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-:Undertaker:-
03-09-2019, 10:16 PM
21 Conservative MPs are expelled from the party tonight

High-profile former Cabinet Ministers such as Philip Hammond, Ken Clarke, Justine Greening and Dominic Grieve are expelled

A quick run-down of tonight's events...

Firstly tonight, the Speaker and Remainer MPs conspired to have an emergency Section 24 Debate which breaks parliamentary rules and hands control of the House of Commons to the opposition. The Speaker was advised by Commons clerks this was unconstitutional as it was last March, yet he proceeded anyway in defiance.

The government then lost the vote, with 1 Conservative MP (Philip Lee) defecting to the Liberal Democrats and 21 others including former Chancellors Ken Clarke and Philip Hammond also rebelling and voting against the government.

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Then, the Prime Minister announced his intention to forward a motion for a General Election.

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At the same time, 21 Conservative MPs were being told they are being expelled from the party.

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Utterly historic moments. The only similarity in history is the split of the Liberal Party, or the Corn Laws?

I am glad at the size of the rebellion though, my worry was that only a handful would actually rebel but that they would still seize control of the House of Commons timetable anyway, leaving us with the same problem of an internal fifth column.

Meanwhile, the man who Boris Johnson needs to talk to pretty soon cast a warning...

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Think it ends here? Tomorrow MPs will vote on the EU extension bill, with Labour rebellions highly likely.

Thoughts?

-:Undertaker:-
04-09-2019, 08:21 PM
Tonight the Benn EU Extension Bill passed the House of Commons as it was rushed through against parliamentary convention, and now it has gone to the House of Lords. Remainers want to (AGAIN) trash constitutional conventions by limiting the time Lords have to debate the bill and its amendments, however there is a snag to that - any change in procedures itself must be debated and can be dragged out.

Mainly Brexiteer Lords have now lodged 80+ amendments, bringing the total to 117 amendments that must each be voted on twice and debated. Peers have been arriving to the Palace tonight with sleeping bags, toiletries and pillows as a parliamentary session lasting over 100 hours begins.

Lord Howard, Lord Forsyth and others are leading the pro-democracy (Brexit) faction in the Lords.

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Meanwhile, the Government which the Opposition the other day were accusing of a 'coup' and acting like a 'regime' are putting a General Election motion to the House of Commons tonight, and surprise surprise Remain MPs are terrified of going to the public in a General Election and are likely to vote it down.

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Finally, a nuclear option being mooted is this...

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Rapidly as avenues are being closed off by Remainers in Parliament, we're hurtling towards a constitutional crisis.


Our last constitutional crisis in 1910-1911, King-Emperor Edward VII had to step in. And he stepped in on the side of popular democracy.

-:Undertaker:-
04-09-2019, 08:49 PM
Remain MPs, who've been calling for a People's Vote for 3 years, have just voted *against* one.

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Another constitutional convention trashed. The PM will eventually be forced to trash conventions as a way out of this.

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Barkseh
04-09-2019, 09:42 PM
I will be honest Undertaker. I have only come on here to see if you can explain to me wtf is happening because I don't understand haha. Is there now no chance of an election? What happens next? I've been watching it all intrigued but I my thick mind finds it hard to follow ha.


Remain MPs, who've been calling for a People's Vote for 3 years, have just voted *against* one.


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Another constitutional convention trashed. The PM will eventually be forced to trash conventions as a way out of this.

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-:Undertaker:-
04-09-2019, 10:02 PM
I will be honest Undertaker. I have only come on here to see if you can explain to me wtf is happening because I don't understand haha. Is there now no chance of an election? What happens next? I've been watching it all intrigued but I my thick mind finds it hard to follow ha.

The government could try again in a few days for a General Election motion, or call a Vote of No Confidence (VoNC) in itself which requires a simple majority. If it calls a VoNC in itself and it passes just before prorogation, there would then be minimal time for Remain MPs to replace the government.

But then we don't know if a majority is possible to pass a VoNC.

