Manchester arena 'explosion'.

[_spirit]

Police are responding to a "serious incident" in Manchester amid reports of an "explosion" following a pop concert. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-40007886


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[Samantha]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-40007886

Police have now confirmed there have been a number of fatalities (that's what's on Sky News anyway).

Seems serious, but a lot of it's speculation for now!

[_spirit]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170522/03a3a9b843ed236aaf1be4e99f054427.png


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[lemons]

Terrible, loads of different reports on where it happened and what it was (bomb, speaker system etc)

Loads of children without guardians are in the local Holiday Inn

[Samantha]

British Transport Police have said it was in the foyer, but the cause is still not known.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I can feel my blood pressure already rising.

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[-:Undertaker:-]

If this is what we think it is then response needs to be anger and action, not candles and tears. Enough of this.

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[FlyingJesus]

Well of course they're using anti-terrorist protocols - they don't know what happened yet and that's what looks a likely answer, but all psychic predictions are pointless right now. At the moment it's very much the time for caring and not getting angry about what might have happened. Making sure everyone is as safe as they can be right now is the priority, pointing fingers doesn't help at this moment in time

[-:Undertaker:-]

Here's some footage from tonight below so people understand exactly what it is that the odious London Mayor Sadiq Khan believes we should basically get used to as it's 'part and parcel' of big city life. I don't accept this as part of British life and never ever will.

UNCONFIRMED reports of a gunman outside Oldham Hospital. The place is on lockdown.

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UNCONFIRMED new reports of package found as Manchester Cathedral.

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[Samantha]

19 people confirmed dead, 50 injured.

[-:Undertaker:-]

866808564316344321

[lemons]

Worst terror attack since 7/7 12 years ago

[-:Undertaker:-]

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[lemons]

Controlled explosion was abandoned clothing, better safe than sorry

[FlyingJesus]

There are people posting images of randomers on twitter claiming that they're missing persons, how fucked up do you have to be to take away search efforts from people who actually need them

[Rixion]

This is so frightening :(

- - - Updated - - -

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[Joe]

Death toll now at 22

Fuck this world

[_spirit]

22 killed and 59 injured


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[-:Undertaker:-]

If this is Islamic State then this is a direct attack on our soil I want airstrikes to pound the living daylights out of them.

And more.

866906792831406081

866945533679742977

[buttons]

why an ariana grande concert

[Matt]

I know about five people that went to Ariana Grande's concert, as far as I know they're all ok.

Such a senseless act, I can't imagine what it would've been like trying to get out. I think it raises a serious question about the security of such venues - they're incredibly hard to protect and if terrorists can cause such havoc without even entering the actual arena ...

I imagine in the coming days more information will emerge about both the attacker and the victims. Poor Ariana :(

RIP to those who have died <3

[Samantha]

The Arndale has had an evacuation, surrounding areas have been evacuated too.

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[Joe]

The Arndale has had an evacuation, surrounding areas have been evacuated too.

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Now reopened

Armed police have arrested a male

[Lewis]

Another terrible attack :(. RIP to those who lost their lives.

I was looking at the twitter of one of the victims and one of her tweets before the incident sent shivers down my spine, as it said: "Kill me, kill me, kill me, tell me they're in Manchester" or something similar.

[-:Undertaker:-]

866974873402433536


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DAgdpqeXUAEVPoR.jpg

[lemons]

Another terrible attack :(. RIP to those who lost their lives.

I was looking at the twitter of one of the victims and one of her tweets before the incident sent shivers down my spine, as it said: "Kill me, kill me, kill me, tell me they're in Manchester" or something similar.

It was 18 y/o Georgina who tweeted that but that was about her being excited that her friends were coming to visit her I believe. She tweeted this last year

@ArianaGrande i miss you sooo much - can wait to see you on the dw tour, its gonna kill me

very chilling

[wixard]

why an ariana grande concert

loads of reasons

her demographic (young girls, gays)
her popularity
her 'promiscuity'

[Samantha]

8 year old Saffie Roussos has been confirmed dead now.

[FlyingJesus]

loads of reasons

her demographic (young girls, gays)
her popularity
her 'promiscuity'

Also it's an attack on both Britain and America by using one of their biggest stars of the moment, so gives it all more publicity which is what terror's really about.

IS have now claimed the attack but they claim anything they can, truth is we probably won't know if the bomber was actually affiliated with them or a solo nutjob

[Charlie]

Doing something like that is bad enough, but to do it at a concert where there is loads of children is even worse. In the clip where you can hear the explosion, the point where the explosion happens and the screaming gets louder as the clip goes on is horrible. I hope anyone who is still searching for someone who is missing finds them. I find it disgusting also that people are posting fake missing people, in times like these we need to come together and help, not make matters worse.

It just makes you feel like you can't do anything without the risk of someone doing something like this, for whatever reasons they have.

[scottish]

PM May says police believe they know the attacker's identity but won't reveal it for now
A 23-year-old man has been arrested in connection with the incident

[Samantha]

John Atkinson the 3rd victim named.

[hungryfront]

My heart goes out to all the families.

It's difficult to combat this type of thing as we don't know who they are.

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[Elegance]

bomb threats in schools today, 2 in my area
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/bomb-threats-across-uk-schools-8031639

my town was/is full of armed police after someone was seen walking around with a knife and someone else was in shops asking staff for baseball bats and large blades apparently, scary world :(

[Charlie]

bomb threats in schools today, 2 in my area
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/bomb-threats-across-uk-schools-8031639

my town was/is full of armed police after someone was seen walking around with a knife and someone else was in shops asking staff for baseball bats and large blades apparently, scary world :(

It says under the header of that article, it's from 2016 but it's being shared today because of what's happened.

