Tory Leadership

[-:Undertaker:-]

Tory Leadership

Yesterday, Theresa May resigned as Tory Leader officially triggering the leadership race


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/politics/2019/05/30/198493184_AFP_Conservative-Party-Leader-Candidates_trans_NvBQzQNjv4Bq-b8lvYeT7ebSRCv1_WuiyQO1mQpSN8KvzVuttGSV_3s.jpg?imw idth=450




In the poll I have only included those candidates who have so far got the backing of over 6 MPs which is the number needed to get on the ballot. At the moment, Boris Johnson is leading with the number of MPs backing him openly at around 50, with Gove and Hunt at around 35 each.

The final two will go to a ballot of Conservative Party members. That is, if candidates don't decide to drop out. There's been rumours that the polling for Boris is so good amongst the membership, that some frontrunners will simply concede before it even goes to the party members.

It's possible that there could be a new PM by the end of the month if it concludes early. If not, we expect by the 23rd July.


So who do you want as the next Tory Leader and Prime Minister?

[dbgtz]

theyre all shit

well at least like 8 of them are

[FlyingJesus]

I'd personally prefer Leadsom to take it but pretty sure that won't happen. I am a fan of Boris myself buttttttt he's just so divisive (not among the party necessarily but as a figure) that I don't know he'd be able to pull off the necessary work - he's very easy to caricature and to pass off as a bumbling buffoon by his opponents. That said, with Hunt and Gove as the other frontrunners I do hope it ends up being Johnson as those two are hideous creatures from the depths. Gove is like a MORE creepy version of Michael Howard, and Hunt definitely deserves the rhyming slang.

[-:Undertaker:-]

@FlyingJesus (https://www.habboxforum.com/member.php?u=24753);

Totally agree with you on Gove and Hunt. Gove I don't trust an inch especially with those who are backing him, and Hunt has changed his position on No Deal about 4 times. I am favourable towards (those running): Boris Johnson, Dominic Raab, Esther McVey, Andrea Leadsom.

Tonight the ERG's Steve Baker MP declared for Boris, and I was waiting to see what he did as I trust him a lot especially given he absolutely refused to vote for May's surrender deal. He's also had Priti Patel MP and Gavin Williamson MP declare tonight.

I think a lot of them now understand: take us out by the 31st October or it's curtains. We're in the last chance saloon.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D8kka9SWkAErN0l.jpg

[dbgtz]

boris johnson flops more than a fish on land and also got a journalist assaulted (or at least tried to)
raab negotiated a deal then resigned because he didnt like the deal he negotiated and also has to use a cookbook to make toast
nothing to say for esther mccvey, but a quick google search looks like she lied about a report regarding universal credit
leadsom argued about trade deals to pascal lamy whose whole job is/was trade deal and somehow thinks pooping a kid out wouldve made her do a better job than good ol TM

lets not forget all these usage of drugs coming to light
not that i have an issue with the usage, more the hypocrisy

theyre all pretty bloody awful

- - - Updated - - -

boris johnson flops more than a fish on land and also got a journalist assaulted (or at least tried to)
raab negotiated a deal then resigned because he didnt like the deal he negotiated and also has to use a cookbook to make toast
nothing to say for esther mccvey, but a quick google search looks like she lied about a report regarding universal credit
leadsom argued about trade deals to pascal lamy whose whole job is/was trade deal and somehow thinks pooping a kid out wouldve made her do a better job than good ol TM

lets not forget all these usage of drugs coming to light
not that i have an issue with the usage, more the hypocrisy

theyre all pretty bloody awful

[FlyingJesus]

As much as I still can't stand him I think that Gove's played a blinder politically with the drug confession, it means no-one can hold it as a card against him later on and the simpletons in their crack houses have taken it to mean he's one of their own (because obviously everyone who's ever used drugs is part of the same tight knit community for life................) and then pretty much everyone else has just said "yeah so what", very shrewd move on his part. As I say, still think he's a fuckwit vampire

[-:Undertaker:-]

raab negotiated a deal then resigned because he didnt like the deal he negotiated

Raab didn't negotiate it though. Neither did David Davis. If you remember, she called the Cabinet to Chequers and ambushed them with her plan which had been negotiated by Civil Servant Olly Robbens operating on behalf of Number 10. Raab, Davis and Boris all did the principled thing and resigned.

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EU starting to go crackers over this. Good. Don't pay them a penny.

It's like how Trump just got Mexico to start patrolling the border. Threatened them with raising tariffs - a week later they caved in.

[sexpot]

sajid because his head looks like an egg and eggs are yummy

[Zak]

No love for Sam Gyimah?

[FlyingJesus]

No love for Sam Gyimah?

Pulled out not long after you posted this :P but no anyway, he wants another referendum

[dbgtz]

As much as I still can't stand him I think that Gove's played a blinder politically with the drug confession, it means no-one can hold it as a card against him later on and the simpletons in their crack houses have taken it to mean he's one of their own (because obviously everyone who's ever used drugs is part of the same tight knit community for life................) and then pretty much everyone else has just said "yeah so what", very shrewd move on his part. As I say, still think he's a fuckwit vampire

not so much questioning the strategy, just the hypocrisy of it all


Raab didn't negotiate it though. Neither did David Davis. If you remember, she called the Cabinet to Chequers and ambushed them with her plan which had been negotiated by Civil Servant Olly Robbens operating on behalf of Number 10. Raab, Davis and Boris all did the principled thing and resigned.

