Auschwitz: Major Witness Flaw

[MightyMagician]

Irene Zisblatt was one of the survivors in the film, "The Last Days". Look up her testimony to see how ridiculous it is. I can destroy her testimony with her own words. In the documentary, Irene Zisblatt claims she was about 9 when she was expelled from school in 1939, and wikipedia lists her birthday as December 28th, 1929. Hmm, Auschwitz prisoners needed to be at least 15 in order to work, and the last train going there was in 1944 in the summer... so Irene would have been younger than 15 upon arrival and thus immediately murdered. How the hell did she survive? :S

[Joe]

maybe...... wikipedia is wrong

[Kyle]

helga weiss was 14 and she told them she was 15 so she didnt die m8

[FlyingJesus]

In the documentary, Irene Zisblatt claims she was about 9 when she was expelled from school in 1939, and wikipedia lists her birthday as December 28th, 1929.

That adds up fine :S for any term-time day in 1939 she would have been 9.


Hmm, Auschwitz prisoners needed to be at least 15 in order to work, and the last train going there was in 1944 in the summer... so Irene would have been younger than 15 upon arrival and thus immediately murdered. How the hell did she survive? :S

Because they weren't all immediately killed (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2926645/Survivors-visit-Auschwitz-day-ahead-70th-anniversary.html). Literally 5 seconds of Google.

[MightyMagician]

helga weiss was 14 and she told them she was 15 so she didnt die m8

Helga Weiss could have very well been 15 since an exact date is not known.

[Kyle]

Helga Weiss could have very well been 15 since an exact date is not known.
if you read her diary you'll note that she talks in depth about her age at the time

not all children were killed, proper checks weren't in place. it didn't matter.

[MightyMagician]

That adds up fine :S for any term-time day in 1939 she would have been 9.



Because they weren't all immediately killed (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2926645/Survivors-visit-Auschwitz-day-ahead-70th-anniversary.html). Literally 5 seconds of Google.

Yes, if you were the age of at least 15, you were considered fit enough to work, whereas if you were not, you were considered a child and unfit to work. This is the exact reason as to why Anne Frank survived the train unloading, because she had a birthday before her arrival and was thus 15.

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if you read her diary you'll note that she talks in depth about her age at the time

not all children were killed, proper checks weren't in place. it didn't matter.

If you're so sure her diary gives an exact date, then go ahead and cite it.

[Kyle]

my mistake, she was 15! but my recollection of her not being asked her age was right, so if irene seemed more adult then it's entirely possible that she slipped through the net and was bundled with the older children too.


Mom is standing in front of the SS man, he’s sent her to the right. Lord, let us stay together! “Rechts!” the SS man snarled at me and pointed the way with his finger. Praise be, we’re both on the same side. Thank you, God, a thousand thanks for making it work out.

[MKR&*42]

I'm all for debating but these constant threads whining over Anne Frank are becoming so tiring and dull, would you just let it ***** go.

[Red]

She explains it in her account. Her parents were also gassed immediately despite being of working age.
In the book "The Last Days," Irene tells how her mother gave her advice, before the train left the ghetto, that saved her from being immediately selected for the gas chamber at Birkenau.The following quote is from the book entitled "The Last Days":
And she told me to say I was twenty years old - I was only thirteen - because then I would be sent to work in a factory where I would get food and I would survive.


The following quote is from a newspaper article (http://www.swvatoday.com/comments/holocaust_survivor_speaks_to_local_students/news/4761/) written by Nate Hubbard after Zisblatt gave a talk to students in Bland County, Virginia on March 9, 2009:But the most gripping part of Zisblatt's account came when she told of narrowly escaping the gas chamber. She said she was selected along with approximately 1,500 other women to be killed. When the prisoners were herded into the gas chamber, though, there wasn't room for them all. Zisblatt said she wound up right in the doorway, clinging to a piece of wood as her fingernails were ripped off causing blood to gush from the tips of her fingers. When the door couldn't be closed with Zisblatt blocking the way, she was flung out of the chamber.

[MightyMagician]

my mistake, she was 15! but my recollection of her not being asked her age was right, so if irene seemed more adult then it's entirely possible that she slipped through the net and was bundled with the older children too.

It's entirely possible that Mengele did group arrivals based on appearance, but I find it extremely unlikely it would have happened that way with anyone younger than 15. Remember, when Irma Menkel was asked by Anne Frank for cereal, she immediately thought "no, she's not a little kid". Meanwhile, when she learned Anne was 15, she was shocked because Anne looked more like a 12 year old. If Mengele was letting 14 year olds pass by ass 15, Anne should have been sent to the crematoria for passing by as 12.

PS: Intersocial, his is not an Anne Frank thread. I'm simply using her as an example in comparison with the Auschwitz narrative.

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She explains it in her account. Her parents were also gassed immediately despite being of working age.

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Red... I am going to invite you to watch Dario Gabbai's testimony, where he states the gas chamber capacity was 2000-2500 people, and that "there was no room for anything else but standing up". Surely Irene Zisblatt would have fit in a Birkenau gas chamber.

In response to point 1: Holy cow, so all you do is say "I'm 20", and you're safe? This is absolutely crazy, because she could have quietly passed this information to multiple others her age.

Mengele was also taking into account general health among arrivals.

[Red]

How is it crazy. It is pretty obvious people escaped the chambers by giving a false age but this is irrelevant in her case since she claimed she was sent to the gas chambers but escaped.