They've released the name of the bomber now.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/23/salman-abedi-named-manchester-suicide-bomber-know/

[Elegance]

It says under the header of that article, it's from 2016 but it's being shared today because of what's happened.

They've released the name of the bomber now.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/23/salman-abedi-named-manchester-suicide-bomber-know/

ahhhh misunderstanding, seen it all over my timeline and presumed it was today!

[FlyingJesus]

22 years old, what kind of person is so full of hate at that age that they feel the need to go and murder people in their own home town. Disgusting and also very sad

[Chris]

Just awful :( Bad enough that anyone died, but when kids are killed it just amplifies it.

[lawrawrrr]

FUCK EVERYTHING. Fucking kids man. Children at a concert. Been feeling just so awful reading and watching all the news all day. Fuck terrorists and fuck people who think it's fine to blow up children. Not gonna stop us though is it cos we're better than that.

[lemons]

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[-:Undertaker:-]

My heart goes out to all the families.

It's difficult to combat this type of thing as we don't know who they are.

Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk

But we do know who many of them are. They're muslims following a minority form of Islam but of which a sizable portion follow and many of them in the hundreds to the thousands across this country are being watched by security services. The problem is, as the numbers of that demographic increase, security services cannot possibly monitor 24/7. This is already the case in France and Belgium where security services now cannot cope due to the numbers of them in the country, it is only because our security is better that we haven't had more attacks.


22 years old, what kind of person is so full of hate at that age that they feel the need to go and murder people in their own home town. Disgusting and also very sad

Radical Islam? What was being taught and preached in the caves of Afghanistan and deserts of Saudi Arabia is now being preached in British mosques, Islamic schools and in the prison system. We've been culturally 'enriched'.


FUCK EVERYTHING. Fucking kids man. Children at a concert. Been feeling just so awful reading and watching all the news all day. Fuck terrorists and fuck people who think it's fine to blow up children. Not gonna stop us though is it cos we're better than that.

But it is already stopping us. It's stopped those people who are now dead. It's resulting in airport security to go to simple events like a concert, catching the tube or a football match. It's resulting in an atmosphere where you can no longer criticise a certain religion as new blasphemy laws are being brought in. Where comedians are afraid to mock a religion because of the death threats they then receive as a result. It's resulted in the military being deployed on our streets.

It's all very well saying they're not winning but they are. And they know it.

[lawrawrrr]

But we do know who many of them are. They're muslims following a minority form of Islam but of which a sizable portion follow and many of them in the hundreds to the thousands across this country are being watched by security services. The problem is, as the numbers of that demographic increase, security services cannot possibly monitor 24/7. This is already the case in France and Belgium where security services now cannot cope due to the numbers of them in the country, it is only because our security is better that we haven't had more attacks.



Radical Islam? What was being taught and preached in the caves of Afghanistan and deserts of Saudi Arabia is now being preached in British mosques, Islamic schools and in the prison system. We've been culturally 'enriched'.



But it is already stopping us. It's stopped those people who are now dead. It's resulting in airport security to go to simple events like a concert, catching the tube or a football match. It's resulting in an atmosphere where you can no longer criticise a certain religion as new blasphemy laws are being brought in. Where comedians are afraid to mock a religion because of the death threats they then receive as a result. It's resulted in the military being deployed on our streets.

It's all very well saying they're not winning but they are. And they know it.
HOW ARE THEY WINNING?

HAS THE UK SHUT DOWN? HAVE WE ALL GONE HOME IN FEAR? NO. Thousands of people were LITERALLY OUT IN THE TOWN SQUARE. That's being fucking defiant in the face of these *****. So fuck off saying they've won. It hasn't stopped the British people - the Parisian people - LGBT people (Manchester; Bataclan; Pulse just three examples).

They won't stop. This war will go on for years and years and noone has any clue how it's going to bloody end but they have not and will not win against the strength of us pulling together in solidarity.

[-:Undertaker:-]

HOW ARE THEY WINNING?

HAS THE UK SHUT DOWN? HAVE WE ALL GONE HOME IN FEAR? NO. Thousands of people were LITERALLY OUT IN THE TOWN SQUARE. That's being fucking defiant in the face of these *****. So fuck off saying they've won. It hasn't stopped the British people - the Parisian people - LGBT people (Manchester; Bataclan; Pulse just three examples).

They won't stop. This war will go on for years and years and noone has any clue how it's going to bloody end but they have not and will not win against the strength of us pulling together in solidarity.

Thousands of people in a square reading poems and crying. That'll show people who are waging a holy war.

Rinse, repeat at the next attack. And the next attack. And the next...

[lawrawrrr]

Thousands of people in a square reading poems and crying. That'll show people who are waging a holy war.

Rinse, repeat at the next attack. And the next attack. And the next...
whatever the fuck they're doing they're not cowering in fear in their houses are they they are gathering in solidarity to each other- thousands of upset people COMFORTING EACH OTHER

i know you think it's weak and disgusting for people to cry and feel upset but us non-lizard people find it pretty comforting

[FlyingJesus]

So what's your plan Dan, kill everyone whose skin is in a certain range of brown tones? You're the weakest person here because you've given in to the terror and let them win - over you. Not over the country, not over civilisation, just over you

[-:Undertaker:-]

I read before that the attacker was born to two Libyan refugees.

