Is Torture an acceptable tool in the interrogation of terrorists? ENDS- 26th of April

[Brad]

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I'm going to jump right into this debate, as many topics are being brought up and discussed amongst the current affairs section of the forum it has gotten to a point where they are stating that a lot of the attacks on these cities are forms of terrorism and that individuals from different groups of rebels are pointed at for the cause of the attacks.

So my topic for this debate which states;

Is torture an acceptable tool in the interrogation of terrorists?


Things to consider if you favour torture as an acceptable tool;

Needing information from terrorists can be time-sensitive. Which means that those interrogating the individual need to know all detail regarding the terrorist attack or a potential one.
Some may claim that torture is right as those who have done a terrorist attack deserve more punishment for the lives they've taken
Torture is sometimes more humane than what the terrorist could/would do to soldiers when captured.


Things to consider if you are against torture as an acceptable tool;

Some experts say that torture is not practical nor is it effective.
Those who are terrorist may construe the truth and may have an alternative objective
Most interrogators have a hard time keeping psychologically sound when partaking in challenging activities during interrogation
Those who are interrogators are perceived as evil, and has a ever-lasting effect on public and international opinion.



I will rest the debate into your hands. What do you think?
Let the Debate begin!

This Debate will end on 26th April, 2017 at 11:59PM GMT


The debate is now up to you! Good contributions will be rewarded with likes and/or royalty points throughout the thread and the member who makes the best contributions throughout the month may give you any of these rewards found here (https://www.habboxforum.com/showthread.php?t=841110). Also, with contributing towards the Featured Member Debate will get you this reward! (https://www.habboxforum.com/showthread.php?t=841095)

[Landon]

Dang right I think torture is acceptable. If you decide to attack a country with malicious intent to scare/harm/injure/kill people and others, you deserve torture and eventually death.

[Expling]

no, not acceptable as you'd be just as bad as the person you're torturing - anyone who has the ability to hurt anyone, despite who that person is or what they do, should be classed as a danger to society imo

terrorists are extremely vicious and horrible people, but they were brainwashed into thinking what they think and they wouldn't tell you all that you know if you harm them or threaten to harm them... they don't care about pain

[scottish]

Yes, if it's proven beyond reasonable doubt that this person is either involved in a plot which undermines the nations security or has knowledge of one then torture should be acceptable.

I don't imagine there's any stats on torture (I.e. How many plots have been foiled due to interrogations) as it's typically a hush hush scenario in a base that doesn't exist so can't really judge the effectiveness

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no, not acceptable as you'd be just as bad as the person you're torturing - anyone who has the ability to hurt anyone, despite who that person is or what they do, should be classed as a danger to society imo

terrorists are extremely vicious and horrible people, but they were brainwashed into thinking what they think and they wouldn't tell you all that you know if you harm them or threaten to harm them... they don't care about pain

Everyone has a breaking point.

[Landon]

no, not acceptable as you'd be just as bad as the person you're torturing

Waterboarding, sleep deprivation, standing in a cell for a long time, etc. is not as bad as being:

shot with a gun
stabbed
cut
blown up by explosives
raped
etc.

Regardless, the attacker deserves the things listed above if he or she chose to do so to others.

[FlyingJesus]

One of the big problems with torture isn't the obvious moral ambiguity but the actual effectiveness - people can be forced to admit to things that simply aren't true under minimal coersion, let alone straight up torture

[Landon]

One of the big problems with torture isn't the obvious moral ambiguity but the actual effectiveness - people can be forced to admit to things that simply aren't true under minimal coersion, let alone straight up torture

Often times torture is used to get the person to admit something that investigators know already so as to make sure they are telling the truth.

[Empired]

Sinking to their level is never acceptable. Our governments should be leading by example.

[FlyingJesus]

Telling the truth once doesn't mean you're telling the truth the next time, especially when it's under duress. People are quite capable of saying one thing that's correct followed immediately by something that isn't, for example: literally everyone in the world ever

And why do you call me a liberal in your sig lol I'm nothing of the sort, about as much fiction as you winning these arguments

[Landon]

Sinking to their level is never acceptable. Our governments should be leading by example.

Leading by example by letting a murderer live peacefully in a cell?

[Empired]

Leading by example by letting a murderer live peacefully in a cell?
Yes. A murderer is still a person and I believe they deserve to be treated as one.

[Landon]

Yes. A murderer is still a person and I believe they deserve to be treated as one.

It's a moral issue. I'm all for torturing or even executing terrorists. Waste of a cell.