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I still do not see how they can compel a Prime Minister and Government to enact something he does not want to do. This is completely unconstitutional, where the House of Commons has essentially usurped the government and is acting as a government - without no confidencing the government. At the end of the day, they cannot make the PM get on a plane and request an extension. If he refuses, they'll have to remove him and his government.

Constitutional arguments aside though, the optics out there in the country - who Parliament will have to face at some point - is of a Parliament delaying this chaos and more importantly delaying the referendum on top of running away from a General Election. There's going to be a populist blowback to all of this.

dbgtz
05-09-2019, 06:02 PM
a ge, particularly under fptp, is not a peoples vote

-:Undertaker:-
05-09-2019, 06:24 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EDtxlCNWkAEuAVL?format=jpg&name=small


a ge, particularly under fptp, is not a peoples vote

What is, then?

dbgtz
05-09-2019, 06:51 PM
its a general election where a party can get a majority of seats with a plurality of votes

that poster reminds me of a certain famous tweet
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-:Undertaker:-
05-09-2019, 07:02 PM
Like other tweets said earlier, not sure Parliament and HM Opposition have thought this out as to what the public are thinking.

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And here's the PM today sticking to his guns that he will not, as PM, request a Brexit extension.

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its a general election where a party can get a majority of seats with a plurality of votesthat poster reminds me of a certain famous tweet595112367358406656

I don't know how you can post that tweet though, and then at the same time argue for proportional representation. Yes there is chaos at the moment with one party having a minority government, but your system of PR would mean a Lab-Lab-SNP-Green-SDLP-Independents government or some other variation forever - meaning constant government collapse. Like Italy.

dbgtz
05-09-2019, 08:36 PM
I don't know how you can post that tweet though, and then at the same time argue for proportional representation. Yes there is chaos at the moment with one party having a minority government, but your system of PR would mean a Lab-Lab-SNP-Green-SDLP-Independents government or some other variation forever - meaning constant government collapse. Like Italy.

the point youve raised is unrelated to my statement
it was not a post suggesting we should adopt pr

equally nothing in your reply actually explains how a ge is at all a peoples vote because you know it isnt and its disingenuous to suggest it is

-:Undertaker:-
05-09-2019, 08:38 PM
the point youve raised is unrelated to my statement
it was not a post suggesting we should adopt pr

equally nothing in your reply actually explains how a ge is at all a peoples vote because you know it isnt and its disingenuous to suggest it is

That's because we've already had a People's Vote.

And 3 years on, Parliament is unable to pass anything and is obstructing that People's Vote.

So, time for a General Election as the House of Commons is the problem.

dbgtz
05-09-2019, 09:11 PM
That's because we've already had a People's Vote.

And 3 years on, Parliament is unable to pass anything and is obstructing that People's Vote.

So, time for a General Election as the House of Commons is the problem.

so you were lying before by saying parliament voted against a peoples vote by voting against another early general election

-:Undertaker:-
05-09-2019, 10:58 PM
so you were lying before by saying parliament voted against a peoples vote by voting against another early general election

I'm asking you, your side is the side who keeps asking for so-called People's Votes.

Yet we've had a referendum, a General Election and a European Election all confirming that Britain wants to leave the EU.

How many more People's Votes do we need before these two-faced bastards in the House of Commons do as we say?

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Triz
06-09-2019, 09:30 AM
https://media.giphy.com/media/JQvvPeo9t0vW6VbCcI/giphy.gif

dbgtz
06-09-2019, 06:26 PM
I'm asking you, your side is the side who keeps asking for so-called People's Votes.

Yet we've had a referendum, a General Election and a European Election all confirming that Britain wants to leave the EU.

How many more People's Votes do we need before these two-faced bastards in the House of Commons do as we say?