How wonderful, that's really benefitted our nation. Thanks 'Sir' John Major for that enrichment we couldn't live without.


whatever the fuck they're doing they're not cowering in fear in their houses are they they are gathering in solidarity to each other- thousands of upset people COMFORTING EACH OTHER

i know you think it's weak and disgusting for people to cry and feel upset but us non-lizard people feel it pretty comforting

Yes but that doesn't mean we're winning.

The very fact we're having to comfort each other every few months now shows the acceleration in attacks. Our response? More crying, more poems and more candles. Total non-action that means absolutely nothing to jihadists hellbent on waging a holy war. Utterly pathetic. If you read Jihadist literature and beliefs they even state amongst themselves that they believe we're weak, and increasingly we're more than willing to show them just how weak we are.

How about instead of tears, candles and cards we start responding with missiles, military action, anti-extremism and deportations?


So what's your plan Dan, kill everyone whose skin is in a certain range of brown tones? You're the weakest person here because you've given in to the terror and let them win - over you. Not over the country, not over civilisation, just over you

Using the race card to justify non-action against radical Islam, utter cowardice.

You'll be on your knees telling me you'll never let them win. I would prefer to go down fighting.

[myles]

poeple need to stop jumping on this bandwagon yea its sad that all those people died but what can u do? what r u gonna do? go to manchester and pay ur respects? go on then love would love to see u do that? make sure u attach ur evidence of doing so... oh and for the record why dont u record urself putting a bunch of flowers down at the memorial too while u squeeze out those crocodile tears for rts?

[FlyingJesus]

I'm not the one who brought up the race card lol what the actual fuck are you on about and if you want to go down fighting then go fight, don't sit in your cosy home telling us all to be worried about everyone who doesn't look like us. Again, what's your plan

[lawrawrrr]

I read before that the attacker was born to two Libyan refugees.

How wonderful, that's really benefitted our nation. Thanks 'Sir' John Major for that enrichment we couldn't live without.



Yes but that doesn't mean we're winning.

The very fact we're having to comfort each other every few months now shows the acceleration in attacks. Our response? More crying, more poems and more candles. Total non-action that means absolutely nothing to jihadists hellbent on waging a holy war. Utterly pathetic. If you read Jihadist literature and beliefs they even state amongst themselves that they believe we're weak, and increasingly we're more than willing to show them just how weak we are.

How about instead of tears, candles and cards we start responding with missiles, military action, anti-extremism and deportations?
Yes but that doesn't mean they're winning. Noone's winning here. Just because the community - who CAN'T ACTUALLY DO ANYTHING OF USE -are supporting each other, why the fuck does that mean that NOONES doing anything? The government and security services are doing everything they can to prevent terrorist attacks, watching so many people and they thwart SO MANY attempts - a few just slip through and their first attempt is successful.

Yeah I'm so amazed that jihadists call us weak that tends to be what people waging a war tend to do to their enemies. But we're not weak, we're banding together and showing support, not running away and throwing people out there by themselves to defend themselves. We are a BRITISH PEOPLE, not millions of individuals. A group, a united group, supporting each other is so much stronger than millions of individuals. And if ISIS think they can break that spirit, then no matter what people like YOU think, they're fucking as wrong as wrong can be.

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poeple need to stop jumping on this bandwagon yea its sad that all those people died but what can u do? what r u gonna do? go to manchester and pay ur respects? go on then love would love to see u do that? make sure u attach ur evidence of doing so... oh and for the record why dont u record urself putting a bunch of flowers down at the memorial too while u squeeze out those crocodile tears for rts?
oh how dare i actually be sympathetic to people who have lost children and friends and family and genuinely feel sad that an 8 yr old was KILLED

if you don't feel sad then there's something wrong with you.


and yeah this actually affects everyone you know? the entire UK terror threat is at critical and I work METRES from the 7/7 bombings so yes, I'm bloody terrified of what might happen tomorrow

so no. it's not a fucking hashtag it's not a fucking bandwagon its genuine human sympathy

[-:Undertaker:-]

I'm not the one who brought up the race card lol what the actual fuck are you on about and if you want to go down fighting then go fight, don't sit in your cosy home telling us all to be worried about everyone who doesn't look like us. Again, what's your plan

I just spelt out the plan.

Military action against this state given it has clearly declared war against us. Secondly, no more cowering to Islam in public life. No more protection in law for this religion from criticism or mockery. Close the Islamic schools down. Insert undercover state security into mosques. Ban the burqa. Severely restrict immigration from Islamic countries, with total bans on nations such as Syria, Libya, Iraq and other Wahabbi Islam hotbeds. Begin mass arrests and deportations of those under watch. Mass raids to take place in muslim areas.

Or we could just have a cry and wait like sitting ducks until the next one.


Yes but that doesn't mean they're winning. Noone's winning here. Just because the community - who CAN'T ACTUALLY DO ANYTHING OF USE -are supporting each other, why the fuck does that mean that NOONES doing anything? The government and security services are doing everything they can to prevent terrorist attacks, watching so many people and they thwart SO MANY attempts - a few just slip through and their first attempt is successful.

Yeah I'm so amazed that jihadists call us weak that tends to be what people waging a war tend to do to their enemies. But we're not weak, we're banding together and showing support, not running away and throwing people out there by themselves to defend themselves. We are a BRITISH PEOPLE, not millions of individuals. A group, a united group, supporting each other is so much stronger than millions of individuals. And if ISIS think they can break that spirit, then no matter what people like YOU think, they're fucking as wrong as wrong can be.

