the max maintenance grant + loan you can get is less than £8,200 - under the new system, the government will be giving more money away initially.

It is ridiculous, but it gets written off so I don't see the issue at the end of the day.

Do you have a source for how much is given away? This could preemptively be taking inflation into account. Are you also arguing that giving more away on perhaps the fairest loan you will ever receive, giving people who need greater financial the choice to take more out, a bad thing? I really don't understand why people are opposed to student loans when they are honestly such good deals. Yes, it's not free but there needs to be some adjustments to be made with a lot of things if we want to maintain our way of life and this is perhaps the best possible middle ground.

To clarify, if this was a more standard loan which will haunt you for the rest of your life and **** your credit rating, I would be 100% against this.

[FlyingJesus]

Oh no more loans that I will never notice and will only have to start paying back once I can afford to... who cares. This is nothing to do with targeting people from poorer backgrounds as debt is debt no matter what your dad does, and the only people who have are rich enough to pay for everything outright don't get the help from loans and (thus far) grants anyway. No-one in this country is being stopped from getting an education because they're poor

[Kardan]

It is ridiculous, but it gets written off so I don't see the issue at the end of the day.

Do you have a source for how much is given away? This could preemptively be taking inflation into account. Are you also arguing that giving more away on perhaps the fairest loan you will ever receive, giving people who need greater financial the choice to take more out, a bad thing? I really don't understand why people are opposed to student loans when they are honestly such good deals. Yes, it's not free but there needs to be some adjustments to be made with a lot of things if we want to maintain our way of life and this is perhaps the best possible middle ground.

To clarify, if this was a more standard loan which will haunt you for the rest of your life and **** your credit rating, I would be 100% against this.

The issue is that currently the government are giving up to ~£7,000 of which £3,300 is free and the other £3,700 is a loan to students but in order to try and SAVE MONEY they will now be giving up to £8,200 as a loan.

The government are giving more money away and yet they're saying we'll be saving money. I'm not opposed to student loans, as I said, I had and needed one - what I'm opposed to is the government making changes when they're blatantly lying about what it's doing. The fact is, they are giving more money out - that's not going to help anyone.

[FlyingJesus]

Will help the students - I know that an extra 1200 a year (regardless of the fact that it would have to be given back eventually) would do wonders for my mind

[dbgtz]

The issue is that currently the government are giving up to ~£7,000 of which £3,300 is free and the other £3,700 is a loan to students but in order to try and SAVE MONEY they will now be giving up to £8,200 as a loan.

The government are giving more money away and yet they're saying we'll be saving money. I'm not opposed to student loans, as I said, I had and needed one - what I'm opposed to is the government making changes when they're blatantly lying about what it's doing. The fact is, they are giving more money out - that's not going to help anyone.

Doing the calculator, I got £7434. I'm going to take a while guess and say this is introduced in 2017 like a lot of other things they proposed, so some increase isn't exactly unexpected. Is that £8200 for inside or outside London?

https://www.gov.uk/student-finance/loans-and-grants

[Circadia]

Doing the calculator, I got £7434. I'm going to take a while guess and say this is introduced in 2017 like a lot of other things they proposed, so some increase isn't exactly unexpected. Is that £8200 for inside or outside London?

https://www.gov.uk/student-finance/loans-and-grants

£8200 outside London and that is only for people who are under the £25,000 a year pay bracket for their household income. Anything above that get nothing and seeing as, if I were to be staying in halls, I would need at least half the grant AND my loan to pay off the rent, I can't imagine what it'll be like for people when the time comes for it to be changed.

It's ridiculous, the loan/grant system is a very floored system and I really don't believe they're going to save as much as they estimate they're going to

[dbgtz]

£8200 outside London and that is only for people who are under the £25,000 a year pay bracket for their household income. Anything above that get nothing and seeing as, if I were to be staying in halls, I would need at least half the grant AND my loan to pay off the rent, I can't imagine what it'll be like for people when the time comes for it to be changed.