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EU starting to go crackers over this. Good. Don't pay them a penny.

It's like how Trump just got Mexico to start patrolling the border. Threatened them with raising tariffs - a week later they caved in.

I'll somewhat accept the Raab argument as he inherited it from Davis, but he was out of his depth (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46142188) and lazy (https://twitter.com/oxforddiplomat/status/1090918652101226496?lang=en)

But you really think Davis was just sidelined lmao
the dude was accused of being lazy on multiple occassions on both sides, turns up without notes, believes we would be heading to berlin to strike a deal (ignorance of how the eu works no matter how you look at it), and completely lied about the impact assessments

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They both resigned after the announcement too, never during which you would surely expect if it was being hijacked as you suggested?

these people were given the perfect opportunity to actually put their words into actions but failed

[-:Undertaker:-]

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IDS backed Boris earlier today. Rudd backed Hunt.


No love for Sam Gyimah?

I think had Sam Gyimah made it onto the ballot and somehow by magic won, then he should have offered himself up for a second vote seeing as he demands it for the rest of the country to vote over and over again until we give the "right" answer. Can't stand him just for that alone.


I'll somewhat accept the Raab argument as he inherited it from Davis, but he was out of his depth (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46142188) and lazy (https://twitter.com/oxforddiplomat/status/1090918652101226496?lang=en)

But you really think Davis was just sidelined lmao
the dude was accused of being lazy on multiple occassions on both sides, turns up without notes, believes we would be heading to berlin to strike a deal (ignorance of how the eu works no matter how you look at it), and completely lied about the impact assessments

You do realise the briefings against Davis, Raab and Johnson all come from inside the May Ministry? Ask yourself why they may hope to discredit those ministers, when those ministers were unhappy with government policy and eventually resigned over it. It wasn't a case of lazy ministers, it was a case of Number 10 and the Civil Service actively undermining the governments own ministers to cook up this surrender document.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DfA8A1r_Rg


They both resigned after the announcement too, never during which you would surely expect if it was being hijacked as you suggested?

these people were given the perfect opportunity to actually put their words into actions but failed

They resigned just after Chequers, yes. From memory it was over that weekend, after lawyers had looked at parts of the text and it could be examined. Sounds pretty sensible to me, and principled that they did quit - unlike Gove, Fox, Leadom and Mordaunt who could've brought this awful PM down earlier had they joined Boris and Davis. Raab then stepped in for a very short tenure, and found the Brexit Secretary was basically teaboy for Number 10's Civil Servant Olly Robbens, and promptly resigned.

The reason why Boris or Raab will likely win against Gove or Hunt is precisely because they resigned. Their principles will be rewarded.

[FlyingJesus]

I like to think I'm not entirely disconnected when it comes to this stuff but can anyone explain to me why Gove and Hunt are in any way popular with anyone? I've never met anyone who actually likes or trusts either of them

[-:Undertaker:-]

I like to think I'm not entirely disconnected when it comes to this stuff but can anyone explain to me why Gove and Hunt are in any way popular with anyone? I've never met anyone who actually likes or trusts either of them

They're popular with some of the MPs, we'll see just how popular they are with the membership against Boris or Raab.

[FlyingJesus]

It's like Eurovision all over again, the wrong people getting the "professional" go ahead

[-:Undertaker:-]

MP support totals at this stage -

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And an interesting ComRes poll out last night.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D8zym_bWwAAnShU.jpg

[dbgtz]

You do realise the briefings against Davis, Raab and Johnson all come from inside the May Ministry? Ask yourself why they may hope to discredit those ministers, when those ministers were unhappy with government policy and eventually resigned over it. It wasn't a case of lazy ministers, it was a case of Number 10 and the Civil Service actively undermining the governments own ministers to cook up this surrender document.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DfA8A1r_Rg


any source not from the guy who's not just going to admit hes lazy and/or a liar (speaking of which i'd love to see your logic on why he said there were plenty of impact assessments then admits there were none)

looking at some other sources, it was a collective government decision
now you can say that he was forced into it or whatever, which basically just shows he has little a spine so how would he negotiate with the eu to begin with?

let's not forget he's a proven liar I would like to emphasise that part
and not the promise to do something but doesnt lie, but says something that is simply untrue


They resigned just after Chequers, yes. From memory it was over that weekend, after lawyers had looked at parts of the text and it could be examined. Sounds pretty sensible to me, and principled that they did quit - unlike Gove, Fox, Leadom and Mordaunt who could've brought this awful PM down earlier had they joined Boris and Davis. Raab then stepped in for a very short tenure, and found the Brexit Secretary was basically teaboy for Number 10's Civil Servant Olly Robbens, and promptly resigned.

The reason why Boris or Raab will likely win against Gove or Hunt is precisely because they resigned. Their principles will be rewarded.

why does it sound sensible to you the law makers cant read legislation they should have been aware of

alexander has no principles, dont just use the real names for people you dont like

[dbgtz]

also if he does have principles i do hope he tries for a new GE (if he becomes pm) considering the roasting he gave gordon brown

[-:Undertaker:-]

Great news tonight, unconstitutional plot to bend the constitutional rules failed tonight.

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And current declared numbers for Tory leadership. First round is tomorrow just after midday.