[MightyMagician]

How is it crazy. It is pretty obvious people escaped the chambers by giving a false age but this is irrelevant in her case since she claimed she was sent to the gas chambers but escaped.

It's crazy because like I told FlyingJesus in an earlier Auschwitz thread, people being sent to Auschwitz already knew the shower story in relation to the gas chambers. Of course, you could just say you were 20 and probably be brought aboard a train to the main camp, but what about those afraid of the block of death, or those aware of Krema 1? It doesn't make sense that people would go from one place to the other when conditions were just as bad at Auschwitz 1. EVen more so: Why would it matter if Mengele didn't give you his stamp of approval? He wasn't just examining age, after all.

[Red]

Except people did believe the shower story :S Don't know what you are talking about. Are you saying people had a choice of which camp they went to? She arrived in 1944. The train tracks had been extended then right up to krema iii.

[MightyMagician]

Except people did believe the shower story :S Don't know what you are talking about. Are you saying people had a choice of which camp they went to? She arrived in 1944. The train tracks had been extended then right up to krema iii.

So let me explain. When Birkenau gas chambers were in operation, at some point it got out that not all the showers were exactly safe. The gas chambers were disguised as shower rooms, so people were hearing via radio that instead of tap water, the gas came out through the pipes. The factory in your quote is referring to the main camp. This camp was nothing like Birkenau and had a post office, swimming pool, orchestra, brothel, etc. But with the lock of death and Krema 1, it still elicited fear. So, interpret the quote as, if you are 20, you can go to the main camp. You could be transferred over there, but the place would overcrowd, and you'd be sent back to Birkenau eventually. As for train tracks, I'm not sure what you're trying to ask or establish.

[MightyMagician]

Oh God, here we go! As if Irene Zisblatt's story of being pushed out the door of an Auschwitz gas chamber was ridiculous enough, we have the story of one who SURVIVED an Auschwitz gassing. Because being poisoned, suffocated, in a ventilated room is survivable.

http://tinyurl.com/lxzx95h

[Red]

So let me explain. When Birkenau gas chambers were in operation, at some point it got out that not all the showers were exactly safe. The gas chambers were disguised as shower rooms, so people were hearing via radio that instead of tap water, the gas came out through the pipes. The factory in your quote is referring to the main camp. This camp was nothing like Birkenau and had a post office, swimming pool, orchestra, brothel, etc. But with the lock of death and Krema 1, it still elicited fear. So, interpret the quote as, if you are 20, you can go to the main camp. You could be transferred over there, but the place would overcrowd, and you'd be sent back to Birkenau eventually. As for train tracks, I'm not sure what you're trying to ask or establish.

I mentioned the train because I thought you were trying to say she would have been sent to main camp instead of birkenau. I still don't understand what you are on about though? Her only choice here was to live or die. She could lie about her age and be put to work or else be sent directly to her death in the gas chambers.

[FlyingJesus]

I'm not sure what you're asking for here. You've been shown that not all under 15s were immediately killed and just skipped over it

[MightyMagician]

I mentioned the train because I thought you were trying to say she would have been sent to main camp instead of birkenau. I still don't understand what you are on about though? Her only choice here was to live or die. She could lie about her age and be put to work or else be sent directly to her death in the gas chambers.

The quote about Irene mentioning being sent to a factory that fed prisoners well was most likely referring to the main camp. Birkenau's work detail was generally out in the open, and the only nearby "factory" was Kanada 1, where women went through the luggage and belongings of arrivals. But, since Irene had been in both the death camp and the main camp, the quote must have meant the main camp in reference to the factory, which was more like a small town.

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I'm not sure what you're asking for here. You've been shown that not all under 15s were immediately killed and just skipped over it

The same person who mentioned the diary girl already checked the book and found she was 15 upon arrival. You on the other hand? No attempt to even try to source your claims.

[FlyingJesus]

Yeah you're totally right an article with multiple pictures of survivors and their photographs upon entry is no source at all...

[Red]

I haven't read her testimony but even if she was in that camp how is it relevant if she did spend time there? When he mother made that quote they probbaly didn't fully know where they were going to. She says they were told by Nazis that they were getting the train to tokaj to work in vinyards. She did arrive in birkenau though and all her family were immediately gassed in chamber 2.

[MightyMagician]

Alright, one of the people in that article was younger than 15, but keep in mind Mengele occasionally took children one by one for his experiments.

Sorry for not seeing your link. It was hard to tell it apart from the rest of the text in your post, but at least you are trying.

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I haven't read her testimony but even if she was in that camp how is it relevant if she did spend time there? When he mother made that quote they probbaly didn't fully know where they were going to. She says they were told by Nazis that they were getting the train to tokaj to work in vinyards. She did arrive in birkenau though and all her family were immediately gassed in chamber 2.

Well, yeah. Hungarians were considerably rich during that time period, so people going on the trains had to be reassured that they'd be going somewhere to work. Remember, the nazis must have had some knowledge of the gas chamber rumors so they had to cover that up somehow. The people onboard, however, saw through te window that they were headed to Poland, as Irene also mentioned. In all honesty though, her mom probably knew where they were going, and that's why she told her daughter to fake her age, or s Irene says.

[MightyMagician]

Hmmm... interesting. There actually was a forced labour camp in Tokaj, that held prisoners in Hungary. Perhaps Irene's mom didn't think that camp could hold so many people?