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asking me what
i explained a ge is not equivalent to a peoples vote nor is the eu elections

Inseriousity.
06-09-2019, 07:06 PM
A second referendum/people's vote wouldn't resolve the deadlock as no side would accept the outcome (remainers wouldn't and have already said this publicly, leavers wouldn't because the first one wasn't implemented) whereas a GE could do so if it changes the balance of Parliament* (remainers win, they can extend or revoke article 50, leavers win, repeal the new extension law, leave deal or no deal). It sounds like the latter is Boris' strategy but he's hit a brick wall because they won't vote for the general election they've been banging on about for years (and which I agreed with at the time during May's attempts to pass it through). I can understand why they wouldn't

I've never really had an issue with the Fixed Terms Parliament Act before. The Prime Minister is now essentially hostage to the whims of the Opposition, they can implement legislation and turn the Prime Minister into their puppet because he's lost the majority and needs them to get a general election, which he'd have been able to do themselves before. Interesting thing about the resigning although I doubt it'd look very good from a PR point of view. Ideally, you'd want to start an election campaign from a position of strength. Plus technically, I don't think you're allowed to officially resign as Prime Minister without an alternative in place.

*Of course the risk is that it just results in another hung parliament. I think that Boris is fairly confident of a majority but I wouldn't be so sure. The loss of Scottish seats would need to be made up for in other seats alongside even the weakest of Brexit Party challenges in a FPTP system could mean disaster. I know that senior Tories have complained about the whip being removed but that always felt like a deliberate move to remove remainers from the Conservatives benches. At least that way if it is another hung Parliament with a tory/dup alliance or whatever, at least that way the Conservative leave vote is stronger.

Regardless what happens, this is top quality politics drama right now (sunglasses)

dbgtz
06-09-2019, 11:36 PM
the 2 issues with a ge is that you dont need a majority of votes to get a majority of seats and that a vote for a party doesnt mean you endorse all of their policies - pretty sure even UKIP at its peak had like 10% of members that didnt want to actually leave the eu

-:Undertaker:-
06-09-2019, 11:47 PM
At this point I am not even sure if I would accept the results of a General Election if I am completely honest. I am so disillusioned.

If nobody else is accepting they've lost in democratic votes, then why the hell should I?

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-:Undertaker:-
07-09-2019, 10:05 PM
If you think the last few weeks have been fun, here's what Dominic Cummings cryptically said...

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In other news tonight....


Amber Rudd MP has quit the Cabinet and resigned the Tory whip.

Meanwhile, Angela Smith MP (former Labour, then Change UK) has defected to the Liberal Democrats.


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dbgtz
10-09-2019, 06:07 PM
isnt dominic cummings an unelected bureaucrat

-:Undertaker:-
10-09-2019, 06:25 PM
isnt dominic cummings an unelected bureaucrat

Dominic Cummings can be removed by the British people.

Speaking of Mr Cummings, here he was this morning...

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dbgtz
10-09-2019, 06:41 PM
how do i seek to remove dominic cummings

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-:Undertaker:-
10-09-2019, 06:43 PM
dbgtz;

Through a General Election, or in the case of a minority government, through a Vote of No Confidence.

dbgtz
10-09-2019, 09:06 PM
but nobody voted for him and there is no means to remove him personally
literally an unelected bureaucrat - worse actually since by the sounds of it hes basically hijacked government

-:Undertaker:-
12-09-2019, 01:24 PM
but nobody voted for him and there is no means to remove him personally
literally an unelected bureaucrat - worse actually since by the sounds of it hes basically hijacked government

If he's hijacked the government, Remainers must be desperate for a General Election to remove him immediately.

Oh wait, they just ran away from one, twice.

dbgtz
12-09-2019, 06:44 PM
they havent run away, they just dont want a general election at such a critical point where there needs to be a government to lead
its also strongly theorised/rumoured that part of the reason johnson even wanted one now was to limit the student vote

where are you posting about yellowhammer undertaker? i dont see this among your many threads

-:Undertaker:-
12-09-2019, 10:34 PM
they havent run away, they just dont want a general election at such a critical point where there needs to be a government to lead
its also strongly theorised/rumoured that part of the reason johnson even wanted one now was to limit the student vote

How can a government that no longer has a majority, lead?

The polls show the public back Boris's approach to getting this over and done with by 31st October, Deal or No Deal.


where are you posting about yellowhammer undertaker? i dont see this among your many threads

Is that a new edition of The Beano?

dbgtz
13-09-2019, 07:08 PM
How can a government that no longer has a majority, lead?