It's ridiculous, the loan/grant system is a very flawed system and I really don't believe they're going to save as much as they estimate they're going to

No loan for people over £25k what? lmao that can't be right surely?

[lemons]

8200 will be the maximum

u can still get loan but if ur parents earn more u get less just like it is now! (which i think is unfair still)

[GommeInc]

It's not as harsh as it could be but certainly a concern. Even though the loans are not as harsh as people make them out to be, many do get put off by the prospect of paying a lot once they leave which isn't fair and actually misleading - by the Government and the media.

All I think of when the education system is given a beating is that quote which goes roughly "The best way to control the people is by making them stupid". Or something more philosophical and wordy. It certainly is the case here, seeing as we are pretty stupid in this country and are very anti-establishment and seem to believe anything the media tells us.

[FlyingJesus]

Definitely too many people seeing "cuts to benefits" and raging without looking into it, same with "new loans". WE'LL BE IN DEBT!!!!! Yeah so you won't ever notice it and it's an investment in your future *+*+*+*

[-:Undertaker:-]

I think more and more people should be made to pay for the likes of their education and so I applaud the Conservatives efforts on scrapping EMA and now this move concerning university. The fact is that you should pay for your education yourself, and personally given I have just started work I would like to see more people going to university in their mid to late twenties after working in their younger years as it gives you a completely different perspective as well as would solve the problem of many people going to university who simply aren't suited. I'm no fan of the Conservatives - indeed I would rather they would cut foreign aid etc before British benefits - but ideologically it is in the right direction. Iain Duncan Smith means well and hopefully his agenda will be carried through.

I had to laugh seeing Kardan; criticise the 'stupid' Conservatives on education/university though when he voted Labour.

[Kardan]

I think more and more people should be made to pay for the likes of their education and so I applaud the Conservatives efforts on scrapping EMA and now this move concerning university. The fact is that you should pay for your education yourself, and personally given I have just started work I would like to see more people going to university in their mid to late twenties after working in their younger years as it gives you a completely different perspective as well as would solve the problem of many people going to university who simply aren't suited. I'm no fan of the Conservatives - indeed I would rather they would cut foreign aid etc before British benefits - but ideologically it is in the right direction. Iain Duncan Smith means well and hopefully his agenda will be carried through.

I had to laugh seeing Kardan; criticise the 'stupid' Conservatives on education/university though when he voted Labour.

If you believe that people should pay for university themselves, why are you applauding this move when they're giving more money away?

[-:Undertaker:-]

If you believe that people should pay for university themselves, why are you applauding this move when they're giving more money away?

Of course people should pay for university education themselves, why on earth should you be entitled to it for free or subsidised? The majority of graduates will end up earning more than low skilled workers, why should low skilled workers be paying for the free courses of people who could easily take out a loan?

And the government is cutting grants, is it not? It was your Labour Party though remember who brought in tuition fees after promising not to.

[FlyingJesus]

Well that isn't an answer to his question at all

[-:Undertaker:-]

Well that isn't an answer to his question at all

I believe I said this was cutting grants to students so how is that giving away more money?

[FlyingJesus]

The fact remains that money is being given away by the state to students - people are not paying for university themselves (which you said they should), the government is paying and then asking pretty please pay it back when you can in a very small way. I'm not trying to argue that it's right or wrong that this is happening, just that your applause for this change doesn't totally match up with your statement that you think people should pay their own way.

[AgnesIO]

But surely those top 5% are still going to do really well even if the "lower 65%" are attending university with them?

And in regards to the topic at hand, earn or learn? More like earn and learn for some. I wouldn't have been able to get through university without the grant.

Yes you would. You'll still get the money you would have gotten, just now you have to pay it back. You'd still be able to get through University.


