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-:Undertaker:-
02-02-2016, 11:53 PM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12137245/Cabinet-members-prepare-to-defy-David-Cameron-on-EU-referendum.html

Cabinet members prepare to defy David Cameron on EU referendum as negotiations between EU-UK Deal come to an end

Ministers warn they will speak out against the Prime Minister's European Union deal, which they are warning will not cut the number of migrants coming to the UK.



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CaPxRxMWcAAf5hR.png


Cabinet ministers are threatening to defy David Cameron by publicly speaking out against his deal with the European Union, which they are warning will fail to cut migration. The Prime Minister was handed an offer on Tuesday by Brussels which critics said contained only "watered-down" pledges. The deal will give EU migrants “gradually increasing access” to benefits after they come to the UK - as opposed to the outright ban Mr Cameron had previously demanded.

Despite critics describing the deal as “pathetic” and “insubstantial”, Mr Cameron welcomed the offer by Donald Tusk, the president of the European Council, and said he “sure would” take the deal being offered. Last night Cabinet sources accused Mr Cameron of effectively beginning the campaign for Britain to stay in the EU and warned that they will now start speaking out in favour of a “Brexit”.

Downing Street is demanding that all ministers continue to abide by “collective responsibility” and continue to support the Prime Minister’s position until the final deal is done at a Brussels summit in two weeks.

Mr Cameron was asked by ministers at a Cabinet meeting on Tuesday morning whether they could now speak out in favour of Brexit. One Cabinet source told The Telegraph: “The Prime Minister has fired the starting gun for the EU campaign and made clear he will be leading the charge to stay in. The assumption is that collective responsibility is over.”

Boris Johnson became the most senior Tory to openly criticise Mr Cameron’s deal, warning that there is “much, much more that needs to be done”. Mr Johnson sits in the political Cabinet and so is not governed by collective responsibility.

It came as:

• Mr Cameron was accused of breaking his manifesto pledge to ban EU migrants from claiming in-work benefits in the UK for four years.
• Theresa May, the Home Secretary, gave the clearest indication that she will join the campaign to stay in the EU by saying the Tusk offer is “a basis for a deal”.
• A promise by the Prime Minister to stop migrants sending child benefit abroad was abandoned. Foreigners will be allowed to send welfare payments to their children abroad, but they will be given less money than before.
• Experts warned that the “emergency brake” being offered to Britain that will still allow migrants to claim benefits will act as an “incentive” to come to the UK.
• Officials warned that the new benefits regime for EU migrants could spell chaos for Whitehall computer systems.

So that's it then. We know know what kind of EU we are going to be voting on this summer.

Even as a eurosceptic I did not expect much at all but I at least expected some token reforms to be thrown Cameron's way as an attempt to keep us it: reform of CAP, CFP, a rebate and a few financial regulations thrown away. But nothing. I am genuinely shocked at how little he got, he got nilch.

It goes to prove that the EU is unreformable and Britain's voice counts for nothing there.

For those who lean towards Leave, does what he has achieved - nothing - sway you more towards Remain or are you pretty sure now?

You can read by clicking here how Cameron failed to get anything he asked for from the EU:

http://order-order.com/2016/02/02/9-specific-demands-dave-wanted-from-brussels/

FlyingJesus
03-02-2016, 12:27 AM
I think the real crime here is how bad those headlines are

-:Undertaker:-
03-02-2016, 12:29 AM
I think the real crime here is how bad those headlines are

I love them haha especially The Sun I always think it comes up with some great corkers. Very Carry On-esque :P

-:Undertaker:-
05-02-2016, 12:34 PM
Leave surges to a 9-point lead with YouGov.

695374416285335552

Meanwhile the President of the European 'Parliament' is saying any changes Britain gets are reversible....

dbgtz
06-02-2016, 02:15 PM
Interesting to see public support for the EU is also seemingly sliding in Scotland (though with the remain still having a huge lead lmao).
I wonder if the referendum will have have some terms that will see it unlikely to succeed, like needing 66% or 75% to vote to leave or something along those lines.

Lewis
06-02-2016, 02:30 PM
Interesting to see public support for the EU is also seemingly sliding in Scotland (though with the remain still having a huge lead lmao).
I wonder if the referendum will have have some terms that will see it unlikely to succeed, like needing 66% or 75% to vote to leave or something along those lines.

I don't know a great deal about politics, but what the hell, that isn't a democratic vote with terms like that lol

dbgtz
06-02-2016, 10:37 PM
I don't know a great deal about politics, but what the hell, that isn't a democratic vote with terms like that lol

I doubt anything like it would happen (well, 66% is a possibility in my opinion since DC doesn't actually want to leave), but I what I was thinking of is stuff like in the Scottish devolution referendum in 1979 where X% of the electorate had to turn out along with a majority.

-:Undertaker:-
06-02-2016, 10:49 PM
dbgtz; Lewis; there's no limits like that on this referendum, winner is 50% +1.

then again i say that but the EU likes to have people vote again if they vote the 'wrong' way *cough* the Irish and Dutch.

dbgtz
06-02-2016, 10:51 PM
dbgtz; Lewis; there's no limits like that on this referendum, winner is 50% +1.

then again i say that but the EU likes to have people vote again if they vote the 'wrong' way *cough* the Irish and Dutch.