The polls show the public back Boris's approach to getting this over and done with by 31st October, Deal or No Deal.
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no they dont

[QUOTE]
Is that a new edition of The Beano?

i suppose you cant call it project fear when its a paper created under a leave-led government
youre seriously deluded

-:Undertaker:-
13-09-2019, 09:12 PM
no they dont

Yes they do.

What is the purpose in another extension? Tell us.


i suppose you cant call it project fear when its a paper created under a leave-led government
youre seriously deluded

It's a paper created by the Remain Civil Service.

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Why don't you tell me actually HOW this country would face medical and fresh food supply shortages? Tell us how that would occur.

dbgtz
14-09-2019, 08:57 AM
Yes they do.

What is the purpose in another extension? Tell us.

thats completely irrelevant to what you just said
show me evidence that the public supports johnsons actions



It's a paper created by the Remain Civil Service.

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Why don't you tell me actually HOW this country would face medical and fresh food supply shortages? Tell us how that would occur.

if it was created by the "remain civil service" they why did michael gove lie about it being out of date and why did they change the wording on it from "base case" to "worst case" just before they released it? Why did they also feel the need to redact some of it?

the answer to your latter question is in section 3, 6, 7, 18.
its really not that hard to understand that imposing customs checks will delay the flow of traffic which will impact time sensitive goods, but if you are struggling with that concept then let me know

-:Undertaker:-
14-09-2019, 11:20 AM
thats completely irrelevant to what you just said
show me evidence that the public supports johnsons actions

I assume you support an extension. Tell me what an extension will achieve.

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if it was created by the "remain civil service" they why did michael gove lie about it being out of date and why did they change the wording on it from "base case" to "worst case" just before they released it? Why did they also feel the need to redact some of it?

Why have the authors of this report not been in touch with Calais/Dover when compiling this report, as IDS discovered?

I'll give you the answer - because it's as much a report reflecting reality as the North Korean news is.


the answer to your latter question is in section 3, 6, 7, 18.
its really not that hard to understand that imposing customs checks will delay the flow of traffic which will impact time sensitive goods, but if you are struggling with that concept then let me know

Well it's lucky we live in the 21st century where we have ships, planes and trains then isn't it.

See this is the problem. Where's your critical thinking skills? Anyone faced with these claims would ask themselves why fresh food and medical supplies would suddenly stop when every non-EU country (150+) has fresh food and medicine supplies. Anyone with an ounce of independent thinking would ponder how on earth we managed to get hold of medical + fresh food supplies before 1994 when the Channel Tunnel opened. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together would know that many of our imports come in through the ports and underneath aeroplanes.

dbgtz
14-09-2019, 05:15 PM
I assume you support an extension. Tell me what an extension will achieve.

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that poll is poor as i may not support a 3 month extension, but may support a 2 year extension, revocation etc.

stop trying to steer the conversation away from showing me evidence people support the actions of boris for a no deal on 31st october


Why have the authors of this report not been in touch with Calais/Dover when compiling this report, as IDS discovered?

I'll give you the answer - because it's as much a report reflecting reality as the North Korean news is.

you mean the same iain duncan smith who brought in universal credit which has been one of the biggest flops in policy implementation in recent memory
he doesnt even name an individual who said they didnt consult the calais side of things so who exactly is meant to refute it? speaking of which, its been in the news since at least january this year that there is some expansion taking place and i highly doubt they wouldnt have done at least a small google on the subject
you also ignore any preperation (or lack of) in dover


Well it's lucky we live in the 21st century where we have ships, planes and trains then isn't it.