[RuthOnToast]

Dang right I think torture is acceptable. If you decide to attack a country with malicious intent to scare/harm/injure/kill people and others, you deserve torture and eventually death.

This why im not a fan of Americans they lack morals

[Brad]

This why im not a fan of Americans they lack morals

I'm sure that more than just Americans use torture as a means of interrogation.

[Landon]

This why im not a fan of Americans they lack morals
The funny thing is, there will be people that disagree with you or even hate you like this fine person, but that doesn't change the fact that if I said I hate the British on the forum, I would be banned lol everyone's feelings are so soft here. And they call us self centered lol, look at you.

[RuthOnToast]

The funny thing is, there will be people that disagree with you or even hate you like this fine person, but that doesn't change the fact that if I said I hate the British on the forum, I would be banned lol everyone's feelings are so soft here. And they call us self centered lol, look at you.

think you took my point the wrong way then

[Landon]

think you took my point the wrong way then

Yeah I did. And I find it offensive too.

[FlyingJesus]

Landon is triggered

[Landon]

Landon is triggered

Definitely so lol. Of the ignorance and idiocy that people have against America. If only people were more educated and actually met some Americans by traveling to the country and talking politics.

[Brad]

Just so we're all clear;


While we encourage you to discuss related topics to the main debate topic, please be mindful and do not stray too far from the main topic.

If y'all are going to argue in my debates... I will not have that.

[dbgtz]

I believe torture is an ineffective means to gaining information. Read up on it briefly just to see, and there is some. Obviously it's not particularly well documented so I don't hold my opinion strongly.
I would say, and this is something I believe has been reported on many times, and that is both innocent people being tortured and torture essentially "radicalising" someone. That definitely sways against using torture.

[Brad]

I believe torture is an ineffective means to gaining information. Read up on it briefly just to see, and there is some. Obviously it's not particularly well documented so I don't hold my opinion strongly.
I would say, and this is something I believe has been reported on many times, and that is both innocent people being tortured and torture essentially "radicalising" someone. That definitely sways against using torture.

Very interesting. And I agree with it not being well documented as researching this debate was quite difficult.
When you mean it's ineffective are you basing it off of what you had read briefly.
What are some of the things you were able to find?

[RuthOnToast]

Yeah I did. And I find it offensive too.

not really offensive to someone who thinks its ok to torture people who might even be innocent. it makes you look just as bad as they are

[Brad]

not really offensive to someone who thinks its ok to torture people who might even be innocent. it makes you look just as bad as they are

how do you determine whether they are actually innocent. Do you have proof of cases in which this situation had happened?

[scottish]

how do you determine whether they are actually innocent. Do you have proof of cases in which this situation had happened?

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/13/us/politics/amid-details-on-torture-data-on-26-held-in-error-.html?_r=0

[RuthOnToast]

how do you determine whether they are actually innocent. Do you have proof of cases in which this situation had happened?

Well idk if its happened with torture but hes happened for people on death row. anyway innocent or not its still wrong

[Empired]

It's a moral issue. I'm all for torturing or even executing terrorists. Waste of a cell.
That makes me so sad to read.

[Landon]

not really offensive to someone who thinks its ok to torture people who might even be innocent. it makes you look just as bad as they are

Okay, so I have no morals because I shouldn't want to extract information from terrorists lol. You have morals because you think that terrorists should have no justice and sit useless in a cell. Hell no in my world.


That makes me so sad to read.

Sorry. But I'm not going to sympathize with a terrorist lol

[RuthOnToast]

Okay, so I have no morals because I shouldn't want to extract information from terrorists lol. You have morals because you think that terrorists should have no justice and sit useless in a cell. Hell no in my world.



Sorry. But I'm not going to sympathize with a terrorist lol

Were not sympathising them but it seems odd to me that you want to do the same thing as they did which makes you the same

[MKR&*42]

How about we stop using the term 'moral' in debates until someone provides me with some actual decent evidence as to what is/isn't morally acceptable and can objectively prove why. I am sick of people using this term to describe any position they agree with and "immoral" for any position they don't agree with; it's just a redundant, useless term.

Saying X IS MORAL, Y IS IMMORAL is hardly debating, it's the worst kind of debating if we're even going to humour calling it that.

[Landon]

Were not sympathising them but it seems odd to me that you want to do the same thing as they did which makes you the same

You seem to really be showing sympathy but alright.