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any source not from the guy who's not just going to admit hes lazy and/or a liar (speaking of which i'd love to see your logic on why he said there were plenty of impact assessments then admits there were none)

looking at some other sources, it was a collective government decision
now you can say that he was forced into it or whatever, which basically just shows he has little a spine so how would he negotiate with the eu to begin with?

let's not forget he's a proven liar I would like to emphasise that part
and not the promise to do something but doesnt lie, but says something that is simply untrue

It was a collective decision after it was presented to the Cabinet at Chequers, you had to either agree to the Cabinet line on it or resign from position which is exactly what Davis and Boris both did. He wasn't "forced" into it - he point blank was presented with this agreement that the Civil Service and Number 10 had been working on, and was told that was the agreed position.


why does it sound sensible to you the law makers cant read legislation they should have been aware of

alexander has no principles, dont just use the real names for people you dont like

Eh? It was presented at Chequers and that is literally when the Cabinet first laid eyes on the agreement.

[-:Undertaker:-]

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And a Tory member poll.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D87a6bPX4AAmRL5.png

[FlyingJesus]

Stewart is coming across almost as slimy as Gove the more I hear from him. Voted against investigating the Iraq war, staunchly against no deal to the point that he'd stop the entire thing to avoid it (and yet voted against giving EU nationals already here any rights, literally worst of both worlds), and WORST OF ALL he looks weird

[-:Undertaker:-]

@FlyingJesus (https://www.habboxforum.com/member.php?u=24753);

I refer to him as Wormtongue as he embarrassingly arsekissed Theresa May on television for months, and then secured himself a Cabinet job after she ran out of people to put into the Cabinet. I would actually like him to make the final two, so we could see what the party membership think of him.

[dbgtz]

It was a collective decision after it was presented to the Cabinet at Chequers, you had to either agree to the Cabinet line on it or resign from position which is exactly what Davis and Boris both did. He wasn't "forced" into it - he point blank was presented with this agreement that the Civil Service and Number 10 had been working on, and was told that was the agreed position.

Eh? It was presented at Chequers and that is literally when the Cabinet first laid eyes on the agreement.

suppose I accept that all as fact
what was he doing for a year and why did he lie about impact assessments?
more signs point to him just being lazy and incompetent

[-:Undertaker:-]

Matt Hancock just withdrew from the race.

And here's the latest YouGov, just fresh out of the oven. Look at the dire sitution the Tories find themselves in.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D9A6EQUXoAEtyXP.jpg


suppose I accept that all as fact
what was he doing for a year and why did he lie about impact assessments?
more signs point to him just being lazy and incompetent

Apparently they were working on an FTA with technology being used on the border, but the EU was holding out that the FTA only apply to Great Britain and not Northern Ireland. At that point, as Davis says himself, Britain should have left the negotiating table and prepared for No Deal.

Had I been sat at that table, I would have demanded in a counter offer that the Republic of Ireland join our Customs Union + Single Market.

[dbgtz]

Apparently they were working on an FTA with technology being used on the border, but the EU was holding out that the FTA only apply to Great Britain and not Northern Ireland. At that point, as Davis says himself, Britain should have left the negotiating table and prepared for No Deal.

Had I been sat at that table, I would have demanded in a counter offer that the Republic of Ireland join our Customs Union + Single Market.

where's your source on this?
also what is this technology that keeps being mentioned that will solve all these problems?

i just want to take this moment when mentioning technology to mention how poorly formatted a brexit party letter was and somehow these people are saying technology will solve the issue

speaking of brexit party whats your view on farage going apeshit at jo brand

[-:Undertaker:-]

where's your source on this?

Interviews I have seen, reports I have read.


also what is this technology that keeps being mentioned that will solve all these problems?

i just want to take this moment when mentioning technology to mention how poorly formatted a brexit party letter was and somehow these people are saying technology will solve the issue

Customs posts at the border, or checking customs when it arrives at the destination... that sort of thing. If I am perfectly honest, I would just like to see a manned border reinstated anyway. There already exists a border (monetary, measurement, legal, political) and so there should, the Republic of Ireland wanted independence in 1922 so it should be treated as any other foreign state on our doorstep, like France is.


speaking of brexit party whats your view on farage going apeshit at jo brand

I think comedians/anyone in general should be able to say whatever they want, however Jo Brand a few years ago got Carol Thatcher sacked from the BBC for saying the word gollywog so I am delighted to see that Jo Brand may now also lose her career. What goes around comes around.

[dbgtz]

Interviews I have seen, reports I have read.

ok, can you name one? not even trying to be difficult but i cant find anything


Customs posts at the border, or checking customs when it arrives at the destination... that sort of thing. If I am perfectly honest, I would just like to see a manned border reinstated anyway. There already exists a border (monetary, measurement, legal, political) and so there should, the Republic of Ireland wanted independence in 1922 so it should be treated as any other foreign state on our doorstep, like France is.

your technology based solution to not put up a border is to put up a border?


I think comedians/anyone in general should be able to say whatever they want, however Jo Brand a few years ago got Carol Thatcher sacked from the BBC for saying the word gollywog so I am delighted to see that Jo Brand may now also lose her career. What goes around comes around.

so you disagree with farage calling for police action
perhaps you would even agree hes a bit of a hypocrite in this situation

[-:Undertaker:-]

ok, can you name one? not even trying to be difficult but i cant find anything

I can't find the more in-depth stuff I read at time, but found these.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/chequers-mate-may-ambush-routs-cabinet-brexiteers-7n8gmnvkb

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/986454/brexit-news-machine-gun-ambush-david-davis-boris-johnson-chequers-meeting


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhRnKj9osIo


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2FwJxwuSLM



your technology based solution to not put up a border is to put up a border?