Have the terms been set? I don't recall seeing that they have been.

-:Undertaker:-
06-02-2016, 10:55 PM
Have the terms been set? I don't recall seeing that they have been.

aye, electoral commission has sorted it all from question to wording. even the ballot paper is set.


http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/139/590x/EU-referendum-ballot-paper-638210.jpg

next decison will be what groups will get official designation as the Remain and Leave campaigns

dbgtz
06-02-2016, 10:59 PM
I am quite surprised. I genuinely expected DC to try and weasel it a bit.

-:Undertaker:-
06-02-2016, 11:04 PM
I am quite surprised. I genuinely expected DC to try and weasel it a bit.

think he did propose a different question/answer thing but electoral commission changed it.

what we should really be voting on is the principle of whether or not we want "ever closer union" tbh because that's what is written in the treaties and where its going

dbgtz
06-02-2016, 11:08 PM
think he did propose a different question/answer thing but electoral commission changed it.

what we should really be voting on is the principle of whether or not we want "ever closer union" tbh because that's what is written in the treaties and where its going

Yeah I honestly don't like how broad the idea is not just because it limits choice, but because it's open to abuse later on. Similarly with the Scottish independence referendum, it was too broad. There needs to be a second part which asks in the event of a "leave" vote, what would you see as best for the UK and use some proportional ranking system to find the most suitable alternative. I suspect a lot of people would be happy being in the market, just not the rest of it but alternatively, a lot of people just want out altogether, though no cooperation whatsoever is a ridiculously stupid outcome which I think even you can agree on.

-:Undertaker:-
06-02-2016, 11:21 PM
Yeah I honestly don't like how broad the idea is not just because it limits choice, but because it's open to abuse later on. Similarly with the Scottish independence referendum, it was too broad. There needs to be a second part which asks in the event of a "leave" vote, what would you see as best for the UK and use some proportional ranking system to find the most suitable alternative. I suspect a lot of people would be happy being in the market, just not the rest of it but alternatively, a lot of people just want out altogether, though no cooperation whatsoever is a ridiculously stupid outcome which I think even you can agree on.

i actually want out of the Single Market aswell longer term tbh, but if EEA membership was a stepping stone away from EU membership i'd take it.

my preference is:

negative> EU membership, European Economic Area (EEA), European Free Trade Association (EFTA), Bilateral Free Trade Agreement (FTA) with EU <positive


moving from EU to EEA would put us in the same position as the likes of Norway https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d9/Flag_of_Norway.svg/21px-Flag_of_Norway.svg.png

moving from EU to EFTA would put us in same position as likes of Switzerland https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f3/Flag_of_Switzerland.svg/16px-Flag_of_Switzerland.svg.png
FTA (my ideal scenario) would put us in bilateral situation. advantage to this would be a Commonwealth Trade Agreement being made possible. http://www.mapreport.com/images/flags/3/commonwealth.gif


but like i say even the EEA is supremely better than what we have now as it detatches us from political union. the Norweigans seem happy with it. :P

what do you think?

dbgtz
06-02-2016, 11:32 PM
i actually want out of the Single Market aswell longer term tbh, but if EEA membership was a stepping stone away from EU membership i'd take it.

my preference is:

negative> EU membership, European Economic Area (EEA), European Free Trade Association (EFTA), Bilateral Free Trade Agreement (FTA) with EU <positive


moving from EU to EEA would put us in the same position as the likes of Norway https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d9/Flag_of_Norway.svg/21px-Flag_of_Norway.svg.png

moving from EU to EFTA would put us in same position as likes of Switzerland https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f3/Flag_of_Switzerland.svg/16px-Flag_of_Switzerland.svg.png
FTA (my ideal scenario) would put us in bilateral situation. advantage to this would be a Commonwealth Trade Agreement being made possible. http://www.mapreport.com/images/flags/3/commonwealth.gif


but like i say even the EEA is supremely better than what we have now as it detatches us from political union. the Norweigans seem happy with it. :P

what do you think?


When I said cooperation, I meant you don't just flat out ignore them rather work with them but also worth with others to maximise trade.

-:Undertaker:-
06-02-2016, 11:54 PM
When I said cooperation, I meant you don't just flat out ignore them rather work with them but also worth with others to maximise trade.

ohhh i see. well yeah one of my prime motives for leaving is that we sign FTAs with Commonwealth countries like India, Australia, Canada, Malaysia, Singapore etc now rather than vote to stay in a project that is falling apart (economically too) and end up leaving/being forced out in 10 years anyway but being 10 years behind in making FTAs with the economies which are going to matter over the next century.

i won't actually be gutted if we vote Remain as i think we'll be out/it'll collapse soon anyway. i'll just see it as a wasted opportunity putting off the inevitable.

-:Undertaker:-
09-02-2016, 05:22 PM
Big development today on the official campaign group which the Electoral Commission will decide. Now a 3-way split with GO, VL and L.EU.

Rumours also that Ukip may be preparing to disband after the referendum: http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/02/row-in-ukip-over-eu-referendum-campaign-stitch-up/

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