All just meaningless words i'm afraid that will be forgotten in a week and then revived at the next attack.

I'm as patriotic as can be but I am not deluding myself. You're facing people here who believe in the end of the world via a holy war. Clutching teddy bears, crying and saying you have spirit only confirms their belief that Allah is on their side and the conquest of the world by Islam is a matter of time. And given the reaction of the west in recent years to it all, they're on to something.

Tears and public poems didn't beat the Nazis - bombs, fighting and standing up for our civilisation via action did.

[Landon]

It's time to show some action rather than the good ole candlelight vigils and UK profile pictures. Let's start to make a dent in the cause and show them we ain't fucking around.

Yes, it's a terrible attack. Yes, grieving is okay. But we need more than that. Wake up. If you don't, we repeat the process.

[myles]

like i said its sad and its ok to be sympathetic but i wasnt targeting a specific person i think u might have perceived it that way but i totally wasnt i was just saying that all these people are making such a fuss over 22 people who died.... so r u also gonna grieve for all the children in africa who are being killed? what about all the people in underdeveloped countries who are dying due to starvation? yeah its sad too but why arent u making the same fuss for these people? it seems that people only seem to pipe up when something like this happens and in a weeks time everyone will be back to their daily lives and forget about the whole ordeal. it seems kinda selfish to me and if youre gonna be so vocal about such issues why arent you speaking up for all these other devastating events you hear on the news? im not saying im upset that children were killed i just find it ridiculous how people are crying over it like its their own child?

[lawrawrrr]

you can't just deport someone who they just have a hunch about have you ever even heard of the criminal justice system

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oh and wonderful i love the BUT SOMEONE ELSE HAS IT WORSE argument that's just great

[Landon]

you can't just deport someone who they just have a hunch about have you ever even heard of the criminal justice system

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oh and wonderful i love the BUT SOMEONE ELSE HAS IT WORSE argument that's just great

Then what do you suggest we do about this? Nothing? Appears so to me.

[dbgtz]

Is there any actual evidence behind the guys reasoning? Like his parents, the actual immigrants, weren't the ones to cause this so it wasn't a cause of him coming here and then blowing shit up. He was born and raised here which makes it a very different issue.
Worth noting his parents actually went back to Libya (from what I read anyway).

At the moment all I seem to be reading is assumptions.

[-:Undertaker:-]

you can't just deport someone who they just have a hunch about have you ever even heard of the criminal justice system

Thousands are currently being watched by security, meaning there must be grounds for watching them. The evidence is there. Deport whoever possible and arrest the rest of them. Personally, I think fear of upsetting followers of this religion is what is preventing action being taken as they're terrified of riots beginning - that's why for example in France and Belgium (Molenbeek), areas known to be hotbeds of Islamic extremism have effectively been abandoned by state security services because any attempt to carry out raids is met with stones being thrown, petrol bombs and riots.

It's the same reason why nothing was done over the Rotherham child abuse. Afraid to confront the problem. For all the talk of bravery and standing up to them, they know very well our governments are weak and we are weak for allowing it.

[myles]

but its true? if ur going to be so adamant at getting justice and making yourself seem like such a good person for these 22 killed and 50 something injured why dont you focus on the other thousands of people in this world who are fighting for their lives and dying due to many injustices in this cruel and sick world.

[lawrawrrr]

Then what do you suggest we do about this? Nothing? Appears so to me.
you watch them and put thousands of man hours on watching their every move and monitoring what they do

like they do to everyone else on the list

which results in thwarting hundreds of terror plots and threats

the two who have "slipped through the net" recently were effectively first time offenders so there was no way they could have been stopped. Unless we just deported everyone I guess then the country would be totes safe

actually you know what all recent terror attacks have been male, not all have been muslims

DEPORT ALL MEN!!!! DEPORT ALL MEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[FlyingJesus]

Military action against this state given it has clearly declared war against us.

Cool story how you gonna do that when they aren't based in one particular place and use civilian shields as soon as any hint of attack comes their way?


No more protection in law for this religion from criticism or mockery.

Isn't a thing anyway


Close the Islamic schools down.

There are 23 in the entire country out of 24,372 so go ahead that won't do a lot


Insert undercover state security into mosques.

You get more and more authoritarian with every post it's hilarious


Ban the burqa.

Yeah that'll show 'em! Take away someone's hat, that's how to solve terrorism


Severely restrict immigration from Islamic countries, with total bans on nations such as Syria, Libya, Iraq and other Wahabbi Islam hotbeds.

The only possibly pragmatic thing you've said, but kinda pointless considering this guy was born and raised here


Begin mass arrests and deportations of those under watch.

You can't arrest people if they haven't done anything, that's a terrifying thought in itself


Mass raids to take place in muslim areas.

Ok so you're finally admitting to just hating Islam in general rather than actual criminals

[scottish]

Say the words and his account is gone.

RIP.

[Absently]

why do we always have to do this in these threads? can't people just simply mourn the dead without turning it into a massive fucking debate? jesus fucking christ

[lemons]

Undertaker raises interesting points that I may not completely agree with but millions of people will be sharing similar views on!

[FlyingJesus]

but its true? if ur going to be so adamant at getting justice and making yourself seem like such a good person for these 22 killed and 50 something injured why dont you focus on the other thousands of people in this world who are fighting for their lives and dying due to many injustices in this cruel and sick world.