Brexiteers are talking about technological solutions, but I am saying that I personally do not care and would like to see a full border implemented anyway like we have with the French Republic. The Irish Republic is a different country - I see no reason to spend hundreds of millions trying to find complicated ways around what most other countries do, which is build a manned border post with a customs checks car park at the side. Brexit aside, for a while now I have disagreed with the special treatment given to the Republic.


so you disagree with farage calling for police action
perhaps you would even agree hes a bit of a hypocrite in this situation

I don't recall Farage making jokes about acid throwing at other politicians, so don't see the hypocrisy.

[Mrs.McCall]

I just still struggle to believe it's going to be Boris. Or maybe that's just blind optimism. Surely the current strategy of keeping him away from the press can't continue?

The BBC debate should be interesting if he turns up as agreed.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Nothing in Sunday papers in terms of scandals to sink Boris, looks like he's heading for Number 10.


And tonight's poll.

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[Mrs.McCall]

It's disgraceful that Boris isn't attend C4 debate tonight. He's waiting for the next round of voting where he'll end up going to last 2 automatically. They keep saying they don't want a coronation like May but it's essentially what it is. Shocking.

As for that poll, I cannot fathom how the opposition party, in the midst of all this, can be polling the same as the Government and they're not looking at their own leader.

Surely the weakest opposition in modern British history?

[FlyingJesus]

Smart move for him tbh, he's got nothing to gain from doing tonight's debate and who among us Habbos can trust C4 anyway :'(:'(:'(:'( but yeah makes no sense for him to open himself up to a bunch of no-chancers who just want to yell "BUS" at him for Facebook likes, better to have a more structured and hopefully calmer debate with fewer people shouting across each other and whittled down to those who actually might be in charge

Definitely a crippled opposition though agree 100% on that, even my strongest fauxialist friends (the type who used to do the OHHH JEREMY CORBYN chant over smashed avocado toast and make everyone cringe) want Corbyn gone now because he's just the same posturing type as one of the lower-rung nominees of the Conservatives. When the government is this weak it takes something really shit to be an even worse opposition

[-:Undertaker:-]

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BORIS Johnson has been warned he must deliver Brexit within 100 days or risk MPs deserting him.

Tories backing his leadership bid have bluntly told him they will quit if he fails to meet the Halloween deadline for leaving the EU.

A former minister said: “We’ve all invested heavily in backing Boris. But he has got to keep his word. If he lets us down, it’s over.”

The warning shot from hardline Brexiteers came as an exclusive Sun on Sunday poll put BoJo in an almost unassailable lead in the race for Number 10.

Some of the 120 MPs endorsing him last night made it clear his reign will be a short one if Britain stays in the EU beyond October 31. That gives him barely 100 days to strike a departure deal with EU chiefs after he takes office at the end of July.

The PM-in-waiting has been warned that patience is wearing thin among members of the European Research Group of Tory MPs. Several have even suggested they would defect to Nigel Farage’s Brexit Party.

One senior figure warned it could spell the end not only for Mr Johnson’s government but for the Conservatives. He said: “We’ve told him straight. If we don’t leave on schedule this time around, all bets are off.

“The donors will turn off the money taps, the members will be gone and MPs will walk too. We’ll be left with no choice but to join the Brexit Party. The country has put up with this for long enough. It’s three years since we voted to leave the EU and the big day keeps being put off.

“We’ve had so many broken promises from Theresa May and we are not going to be let down by Boris Johnson. We’ve told him in no uncertain terms, and I think he gets it.”

[Mrs.McCall]

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Interesting how they want to give him 100 days to get a deal yet a lot of hardcore Brexiteers advocate for a no deal Brexit.

[FlyingJesus]

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Bit of a non-story tbh, pretty obvious that if he doesn't do the one thing he's said he will do then he's not gonna last

[-:Undertaker:-]

Raab out. Other ballots take place tomorrow and day after to narrow it down to final two.

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[-:Undertaker:-]

Rory Stewart out last night.

Final two ballots today. One taking place between 10am and 12pm and the last one tonight at around 6pm.

The final two then go to the membership ballot of 150,000 ish (which includes me) Tory members over the next month.

If one drops out, we'll have a new PM in days.

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[-:Undertaker:-]

The next PM will be either Boris Johnson or Jeremy Hunt.

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[FlyingJesus]

Could potentially get interesting if all of the MPs not currently supporting Johnson throw their votes to Hunt, but can't see that happening or I'm sure Gove and Hunt would have already made a joint bid - realistically it would have been the only way to not get BoJo in charge from the very start of all this and if I've worked that out I'm sure they have too

[-:Undertaker:-]

FlyingJesus;

The MPs vote stage has ended now. The membership decide the final winner out of these two.