Anyways, it is not the same thing back at all. Most subject to torture are deemed threats to the nation. Torturing a supposed terrorist isn't the same as a terrorist for instance slaughtering people, detonating bombs, etc.
Take into account that people deemed "threats to the nation" are most likely terrorists.

Torturing is trying to extract information out of the murderers, the rapists, what have you for the good of others. Those that are horrible enough to do these things are the people that deserve to be tortured.

[Brad]

Okay, so I have no morals because I shouldn't want to extract information from terrorists lol. You have morals because you think that terrorists should have no justice and sit useless in a cell. Hell no in my world.

There should always be a trial in which those who are interrogated should have an opportunity to defend themselves. Although when it comes to getting time-sensitive information, some tactics are best used while needing information.

I think there should be steps in taking what is required to start torture for interrogation, but I think what is missed is that people misuse the tool of torture because they get caught up emotionally.

Thoughts? What are your thoughts on the other end of the spectrum that if there is not torture system and people go straight into prison, who would be paying for those individuals to stay in the prison... the government, so in the end unfortunately those who do wrong are justified through the government system for trial... if they get that far.
scottish; I've read that article you posted, and there's something that was brought to my attention;

Mr. Bashmilah has told them of being tortured in Jordan before he was handed over to the C.I.A., which at times kept him shackled alone in freezing-cold cells in Afghanistan, subjected to loud music 24 hours a day. He attempted suicide at least three times, once by saving pills and swallowing them all at once; once by slashing his wrists; and once by trying to hang himself. Another time he cut himself and used his own blood to write “this is unjust” on the wall.
So by this quote from Mr.Bashmilah's experience, it was not the Americans (CIA) who had performed the torture, but had taken him after that, so do you think that has anything to do with it?
Thoughts?

[Landon]

How about we stop using the term 'moral' in debates until someone provides me with some actual decent evidence as to what is/isn't morally acceptable and can objectively prove why. I am sick of people using this term to describe any position they agree with and "immoral" for any position they don't agree with; it's just a redundant, useless term.

Saying X IS MORAL, Y IS IMMORAL is hardly debating, it's the worst kind of debating if we're even going to humour calling it that.

There is no evidence to provide for what is moral and what is not. Different people hold different opinions as to what is and isn't moral.

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I think there should be steps in taking what is required to start torture for interrogation, but I think what is missed is that people misuse the tool of torture because they get caught up emotionally.

Yes, I agree with this completely. Although I do think that if information needs to be received quickly then an enhanced interrogation and acceptable technique such as waterboarding should be used. That way the person doesn't have the chance of dying.


Thoughts? What are your thoughts on the other end of the spectrum that if there is not torture system and people go straight into prison, who would be paying for those individuals to stay in the prison

The taxpayer would still have to pay like usual unfortunately.

[RuthOnToast]

You seem to really be showing sympathy but alright.

Anyways, it is not the same thing back at all. Most subject to torture are deemed threats to the nation. Torturing a supposed terrorist isn't the same as a terrorist for instance slaughtering people, detonating bombs, etc.
Take into account that people deemed "threats to the nation" are most likely terrorists.

Torturing is trying to extract information out of the murderers, the rapists, what have you for the good of others. Those that are horrible enough to do these things are the people that deserve to be tortured.

no im not showing sympathy im not going 'o you was going to bomb that bus? o well we stopped you doing that lets go have a cup of tea and cake' im saying no matter what someones done i don't think its right to torture them. so your saying someone harms someone so we harm them? so that is doing the same thing?

[scottish]

There should always be a trial in which those who are interrogated should have an opportunity to defend themselves. Although when it comes to getting time-sensitive information, some tactics are best used while needing information.

I think there should be steps in taking what is required to start torture for interrogation, but I think what is missed is that people misuse the tool of torture because they get caught up emotionally.

Thoughts? What are your thoughts on the other end of the spectrum that if there is not torture system and people go straight into prison, who would be paying for those individuals to stay in the prison... the government, so in the end unfortunately those who do wrong are justified through the government system for trial... if they get that far.
scottish; I've read that article you posted, and there's something that was brought to my attention;

So by this quote from Mr.Bashmilah's experience, it was not the Americans (CIA) who had performed the torture, but had taken him after that, so do you think that has anything to do with it?
Thoughts?

We're we only talking about the CIA?

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There is no evidence to provide for what is moral and what is not. Different people hold different opinions as to what is and isn't moral.

Wasn't that his point?

[Brad]

-------Debates Update------
From now on, I will implementing a new rule to debates. Please avoid using the word "moral" or "Immoral". There are other justifications to our debates in ways that can be more useful than saying something is "moral" or "immoral."