So what you're saying is no-one can ever be upset about anything or mention a single tragedy unless they also talk about everything else that's ever been bad in all of history. Righto.

[Landon]

you watch them and put thousands of man hours on watching their every move and monitoring what they do

like they do to everyone else on the list

which results in thwarting hundreds of terror plots and threats

the two who have "slipped through the net" recently were effectively first time offenders so there was no way they could have been stopped. Unless we just deported everyone I guess then the country would be totes safe

actually you know what all recent terror attacks have been male, not all have been muslims

DEPORT ALL MEN!!!! DEPORT ALL MEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Essentially what you are summarizing is that we do nothing. Okay.

[lawrawrrr]

Thousands are currently being watched by security, meaning there must be grounds for watching them. The evidence is there. Personally, I think fear of upsetting followers of this religion is what is preventing action being taken as they're terrified of riots beginning - that's why for example in France and Belgium (Molenbeek), areas known to be hotbeds of Islamic extremism have effectively been abandoned by state security services because any attempt to carry out raids is met with stones being thrown, petrol bombs and riots.

It's the same reason why nothing was done over the Rotherham child abuse. Afraid to confront the problem.
ok so obviously you get your news from the wonderful and always totally accurate tabloids cos MI5 haven't release the list of people on th watch list.

Also... deporting people isn't really in fear of upsetting followers it's probably more to do with there's very little evidence for most, they're just BEING WATCHED

I have a Habbox watch list and it's the same CONCEPT as that. I don't ban those people, I just have a funny feeling about them so I carefully watch their posts, check IPs occasionally, etc, and occasionally one does get to the level where they endanger habboxers so we do the best we can to mitigate the damage and move on.

[Landon]

why do we always have to do this in these threads? can't people just simply mourn the dead without turning it into a massive fucking debate? jesus fucking christ

This is the current affairs forum. Based on the sticky, you should expect political arguments.

[myles]

So what you're saying is no-one can ever be upset about anything or mention a single tragedy unless they also talk about everything else that's ever been bad in all of history. Righto.
no im just frustrated that worse things happen in the world and they dont get the same recognition in the media. the fact that it was an ariana grande concert is perhaps the only reason why this has gone world wide

[lawrawrrr]

Essentially what you are summarizing is that we do nothing. Okay.
essentially what i am summarising is that the general public are literally useless


essentially what i am summarising is deporting ALL MUSLIMS is bloody ridiculous because there are thousands who have never even had a terrorist thought in their life.

and like i said in my post above being on a watch list doesn't necessarily mean you should be deprted (or banned in my example) right away. But I understand why that's quite hard to comprehend. It's very clear what you and Dan both think should happen but it's not exactly humane :P

[Landon]

It's very clear what you and Dan both think should happen but it's not exactly humane :P

Perhaps the old-time definition of humane needs to change in today's society.

[scottish]

i don't think Ariana grande has any impact on how newsworthy this has been, maybe a slight bit due to her target audience (young girls). If it's was a concert with 50 year olds coming out it would still be as newsworthy.

[lawrawrrr]

no im just frustrated that worse things happen in the world and they dont get the same recognition in the media. the fact that it was an ariana grande concert is perhaps the only reason why this has gone world wide
it's true that western tragedies get more cover than african/middle east/asian but that's for the same reason that news from scotland rarely reaches me here in london.... it's not local

we as a human race tend to be more sympathetic to our "own kind" because it's very easy to imagine yourself in that situation. I can't imagine being in a war zone in Syria or Libya for example but I can very much imagine being in Manchester so it's much more real
to me. And to thousands of others.

Many of the other "worse things in the world" are reported on in exactly the same way, but they just don't get shared because we can't imagine ourselves in those situations.

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Perhaps the old-time definition of humane needs to change in today's society.
ok please redefine it i'd literally love to know what you think is humane

[myles]

it's true that western tragedies get more cover than african/middle east/asian but that's for the same reason that news from scotland rarely reaches me here in london.... it's not local

we as a human race tend to be more sympathetic to our "own kind" because it's very easy to imagine yourself in that situation. I can't imagine being in a war zone in Syria or Libya for example but I can very much imagine being in Manchester so it's much more real
to me. And to thousands of others.

Many of the other "worse things in the world" are reported on in exactly the same way, but they just don't get shared because we can't imagine ourselves in those situations.

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ok please redefine it i'd literally love to know what you think is humane

yeah i udnerstand what ur saying i guess but its still annoying how this is going to bbe the topic of discussion for a sold week and i just cant deal with it

[lemons]

MY opinion on matters:

London Mayor Sadiq Khan was right by saying that terrorism is “part and parcel of living in a big city”. Terrorism is hardly a new concept and an attack can happen at any moment whatever the national threat level is. Events like this, as tragic as they are, allow for important debate and discussion on how we can prevent (not stop - we can't) further attacks as well as letting us pay our respects in whatever ways we want.

Honestly I don't think there is much we can do. We can bomb Syria as much as we like it's never going to eradicate terrorists, nor will deporting every single Muslim or everyone on a watch list in this country. It's a matter of intelligence these days, which already prevents many many planned terror attacks but obviously didn't help in this case.

[lawrawrrr]

yeah i udnerstand what ur saying i guess but its still annoying how this is going to bbe the topic of discussion for a sold week and i just cant deal with it
i'd be surprised if it's just a week. but this is something close to home for all of us and that is why - someone in germany isn't going to be even thinking about it beyond tomorrow probably - but we are because it's scary and it just happened to us

if your house got broken into tonight i'd be like omg myles I'm so sorry, but it's not gonna make me much more worried about my own house. Next door gets broken into? I'm gonna be scared that thieves are targetting my area and worry about that. Same concept.