[-:Undertaker:-]

YouGov.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D9lBvDcWkAArLkI.jpg

[dbgtz]

I can't find the more in-depth stuff I read at time, but found these.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/chequers-mate-may-ambush-routs-cabinet-brexiteers-7n8gmnvkb

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/986454/brexit-news-machine-gun-ambush-david-davis-boris-johnson-chequers-meeting


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhRnKj9osIo


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2FwJxwuSLM



i may be mistaken but i dont see any mention of a fta in any of that


Brexiteers are talking about technological solutions, but I am saying that I personally do not care and would like to see a full border implemented anyway like we have with the French Republic. The Irish Republic is a different country - I see no reason to spend hundreds of millions trying to find complicated ways around what most other countries do, which is build a manned border post with a customs checks car park at the side. Brexit aside, for a while now I have disagreed with the special treatment given to the Republic.

but i thought we dont have a full border with the french/schengen and that part of the reason to leave so we could have this border
really does show your lack of shit giving for anyone in NI though


I don't recall Farage making jokes about acid throwing at other politicians, so don't see the hypocrisy.

no but he has implied shooting politicians (or at least threatening them with violence)

pretty sure hes always said police shouldnt investigate jokes, free speech etc.
here is him complaining over what is a completely inoffensive joke: https://www.itv.com/news/2015-04-29/ukip-asks-police-to-investigate-the-bbc-over-have-i-got-news-for-you/

[-:Undertaker:-]

Reassuring stuff from the Boris camp today/tonight.

No more caving in and humiliating this great country any longer.

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i may be mistaken but i dont see any mention of a fta in any of that

A lot of eurosceptics continue to go on about an FTA with the EU, but this isn't on the table at the moment as the EU will only accept an FTA applying to Great Britain and not Northern Ireland because of the (imagined) border issues. Of course, an FTA is possible as the EU does with many other countries - but in this instance the EU is demanding that we carve away part of our kingdom and place it under EU law/customs. The EU in time will likely bend on this, but hasn't whilst our cowardly politicians refuse to Leave without a Deal.


but i thought we dont have a full border with the french/schengen and that part of the reason to leave so we could have this border
really does show your lack of shit giving for anyone in NI though

Actually, my concern for Northern Ireland is my primary reason for refusing to support the Withdrawal Agreement even though had it gone through, my long-term aim of seeing this country leave the EU would have happened back in March of this year. The reason is, that I will not see Ulster thrown under the bus and annexed to the European Union in order to get a deal through. The people of Ulster should be ruled through the Crown, like the rest of us, and not by the European Commission and ECJ.

Britain leaves and regains independence as one sovereign country. That's non-negotiable to me and certainly the DUP.

My nationality after all is British, not English.

[dbgtz]

Reassuring stuff from the Boris camp today/tonight.

No more caving in and humiliating this great country any longer.

1143536757360738304

1143461261507780609

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remember when you wrongly accused C4 of spreading fake news yet now you support the man who was literally fired for spreading fake news


A lot of eurosceptics continue to go on about an FTA with the EU, but this isn't on the table at the moment as the EU will only accept an FTA applying to Great Britain and not Northern Ireland because of the (imagined) border issues. Of course, an FTA is possible as the EU does with many other countries - but in this instance the EU is demanding that we carve away part of our kingdom and place it under EU law/customs. The EU in time will likely bend on this, but hasn't whilst our cowardly politicians refuse to Leave without a Deal.

so when do you expect the easiest trade deal in history to be on the table


Actually, my concern for Northern Ireland is my primary reason for refusing to support the Withdrawal Agreement even though had it gone through, my long-term aim of seeing this country leave the EU would have happened back in March of this year. The reason is, that I will not see Ulster thrown under the bus and annexed to the European Union in order to get a deal through. The people of Ulster should be ruled through the Crown, like the rest of us, and not by the European Commission and ECJ.

Britain leaves and regains independence as one sovereign country. That's non-negotiable to me and certainly the DUP.

My nationality after all is British, not English.

NI voted to remain though so more doing them a favour than throwing them under a bus
you simply dont give a shit for the people who will actually have to put up with these issues

[-:Undertaker:-]

remember when you wrongly accused C4 of spreading fake news yet now you support the man who was literally fired for spreading fake news

I couldn't care less who the PM is so long as they honour what we voted for and get us out.


so when do you expect the easiest trade deal in history to be on the table

When the EU stops demanding vassalage in return for it.


NI voted to remain though so more doing them a favour than throwing them under a bus
you simply dont give a shit for the people who will actually have to put up with these issues

The United Kingdom isn't a confederation, it is a unitary single sovereign state. We're not talking about the Holy Roman Empire here. You seemingly don't give a shit about Northern Ireland given you appear to be advocating it follows EU law forever without a say, and is broken away from British law when the majority in Northern Ireland want to stay British. Our country comes first here, not the EU/the Republic or the IRA.

What is it in you that loves the EU so much that makes you want to hand over a quarter of your own country to them?

[dbgtz]

I couldn't care less who the PM is so long as they honour what we voted for and get us out.

ignoring the part where he consistently lies so god knows if he even will
when is it you plan on coming back to the uk anyway


When the EU stops demanding vassalage in return for it.

but we were told there would be a deal http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_newdeal.html


The United Kingdom isn't a confederation, it is a unitary single sovereign state. We're not talking about the Holy Roman Empire here. You seemingly don't give a shit about Northern Ireland given you appear to be advocating it follows EU law forever without a say, and is broken away from British law when the majority in Northern Ireland want to stay British. Our country comes first here, not the EU/the Republic or the IRA.