Ah, so my maths is all wrong - that means it's even harder for people to pay it all off. That means in order to pay off the £51,600+ loan in 25 years, you need to be earning just over £21,000 OVER the threshold per year - so you need a £42,000 average salary over 25 years to get close to paying it off? That's ridiculous!

Plus, it's not only 'still giving the money away', under this system the government are giving MORE money away. At the moment the max maintenance grant + loan you can get is less than £8,200 - under the new system, the government will be giving more money away initially.

£42,000 is a reasonable salary, but it isn't anything outrageously high. Reach a Head of Year role at a school or something and you'll hit that.

----

Lucky me gets a grant this year due to my father retiring :D So I would be disappointed if I was going in a few years, but this will not touch me personally. I guess it is somewhat irrelevant for most; if you are going to do a job where you don't expect to earn £42,000 a year, it doesn't really matter if it is a grant or a loan, as you won't be paying it back either way...

[-:Undertaker:-]

The fact remains that money is being given away by the state to students - people are not paying for university themselves (which you said they should), the government is paying and then asking pretty please pay it back when you can in a very small way. I'm not trying to argue that it's right or wrong that this is happening, just that your applause for this change doesn't totally match up with your statement that you think people should pay their own way.

So they are now charging more for fees which is what I said I supported. I never said I was against loans, I was just against freebies galore.

That's why I applaud the move...

[Kardan]

Of course people should pay for university education themselves, why on earth should you be entitled to it for free or subsidised? The majority of graduates will end up earning more than low skilled workers, why should low skilled workers be paying for the free courses of people who could easily take out a loan?

And the government is cutting grants, is it not? It was your Labour Party though remember who brought in tuition fees after promising not to.

The government are stopping grants, so they are giving less money to students for "free", instead they are giving that money and a bit extra to students in loans. So the government are giving MORE money out just under loans. That means all these low skilled workers are giving out more money than they were before...

And just because it's a loan isn't going to change that much. The only people that are going to pay back this extra loan are the people that are already able to pay back the whole thing within 25 years - it was said somewhere in the thread that that was only 45% or 55% of people, this percentage is only going to decrease as the amount that is required to pay back increases.

They are only 'charging more' for this money if people end up paying back - already too many student loans are being written off and as I've said increasing the amount people need to pay back won't solve that issue any faster.

- - - Updated - - -


Yes you would. You'll still get the money you would have gotten, just now you have to pay it back. You'd still be able to get through University.



£42,000 is a reasonable salary, but it isn't anything outrageously high. Reach a Head of Year role at a school or something and you'll hit that.

----

Lucky me gets a grant this year due to my father retiring :D So I would be disappointed if I was going in a few years, but this will not touch me personally. I guess it is somewhat irrelevant for most; if you are going to do a job where you don't expect to earn £42,000 a year, it doesn't really matter if it is a grant or a loan, as you won't be paying it back either way...

My point is, I definitely would have been less likely to take the loan because it was a loan and if I made that choice in my first year without knowing why/what I would need the money for - refusing it would have been a mistake.

Also, you need an average of a £42,000 salary. So reaching that salary after a period of time won't be enough - you'll need to earn more than that to balance out the years you were earning less. It'd be interesting to see any stats on a graduate's average salary after X years - I definitely think a majority wouldn't get an average £42,000/year over 25 years.

[Jssy]

this is going to affect me a little. im applying independently as i dont live with parents and my yearly income is £2700 but i guess its loans instead of grants, and I don't expect things for free (bit ironic since im on income support) but i want to go to uni to give myself the best future possible and pay back into the system that has helped me.

[MotorStefan95]

Well I really do hate Osborne, I think someone needs to get that red box of his and give him a good smack over the head with it, then he will probably have some common sense.

This change won't affect me as much as others but my sister will be directly affected by it and she really is not sure sure about uni as she doesn't want to get into debt. This is a shame really as she is really smart. I would have been less likely to get a loan if the grant wasn't available.