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MY opinion on matters:

London Mayor Sadiq Khan was right by saying that terrorism is “part and parcel of living in a big city”. Terrorism is hardly a new concept and an attack can happen at any moment whatever the national threat level is. Events like this, as tragic as they are, allow for important debate and discussion on how we can prevent (not stop - we can't) further attacks as well as letting us pay our respects in whatever ways we want.

Honestly I don't think there is much we can do. We can bomb Syria as much as we like it's never going to eradicate terrorists, nor will deporting every single Muslim or everyone on a watch list in this country. It's a matter of intelligence these days, which already prevents many many planned terror attacks but obviously didn't help in this case.
+1.

[dbgtz]

http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/1872-width/20160910_WOC962.png

Also whoever mentioned bombs, that seems like a terrible idea.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I'll see you all in the next terrorist attack thread in a few months (or weeks) time to repeat much the same thing.

But you never know. Crying, using hashtags, changing your profile picture, hugging a muslim and singing John Lennon's 'Imagine' around a piano in a public square might just scare and thus convince the Islamists into halting their holy war. We'll wait and see.

My own opinion on this trajectory is quite pessimistic. The attacks in western nations will continue to spiral to levels where security services can no longer deal with them, and public anger will then boil over in the years to come where leaders who make Marine Le Pen and Geert Wilders look soft will be elected. Civil liberties won't even be a thought. In the end, people will be pushed to it.

[FlyingJesus]

Civil liberties won't even be a thought.

Not if you have your way

[Landon]

ok please redefine it i'd literally love to know what you think is humane

I'm not exactly certain, but what I will say is that showing compassion, as the definition of humane states, isn't ideal in today's world. Things have to be done to protect others.

Like Dan said. We'll see each other here in a few days/weeks/months doing the same thing, crying, promoting vigils, and flashing the country's flags to try to cope with this. Not gonna work - once again.

[_spirit]

I'm not exactly certain, but what I will say is that showing compassion, as the definition of humane states, isn't ideal in today's world. Things have to be done to protect others.

Like Dan said. We'll see each other here in a few days/weeks/months doing the same thing, crying, promoting vigils, and flashing the country's flags to try to cope with this. Not gonna work - once again.

Vigils is away for loved ones and close friends for some closure of what has happend. That's is why I love living in the UK because no matter how bad things will get everyone is always there for each other.

[buttons]

more victims. the polish couple who went to pick up their children (the children are safe). martin hett the guy who was going to america. kelly brewster, the lady who shielded her niece, alison howe and lisa lees who also went to pick up children, olivia campbell the 15 year old whose mum appealed for her on tv, megan hurley a schoolgirl.

[wixard]

honestly Landon go crawl back up dans arse

Compassion shows humanity, a sense of unity is extremely important to all those involved as well as those wishing they COULD do something.

why is this always the go to 'insult' after a terror attack? Genuinely don't understand how being a decent human being somehow gets in the way of wanting peace and an end to it all

[-:Undertaker:-]

Douglas Murray nails it.

867346919625863169

[hungryfront]

Thousands are currently being watched by security, meaning there must be grounds for watching them. The evidence is there. Deport whoever possible and arrest the rest of them. Personally, I think fear of upsetting followers of this religion is what is preventing action being taken as they're terrified of riots beginning - that's why for example in France and Belgium (Molenbeek), areas known to be hotbeds of Islamic extremism have effectively been abandoned by state security services because any attempt to carry out raids is met with stones being thrown, petrol bombs and riots.

It's the same reason why nothing was done over the Rotherham child abuse. Afraid to confront the problem. For all the talk of bravery and standing up to them, they know very well our governments are weak and we are weak for allowing it.
That's right - we should deport all men because a couple are rapists. Off you go, Dan!

Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk

[wixard]

To be fair he's never once said that... he has said the ones on the watch list and he's right

[Landon]

honestly Landon go crawl back up dans arse

Compassion shows humanity, a sense of unity is extremely important to all those involved as well as those wishing they COULD do something.

why is this always the go to 'insult' after a terror attack? Genuinely don't understand how being a decent human being somehow gets in the way of wanting peace and an end to it all

I'd rather bomb the hell out of ISIS, make a mark, and teach them a lesson than sit around and cry and change your twitter profile picture. If you'd do the latter than go for it.

Pretty easy to sit behind a keyboard and complain. Wish I could be involved in making the decisions because I'd deal with it plenty different than making sure a nation grieves instead of doing jackshit.

[dbgtz]

How stupid do you have to be to advocate bombing when said bombing is probably the reasoning behind most of this. When someone says "we're doing this because you're bombing us", the immediate reaction shouldn't be, "let's keep bombing them".

[lemons]

I'd rather bomb the hell out of ISIS, make a mark, and teach them a lesson than sit around and cry and change your twitter profile picture. If you'd do the latter than go for it.

Pretty easy to sit behind a keyboard and complain. Wish I could be involved in making the decisions because I'd deal with it plenty different than making sure a nation grieves instead of doing jackshit.

how is bombing isis in syria etc going to prevent attacks in western countries where the attackers were born and bred :o

[FlyingJesus]

I'd rather bomb the hell out of ISIS, make a mark, and teach them a lesson

How you gonna do that kid

[-:Undertaker:-]

How stupid do you have to be to advocate bombing when said bombing is probably the reasoning behind most of this. When someone says "we're doing this because you're bombing us", the immediate reaction shouldn't be, "let's keep bombing them".