What is it in you that loves the EU so much that makes you want to hand over a quarter of your own country to them?

when did I say NI shouldn't have a say

you seem to be attempting to play some nationalist emotive card as if it would bother me
what bothers me more you're willing to put people who aren't even in the same country as you right now at risk because you feel uncomfortable with the EU even though it basically makes no noticable impact on your life, aside from the FoM you are using of course
what bothers me is you support a proven liar (which you don't even accept your own hypocrisy on) because no deal blah even though (a) nobody actually campaigned for a no deal and (b) is universally accepted to cause damage to some degree, all because you feel uncomfortable
and your discomfort is completely irrational - you try formulating a fact-based argument on why leaving the EU is a great idea but it always descends into being about sovereignty or some bollocks because your claims are often proven to be false

fundamentally you seem to care more for how the country looks on a map than anyone actually in it

[FlyingJesus]

While I often vehemently disagree with Dan I think it's pretty daft to sweep aside all the financial aspects that are a major sticking point for people who actually read into it as "sovereignty or some bollocks". It's a fact that we pay an obscene amount into a system that then gives us a little bit back but tells us where it can be spent, and keeps the rest for paying off debts that other countries have accrued. In that one instance the money is the main point but sovereignty (or some bollocks) is very much an important part of it as well, so not really something to just rule out.
Also interested to see where "there should be a proper border between two separately ruled countries" became "ha ha ha we should put people at risk" in your mind

[-:Undertaker:-]

ignoring the part where he consistently lies so god knows if he even will

Who knows if he will indeed, but if he does not then it will mean the end of the Conservative and Unionist Party.


when is it you plan on coming back to the uk anyway

Possibly end of August, back home for a bit saving, then travelling in the summer then (maybe) back to Spain September 2020.


but we were told there would be a deal http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_newdeal.html

And a Deal has been offered by the European Union. We didn't say we should accept any deal. Would you vote for her Deal?


when did I say NI shouldn't have a say

you seem to be attempting to play some nationalist emotive card as if it would bother me

You should be emotive about your country and her people. I am emotive because I care.


what bothers me more you're willing to put people who aren't even in the same country as you right now at risk because you feel uncomfortable with the EU even though it basically makes no noticable impact on your life, aside from the FoM you are using of course

At risk of what? More absurd and frankly laughable forecasts like we got from George Osborne's Treasury in 2016?


what bothers me is you support a proven liar (which you don't even accept your own hypocrisy on) because no deal blah even though (a) nobody actually campaigned for a no deal and (b) is universally accepted to cause damage to some degree, all because you feel uncomfortable
and your discomfort is completely irrational - you try formulating a fact-based argument on why leaving the EU is a great idea but it always descends into being about sovereignty or some bollocks because your claims are often proven to be false

I don't understand why you cannot understand, even if you may disagree, that sovereignty matters to a lot of people as a principle or fundamental value for a nation. It mattered to the Hungarians in 1919, the Indians in 1947, the Croats in 1991 and it mattered to the South Sudanese in 2011. It matters to a majority of people in this country, that they live under a political system that they feel is legitimate.

It boils down to identity - I am British, not European. My loyalty to and my country is Britain, not Europe.


fundamentally you seem to care more for how the country looks on a map than anyone actually in it

Actually, it is because I view all parts of my country as equal. Northern Ireland is just as important as England, and Cardiff is just as part of the country as Edinburgh, London or Liverpool. I don't rank parts of the country as pieces of rotting meat I can throw to the EU for a shitty deal.

[dbgtz]

Possibly end of August, back home for a bit saving, then travelling in the summer then (maybe) back to Spain September 2020.

Well at least you should be here for a bit of this shit then


And a Deal has been offered by the European Union. We didn't say we should accept any deal. Would you vote for her Deal?

It explicitely states "There is a European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border and we will be part of it."


You should be emotive about your country and her people. I am emotive because I care.

why should I?
what good does nationalism bring?


At risk of what? More absurd and frankly laughable forecasts like we got from George Osborne's Treasury in 2016?

no, I'm obviously referring to NI and the border

just so you know there's plenty of brexiteers pointing out economic fallout from this now


I don't understand why you cannot understand, even if you may disagree, that sovereignty matters to a lot of people as a principle or fundamental value for a nation. It mattered to the Hungarians in 1919, the Indians in 1947, the Croats in 1991 and it mattered to the South Sudanese in 2011. It matters to a majority of people in this country, that they live under a political system that they feel is legitimate.

It boils down to identity - I am British, not European. My loyalty to and my country is Britain, not Europe.

seems like you ignored everything but the bit at the end about how you turn to the idea of sovereignty
the strong difference i believe to the countries you listed out and the eu is that, regardless if you agree entirely how its done, we (as a country) do have influence during every stage of the process


Actually, it is because I view all parts of my country as equal. Northern Ireland is just as important as England, and Cardiff is just as part of the country as Edinburgh, London or Liverpool. I don't rank parts of the country as pieces of rotting meat I can throw to the EU for a shitty deal.

if you view England, NI, Wales and Scotland to be equally important then it was 2-2 to remain/leave
you also seemed to ignore the part where I basically said it should be up to NI

but really you sort of proved my point as you don't speak of the people in those places

[-:Undertaker:-]

Well at least you should be here for a bit of this shit then

Celebrating, yes.