If you cannot debate further than those words, maybe try going to the "discuss anything" part of the forum.

Thanks. If you have any further questions, PLEASE PM me as I will be able to answer your questions there.

[scottish]

no im not showing sympathy im not going 'o you was going to bomb that bus? o well we stopped you doing that lets go have a cup of tea and cake' im saying no matter what someones done i don't think its right to torture them. so your saying someone harms someone so we harm them? so that is doing the same thing?

You're not torturing someone because they planned or carried out an attack, you torture them to prevent a future planned attack by obtaining the information they have on it in order to track those involved and foil the plan.

So if it's a oh you planned on doing that to the bus they'd probably go away to prison to rot but if they were involved in a multiple attack plan then they can be tortured for info on other attacks.

[Landon]

so your saying someone harms someone so we harm them? so that is doing the same thing?

Oh okay, if you mean literally physically harm them then yes, I agree. And yes, I believe they really do deserve it . Example: Dzhokhar Tsarnaev in the Boston Bombings. Wish they would have either tortured or enhance interrogated to get information out of him quickly so that the process would have went smoothly, we would have got any further details, and we would have seen justice. But no, he is still alive.

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Wasn't that his point?

Sorry for the confusion - this is what I was referencing.


someone provides me with some actual decent evidence as to what is/isn't morally acceptable and can objectively prove why

There is no way to give evidence as to what is/isn't "morally" acceptable.

[Brad]

We're we only talking about the CIA?

I based by response only off of what was supplied via the link.

[RuthOnToast]

Oh okay, if you mean literally physically harm them then yes, I agree. And yes, I believe they really do deserve it . Example: Dzhokhar Tsarnaev in the Boston Bombings. Wish they would have either tortured or enhance interrogated to get information out of him quickly so that the process would have went smoothly, we would have got any further details, and we would have seen justice. But no, he is still alive.

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But your still doing the same thing you said you dont your doing the same thing? they killed people so you kill them? so your punishing someone by doing the same thing?

[Landon]

But your still doing the same thing you said you dont your doing the same thing? they killed people so you kill them? so your punishing someone by doing the same thing?

I just told you literally it's the same thing yes. But the reason why/the justification is a lot different. If you go kill multiple people, having the government kill you is not the same reason as to why.

[RuthOnToast]

I just told you literally it's the same thing yes. But the reason why/the justification is a lot different. If you go kill multiple people, having the government kill you is not the same reason as to why.

Still can't get my head around the fact you think its ok to take someones left

[Landon]

Still can't get my head around the fact you think its ok to take someones left

What you do unto others deserves to be done unto you. That's all there is to it. You deserve to either feel the pain or experience what you did to the other person.

If we get back to the topic of torture, as scottish said, people are not tortured for no reason. The sole purpose is to extract information.

[zammy149]

fuck no torture is not okay. I think about all the people going through torture right now that dont deserve it, gives me a fucking headache every time i think about it. anyone nowadays can be labeled as a possible terrorist. I can look uphow to make bomb videos on youtube, and that can put me on the terrorist watch list. shit nowadays is moniterd

[-:Undertaker:-]

It is wrong for the state to employ torture yes.

On the battlefield however in certain circumstances I would not rule it out. It's easy for me to sit here and say it is terrible - and it is - but on the other hand could I see myself using it if I absolutely had to in order to save others lives or myself? You bet.


no, not acceptable as you'd be just as bad as the person you're torturing - anyone who has the ability to hurt anyone, despite who that person is or what they do, should be classed as a danger to society imo

terrorists are extremely vicious and horrible people, but they were brainwashed into thinking what they think and they wouldn't tell you all that you know if you harm them or threaten to harm them... they don't care about pain

Brainwashed? No, that's really what they believe.

There always seems to be this view amongst western liberals that their worldview is the de facto worldview and is universal, with anything deviating from this view the work of the media, poverty, lack of education or some other dross reason as though deep down everyone is a Justin Trudeau at heart. It is not. In fact, on most issues you're in a very tiny historical anomaly when you look at cultures around the world and what their views/attitudes have been like.

The people wanting to murder you for not being muslim believe in what they're doing very much.

[Brad]

Hi everyone,
I apologise for my lack of debates as there was an issue in my personal life that had to be dealt with. (which will probably be used as a debate next week)

Thank you to all who had participated in this Debate. It is now closed.
Remember that there will be a couple more debates posted by the beginning of next week.

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