This is the same western self-blame line I used to buy into as well. It simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny. If you look at the latest thread I posted on the Philippines, the last time I checked the Philippines was not conducting airstrikes over Syria.

You're still not getting it. These people are engaged in what they view as an end of times Holy War with us. They're not doing it because they're being bombed in response to their vile actions, or because they were bullied in school, or because they feel alienated in western society - they're doing it because they believe that this is - to quote Murray below - everything. You cannot reason with or win them over. They're fanatical. And they must be destroyed.


If there was any other religion apart from Islam that posed the societal questions that I think Islam does, we would be able to deal with it. It’s one of the themes in the book: that we aren’t able to because we don’t understand it. We don’t understand what it means to the people in question. We talk about it as a set of liberties or rights and these are people for whom it is their everything. Heaven, hell, death, life, love, God — everything.”

via http://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/douglas-murray-on-immigration-islam-and-identity-a3530586.html

[Landon]

how is bombing isis in syria etc going to prevent attacks in western countries where the attackers were born and bred :o

Quote me, where did I ever say we need to bomb ISIS in Syria? I believe we need to bomb areas of the middle east as a whole.


How stupid do you have to be to advocate bombing when said bombing is probably the reasoning behind most of this. When someone says "we're doing this because you're bombing us", the immediate reaction shouldn't be, "let's keep bombing them".

They're bombing us so let's not bomb them? How's that working out? I don't see many real bombings going on - if any. That's why I want to start. They'd look amateur compared to the power that we can bring.


How you gonna do that kid

I can't! But the method I'm fighting for works better than crying, hugging each other, lighting candles, changing your profile pic, letting in more potential terrorists, etc. :)

[dbgtz]

This is the same western self-blame line I used to buy into as well. It simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny. If you look at the latest thread I posted on the Philippines, the last time I checked the Philippines was not conducting airstrikes over Syria.

You're still not getting it. These people are engaged in what they view as an end of times Holy War with us. They're not doing it because they're being bombed in response to their vile actions, or because they were bullied in school, or because they feel alienated in western society - they're doing it because they believe that this is - to quote Murray below - everything. You cannot reason with or win them over. They're fanatical. And they must be destroyed.

I can only imagine the situation being different, but alas I have not researched. All I can say is, I trust what they say to be the reason more than what you claim to be the reason. In fact, you've literally just made a bunch of assumptions without any evidence.


They're bombing us so let's not bomb them? How's that working out? I don't see many real bombings going on - if any. That's why I want to start. They'd look amateur compared to the power that we can bring.

Uh, the west have been in the middle east long before Islamic terrorism in the west. That last sentence is quite funny though, "the power that we can bring". You mean taking 10 years to find one man who was in his house? Or being involved in a region for about 13 years, making no difference whatsoever?

[lemons]

Quote me, where did I ever say we need to bomb ISIS in Syria? I believe we need to bomb areas of the middle east as a whole.



and that includes syria where a lot of isis is based

you didnt answer my question

[FlyingJesus]

They're not doing it because they're being bombed

Chillingly uncaring quotes from the family suggest that's exactly why Salman Abedi did what he did. Religion is the excuse, not the reason

[-:Undertaker:-]

Chillingly uncaring quotes from the family suggest that's exactly why Salman Abedi did what he did. Religion is the excuse, not the reason

Enlighten us as to why he and countless other muslims then who are followers of a certain strain of Islam have decided to commit such terrible acts? Tell me the reason he and others do this. They can't possibly all have mean and uncaring families, can they?


I can only imagine the situation being different, but alas I have not researched. All I can say is, I trust what they say to be the reason more than what you claim to be the reason. In fact, you've literally just made a bunch of assumptions without any evidence.

Exactly, you haven't researched it but here you are telling us it's because of western airstrikes this is happening.

Learn the region. I suggest a read on the formation of Saudi Arabia and its history, with a book on the Iranian Revolution of 1979 if you want to begin to understand where this comes from and the forces we [non-muslims and muslims] are dealing with here.

Recommend Robert Lacey's superb book 'Inside the Kingdom' for background on Saudi Arabia and Con Coughlin's book 'Khomeini's Ghost' on the events in Iran from the 1950s to the overthrow of the Shah my the mullahs in 79. Key to it all.

[Landon]

how is bombing isis in the middle east etc going to prevent attacks in western countries where the attackers were born and bred :o

It will destroy the source of ISIS/radicalization. Without a powerhouse it'll come crashing down.


Uh, the west have been in the middle east long before Islamic terrorism in the west. That last sentence is quite funny though, "the power that we can bring". You mean taking 10 years to find one man who was in his house? Or being involved in a region for about 13 years, making no difference whatsoever?

Are you saying that we shouldn't have found and killed him and instead forgave his actions for bringing down the twin towers, sitting around a plethora of candles, crying, and hugging?

That end of that monster's life was warranted. And I'm glad we found him and "dealt with him accordingly" :P

[lemons]

It will destroy the source of ISIS/radicalization. Without a powerhouse it'll come crashing down.



but will it? these attackers are among us already - they don't need to go to and from the middle east for a weekly briefing

i'm not 100% against bombing but only if it's credible and worth it

not when it has the potential to kill innocent civilians

867767165990035461

[dbgtz]

Exactly, you haven't researched it but here you are telling us it's because of western airstrikes this is happening.