See this is the problem. Where's your critical thinking skills? Anyone faced with these claims would ask themselves why fresh food and medical supplies would suddenly stop when every non-EU country (150+) has fresh food and medicine supplies. Anyone with an ounce of independent thinking would ponder how on earth we managed to get hold of medical + fresh food supplies before 1994 when the Channel Tunnel opened. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together would know that many of our imports come in through the ports and underneath aeroplanes.

trains might not be the best example given the only links we have are to eu countries

many other issues i have with what youve just said though, dont you worry
im well aware that a significant amount of our imports come through sea ports, but something that you havent considered in your amazing analysis is their capacity which in most cases could be upgraded even if it has peaked, sure, but this has not happened
i think youre also just dismissing how different it was in 1994 to now
you also just ignore that individuals and businesses may just not be prepared - be it their own fault or not, this still would lead to issues
one of the reasons is literally panic buying
and quite frankly im more likely to trust actual doctors on the issue of medicines than people who went and studied history and to be honest as well, it leaves a sour taste in my mouth when doctors raise genuine concerns and theyre told by people like rees mogg its project fear

i think the worst part about all of your reply is that i dont think you actually read the report since it never says it says the supply of food or medicine will stop

- - - Updated - - -


I assume you support an extension. Tell me what an extension will achieve.

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that poll is poor as i may not support a 3 month extension, but may support a 2 year extension, revocation etc.

stop trying to steer the conversation away from showing me evidence people support the actions of boris for a no deal on 31st october


Why have the authors of this report not been in touch with Calais/Dover when compiling this report, as IDS discovered?

I'll give you the answer - because it's as much a report reflecting reality as the North Korean news is.

you mean the same iain duncan smith who brought in universal credit which has been one of the biggest flops in policy implementation in recent memory
he doesnt even name an individual who said they didnt consult the calais side of things so who exactly is meant to refute it? speaking of which, its been in the news since at least january this year that there is some expansion taking place and i highly doubt they wouldnt have done at least a small google on the subject
you also ignore any preperation (or lack of) in dover


Well it's lucky we live in the 21st century where we have ships, planes and trains then isn't it.

See this is the problem. Where's your critical thinking skills? Anyone faced with these claims would ask themselves why fresh food and medical supplies would suddenly stop when every non-EU country (150+) has fresh food and medicine supplies. Anyone with an ounce of independent thinking would ponder how on earth we managed to get hold of medical + fresh food supplies before 1994 when the Channel Tunnel opened. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together would know that many of our imports come in through the ports and underneath aeroplanes.

trains might not be the best example given the only links we have are to eu countries

many other issues i have with what youve just said though, dont you worry
im well aware that a significant amount of our imports come through sea ports, but something that you havent considered in your amazing analysis is their capacity which in most cases could be upgraded even if it has peaked, sure, but this has not happened
i think youre also just dismissing how different it was in 1994 to now
you also just ignore that individuals and businesses may just not be prepared - be it their own fault or not, this still would lead to issues
one of the reasons is literally panic buying
and quite frankly im more likely to trust actual doctors on the issue of medicines than people who went and studied history and to be honest as well, it leaves a sour taste in my mouth when doctors raise genuine concerns and theyre told by people like rees mogg its project fear

i think the worst part about all of your reply is that i dont think you actually read the report since it never says it says the supply of food or medicine will stop

-:Undertaker:-
14-09-2019, 11:02 PM
that poll is poor as i may not support a 3 month extension, but may support a 2 year extension, revocation etc.

The choice is No Deal or a 3 month extension, which do you support?


stop trying to steer the conversation away from showing me evidence people support the actions of boris for a no deal on 31st october

The polling for the Conservative Party, Boris's personal popularity and the fact the opposition are running away from an election.


you mean the same iain duncan smith who brought in universal credit which has been one of the biggest flops in policy implementation in recent memory
he doesnt even name an individual who said they didnt consult the calais side of things so who exactly is meant to refute it? speaking of which, its been in the news since at least january this year that there is some expansion taking place and i highly doubt they wouldnt have done at least a small google on the subject

IDS is prevented doing so because of Privy Council rules.

If you search online, you'll find Calais have said they are prepared with the Port Chief describing the scaremongering as 'bullshit'.

https://order-order.com/2019/08/12/calais-ports-chief-no-deal-scaremongering-la-bullst/

Alternatively, you could watch this exchange with Iain Dale regarding the Port of Dover.