A reminder I was in Britain for the "chaos" of 23rd June 2016 that was predicted. The only chaos we experienced was the sound of dinner plates and wine glasses shattering in middle class north London homes at the shock of the great unwashed having their say.


It explicitely states "There is a European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border and we will be part of it."

Indeed, and they're welcome to agree a FTA with us allowing relatively free trade when they drop their demands for 1/4 of our country.


why should I?
what good does nationalism bring?

Can you point to one place in the world where nationalism does not exist?

All the places that tried to suppress existing nationalism actually ended up creating frankenstein 'false' states by creating new identities and wiping away the older identities - which is ironically an aggressive form of nationalism itself. The Soviet Union. Yugoslavia. Ottoman Emprie. Republic of India. The Sudan. Libya. Iraq. And now the European Union with its anthem, flag, military and "ever closer union".

What good will creating a new nation spread across 28 vastly complex/different countries bring?


no, I'm obviously referring to NI and the border

What are you claiming is going to happen if a normal border between two different countries is implemented?


seems like you ignored everything but the bit at the end about how you turn to the idea of sovereignty
the strong difference i believe to the countries you listed out and the eu is that, regardless if you agree entirely how its done, we (as a country) do have influence during every stage of the process

Having influence, 1 of 28, isn't good enough.

Australia, Canada, New Zealand and America do not feel the need to have "influence" in the European Union. They just do things themselves where they have 100% influence over their own laws and politics. That's national sovereignty working in action.

Why would I settle for the influence of 3.5% over my own laws/politics when I could have the influence of 100%?


if you view England, NI, Wales and Scotland to be equally important then it was 2-2 to remain/leave

Eh? What kind of thinking is this?

We don't have an electoral college in this country because we're not a confederation, we're a unitary sovereign state. You're applying the constitutional logic of the Holy Roman Empire, United States of America or Dominion of Canada to a completely different constitutional arrangement. That would be like talking about a hypothetical British Presidency at the time of the next Coronation. Like, what?

The question on the ballot was should the United Kingdom leave or remain in the European Union. The people said Leave.


you also seemed to ignore the part where I basically said it should be up to NI

but really you sort of proved my point as you don't speak of the people in those places

What should be up to Northern Ireland?

And it was up to Northern Ireland - correct me if I am wrong, were Britons in Ulster issued ballot papers in the 2016 EU referendum?

[-:Undertaker:-]

Olly Robbins out.

And major respect to Caroline Flint MP. A Labour and Remain MP. This is now about democracy.

Honestly, god bless those MPs who respect the result.

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[-:Undertaker:-]

Latest YouGov out today has Boris on 76% and Hunt on 24% among Tory members.

My ballot came yesterday. Sent off for Boris.

[dbgtz]

While I often vehemently disagree with Dan I think it's pretty daft to sweep aside all the financial aspects that are a major sticking point for people who actually read into it as "sovereignty or some bollocks". It's a fact that we pay an obscene amount into a system that then gives us a little bit back but tells us where it can be spent, and keeps the rest for paying off debts that other countries have accrued. In that one instance the money is the main point but sovereignty (or some bollocks) is very much an important part of it as well, so not really something to just rule out.
Also interested to see where "there should be a proper border between two separately ruled countries" became "ha ha ha we should put people at risk" in your mind

when did I sweep aside the financial aspects? my point to him was that he tries to make these claims which ends up being proved partially or entirely false so he reverts to falling back to the idea of sovereignty being the true reason for this whole thing
its not a fact to call it an obscene amount of money - its actually a tiny part of general taxation spending and according to both Johnson and Hunt there is plenty of money about anyway
its also naive to look at it as losing 9bn (13bn out, 4bn spent in UK off the top of my head) without taking anything else into consideration

recent article as well estimating it will cost individuals 9bn alone in tariffs which will be felt far more if taxes aren't lowered to compensate but equally that means less money for other things (also let's not forget the cost of an increased border/customs force, but at least some infrastructure is there as we don't actually have completely open borders with anyone but Ireland).

also when did i suggest anything like what you said in that last line?


Celebrating, yes.

A reminder I was in Britain for the "chaos" of 23rd June 2016 that was predicted. The only chaos we experienced was the sound of dinner plates and wine glasses shattering in middle class north London homes at the shock of the great unwashed having their say.

there is going to be tangible change when actually leaving


Indeed, and they're welcome to agree a FTA with us allowing relatively free trade when they drop their demands for 1/4 of our country.

but we were told there would be a deal and no deal wasn't on the table


Can you point to one place in the world where nationalism does not exist?

All the places that tried to suppress existing nationalism actually ended up creating frankenstein 'false' states by creating new identities and wiping away the older identities - which is ironically an aggressive form of nationalism itself. The Soviet Union. Yugoslavia. Ottoman Emprie. Republic of India. The Sudan. Libya. Iraq. And now the European Union with its anthem, flag, military and "ever closer union".

What good will creating a new nation spread across 28 vastly complex/different countries bring?

none of that relates to my question of what good comes of it
if anything you pretty much just agreed with me

you understand football teams have anthems and the un has flags and a peacekeeping "military". btw the current eus csdp set up is entirely voluntary and not an actual army and the future pesco was a) constantly blocked by the uk and b) we didnt have to join and could have left as it's entirely voluntary and c) is just a "better" cooperation of existing nation military and isnt pooling them under some eu identity
all pesco seems to really be is relying less on nato/the us after things trump has said


What are you claiming is going to happen if a normal border between two different countries is implemented?

i am not going in circles over this


Having influence, 1 of 28, isn't good enough.