Learn the region. I suggest a read on the formation of Saudi Arabia and its history, with a book on the Iranian Revolution of 1979 if you want to begin to understand where this comes from and the forces we [non-muslims and muslims] are dealing with here.

Recommend Robert Lacey's superb book 'Inside the Kingdom' for background on Saudi Arabia and Con Coughlin's book 'Khomeini's Ghost' on the events in Iran from the 1950s to the overthrow of the Shah my the mullahs in 79. Key to it all.

Twisting my words there slightly. I don't know when it comes to the Philippines because I just don't know enough about them.
I'm not even suggesting that instability in the area has anything to do with western military intervention, I'm simply suggesting attacks on western soil is down to western military intervention which is a legitimate thought when they themselves say so.


Are you saying that we shouldn't have found and killed him and instead forgave his actions for bringing down the twin towers, sitting around a plethora of candles, crying, and hugging?

That end of that monster's life was warranted. And I'm glad we found him and "dealt with him accordingly" :P

Nice straw man there, completely ignoring the main point. All I was implying is that "we" are not as strong and mighty as you think "we" are.

[FlyingJesus]

Enlighten us as to why he and countless other muslims then who are followers of a certain strain of Islam have decided to commit such terrible acts? Tell me the reason he and others do this. They can't possibly all have mean and uncaring families, can they?

When did I ever claim such a thing? People can be violent and hateful without experiencing traumas. It's not a case of sensible and peaceful people deciding to join a death cult and THEN becoming like that, you clearly have to already be an angry and aggressive person to be a part of it. You're looking at things the wrong way around

[Landon]

i'm not 100% against bombing but only if it's credible and worth it

Please define "credible" and "worth it" in this case.

[lemons]

Please define "credible" and "worth it" in this case.

actually prevents terrorism not only there but in western countries...... and isn't killing countless innocent people

what's your opinion on the tweet that you ignored in my original post? :)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-40051640

[Landon]

actually prevents terrorism not only there but in western countries...... and isn't killing countless innocent people

what's your opinion on the tweet that you ignored in my original post? :)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-40051640

I think its horrible :)

[lemons]

I think its horrible :)

you're right it is horrible! and not the first time such attrocities have occured due to senseless air strikes

[Landon]

you're right it is horrible! and not the first time such attrocities have occured due to senseless air strikes

I agree, but perhaps senseless wasn't the right word you were looking for as it means without meaning or purpose. They had a purpose in these strikes, it just wasn't executed correctly.

[peteyt]

How about instead of tears, candles and cards we start responding with missiles, military action, anti-extremism and deportations?

I certainly agree something needs to happen but let's not forget Syria. The same people who called for air strikes where the same people then saying we needed to take in the refugees because we destroyed their homes and so on. It's a vicious circle as these refugees may not agree with what we did and be susceptible to radicalisation.

[Landon]

Members of the British military wrote "Love from Manchester" on a missile targeting ISIS members. Hell yeah!

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/05/26/british-military-writes-love-from-manchester-on-isis-bound-missile.html

[FlyingJesus]

Does that give it an attack bonus vs Saracens

[scottish]

I'd rather bomb the hell out of ISIS, make a mark, and teach them a lesson than sit around and cry and change your twitter profile picture. If you'd do the latter than go for it.

Pretty easy to sit behind a keyboard and complain. Wish I could be involved in making the decisions because I'd deal with it plenty different than making sure a nation grieves instead of doing jackshit.

you can't bomb ISIS if they're worldwide and we probably don't know where 99% of their members are?

This isn't a country we're fighting against, we can't just look at their country and plot a strike against their strategic buildings/military bases.

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Quote me, where did I ever say we need to bomb ISIS in Syria? I believe we need to bomb areas of the middle east as a whole.



They're bombing us so let's not bomb them? How's that working out? I don't see many real bombings going on - if any. That's why I want to start. They'd look amateur compared to the power that we can bring.



I can't! But the method I'm fighting for works better than crying, hugging each other, lighting candles, changing your profile pic, letting in more potential terrorists, etc. :)

No it doesn't, it makes absolutely no difference the same as your latter points.

The only difference here is the latter are points that people can do and you can't just get rid of ISIS through bombing.

[Landon]

you can't bomb ISIS if they're worldwide and we probably don't know where 99% of their members are?

This isn't a country we're fighting against, we can't just look at their country and plot a strike against their strategic buildings/military bases.

Yes we can. We just don't bomb them in the states. We bomb them in the middle east.


No it doesn't, it makes absolutely no difference the same as your latter points.

The only difference here is the latter are points that people can do and you can't just get rid of ISIS through bombing.

You can make a dent. It's better than sitting around and doing nothing.

[scottish]

Yes we can. We just don't bomb them in the states. We bomb them in the middle east.

You can make a dent. It's better than sitting around and doing nothing.

No you can't, you can't attack their every single 'cell', if you kill the main group then another will be ready to take their place.

You can't really make a dent at all, take out a group of 30 of them and they'll get another 30. More you bomb them the more propaganda they have against the west for killing their civilians as there's ultimately always civilian causalities.

I'm very pro-bombing, and in situations where it would have an impact then I think it's useful, but I fail to see any way in which bombing on ISIS will make a difference. I don't see it as similar to other groups where you can take out their leadership to have a huge impact on operations.

[lemons]

One Love Manchester concert was absolutely amazing!