Australia, Canada, New Zealand and America do not feel the need to have "influence" in the European Union. They just do things themselves where they have 100% influence over their own laws and politics. That's national sovereignty working in action.

Why would I settle for the influence of 3.5% over my own laws/politics when I could have the influence of 100%?

you understand if we ever negotiate again with the eu it still is 1 of 28, because we are in a position either side of the table to veto any deal
you will probably talk about how "oh we obviously have to give something because how else do you deal with 28 countries!!" well thats how its going to work either way - look at the poor extradition treaty with have with the US already as an example of how this will shaft us


Eh? What kind of thinking is this?

We don't have an electoral college in this country because we're not a confederation, we're a unitary sovereign state. You're applying the constitutional logic of the Holy Roman Empire, United States of America or Dominion of Canada to a completely different constitutional arrangement. That would be like talking about a hypothetical British Presidency at the time of the next Coronation. Like, what?

The question on the ballot was should the United Kingdom leave or remain in the European Union. The people said Leave.

if you view something as equal, then there is surely an equal say?


What should be up to Northern Ireland?

And it was up to Northern Ireland - correct me if I am wrong, were Britons in Ulster issued ballot papers in the 2016 EU referendum?

ye, they voted to remain

[FlyingJesus]

when did I sweep aside the financial aspects?

When you said that all of his arguments were about sovereignty which is simply not true


its not a fact to call it an obscene amount of money

Genuinely hilarious. Yes there is more money than that in the world but to suggest that it's somehow a negligible amount is just daft. A number that comes to a few percent of what an entire COUNTRY spends is certainly an obscene amount to throw away


also when did i suggest anything like what you said in that last line?

Here:

you're willing to put people who aren't even in the same country as you right now at risk

In response to him talking about putting a manned border in place. I actually TRIED to find some evidence that he was suggesting something dangerous but nope, you just made it up

[dbgtz]

When you said that all of his arguments were about sovereignty which is simply not true

no but there have been many instances where he gets proved wrong, i think a particular one in mind is where he claimed the eu would just waive uk cargo through for 9 months or something which was false then ended up saying how its about sovereignty anyway so it doesnt matter

my point was its more of a failsafe than his only argument for it




Genuinely hilarious. Yes there is more money than that in the world but to suggest that it's somehow a negligible amount is just daft. A number that comes to a few percent of what an entire COUNTRY spends is certainly an obscene amount to throw away


why exactly is it do you think its thrown away



Here:


In response to him talking about putting a manned border in place. I actually TRIED to find some evidence that he was suggesting something dangerous but nope, you just made it up

The danger is the risk of troubles arising from a hard border in northern ireland

[-:Undertaker:-]

there is going to be tangible change when actually leaving

Hopefully, as that was the whole point in leaving.


but we were told there would be a deal and no deal wasn't on the table

Well... there is a deal. And it was rejected 3 times by a Remain-dominated House of Commons so we now leave without a deal.

Are you saying you would have voted for this deal as an MP?


none of that relates to my question of what good comes of it
if anything you pretty much just agreed with me

I agreed with you that nationalism should be replaced by supranationalism? Where?


you understand football teams have anthems and the un has flags and a peacekeeping "military". btw the current eus csdp set up is entirely voluntary and not an actual army and the future pesco was a) constantly blocked by the uk and b) we didnt have to join and could have left as it's entirely voluntary and c) is just a "better" cooperation of existing nation military and isnt pooling them under some eu identity
all pesco seems to really be is relying less on nato/the us after things trump has said

The classic EU salami slice method.

When has the EU *not* seeped into an area we never asked it to?

If I remember correctly, the EU Constitution that was rejected included the flag/anthem/trappings of statehood stuff, and when the Lisbon Treaty was then put forward it omitted those parts. Yet here we are today with the flag, the anthem and military personnel wearing the blue and gold stars on their uniform and on military hardware. Yet again, steamrolling ahead over the voters.


i am not going in circles over this

What you seem to be saying, is that because the IRA might plant explosives because of new border controls/customs therefore there shouldn't be any border controls and possibly no Brexit. Since when did we run this country based on blackmail from terrorists?

Our instructions come from the ballot box, not threats and semtex.


you understand if we ever negotiate again with the eu it still is 1 of 28, because we are in a position either side of the table to veto any deal
you will probably talk about how "oh we obviously have to give something because how else do you deal with 28 countries!!" well thats how its going to work either way - look at the poor extradition treaty with have with the US already as an example of how this will shaft us

That you view trade as a zero-sum game where one side must lose out is very strange.

I would remind you that it is the EU that is demanding an all-or-nothing approach instead of compromise/halfway house to these talks.

So now it is nothing (no deal). Like I said, I would have liked an FTA but it isn't something we absolutely require so they can get lost now.


if you view something as equal, then there is surely an equal say?

They did get an equal say, we all got one vote each.


ye, they voted to remain

So did four of my friends. But they lost.

[-:Undertaker:-]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8NgTt8ZWBI

[-:Undertaker:-]

A good walk-through by Douglas Carswell here.

It should be a Halloween and Bonfire Night to remember.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq5YX4y3M54&feature=youtu.be