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you also ignore any preperation (or lack of) in dover

I will give you it that we should have been better prepared earlier, but thanks to former Remain Chancellor Philip Hammond this was made impossible as HM Treasury kept blocking any No Deal preparations. Even PM May, weak as she was, couldn't stand him.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hammond-blocked-no-deal-preparations-cummings-claims-jzvqc9pj6

It reminds me of how Cameron and Osborne blocked the Civil Service from doing any planning in the event of a Leave victory.


trains might not be the best example given the only links we have are to eu countries

Trains run from airports and ports.


many other issues i have with what youve just said though, dont you worry
im well aware that a significant amount of our imports come through sea ports, but something that you havent considered in your amazing analysis is their capacity which in most cases could be upgraded even if it has peaked, sure, but this has not happened

Ports already have a higher capacity for seasonal variations such as Christmas. Think of the countless shipments of Chinese, Taiwanese and Japanese goods being shipped into Britain during November and December. Plenty of capacity and preparation time.


i think youre also just dismissing how different it was in 1994 to now

Island/isolated-nations like Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, Japan, Indonesia, Madagascar and countless others seem to manage in the post-1994 world with purely relying on shipments and air freight. And they're *much* further away from neighbouring countries.


you also just ignore that individuals and businesses may just not be prepared - be it their own fault or not, this still would lead to issues
one of the reasons is literally panic buying

Luckily this government is running a visibility campaign for the 31st October then.


and quite frankly im more likely to trust actual doctors on the issue of medicines than people who went and studied history and to be honest as well, it leaves a sour taste in my mouth when doctors raise genuine concerns and theyre told by people like rees mogg its project fear

The Doctor who Rees-Mogg clashed with is a Remain activist. I trust a Doctor to open my chest up and look inside, I don't trust a Doctor simply because he's a Doctor to tell me the ins and outs of how non-EU customs works. I'll use my own critical thinking.


i think the worst part about all of your reply is that i dont think you actually read the report since it never says it says the supply of food or medicine will stop

So what's the panic all about?

I said earlier, I live and work in Spain and not once have I been in the slightest bit concerned about my well-being vis a vis Brexit.

Cool heads, common sense and we'll prevail.

Seatherny
15-09-2019, 09:19 PM
I said earlier, I live and work in Spain and not once have I been in the slightest bit concerned about my well-being vis a vis Brexit.

You hate the EU yet you live and work in an EU country. You can't seem to see the irony of the fact that you live and work where you do because of the EU. If we were never in the EU or left before you got a job in Spain, maybe you would still be searching for a job in the UK.

-:Undertaker:-
16-09-2019, 12:03 PM
You hate the EU yet you live and work in an EU country. You can't seem to see the irony of the fact that you live and work where you do because of the EU. If we were never in the EU or left before you got a job in Spain, maybe you would still be searching for a job in the UK.

I don't understand what your point is.

I regularly get advertisements and emails from companies in China, India, Vietnam, Russia, Saudi Arabia, the UAE and countless others wanting me to apply there. I could literally move to one of these countries in a couple of weeks should I wish. In fact, right now I am looking at going to work in Australia next year as a possibility. The Commonwealth of Australia, a 100% sovereign nation state.

Now the last time I checked, all of those countries were not in the European Union. So again, what point are you trying to make?

Zak
17-09-2019, 10:59 AM
I regularly get advertisements and emails from companies in China, India, Vietnam, Russia, Saudi Arabia, the UAE and countless others wanting me to apply there. I could literally move to one of these countries in a couple of weeks should I wish.

I was thinking exactly the same thing lol

Seatherny
18-09-2019, 07:21 AM
I don't understand what your point is.

I regularly get advertisements and emails from companies in China, India, Vietnam, Russia, Saudi Arabia, the UAE and countless others wanting me to apply there. I could literally move to one of these countries in a couple of weeks should I wish. In fact, right now I am looking at going to work in Australia next year as a possibility. The Commonwealth of Australia, a 100% sovereign nation state.

Now the last time I checked, all of those countries were not in the European Union. So again, what point are you trying to make?

Are you seriously comparing the job market in Spain to that of China, India etc? Wow, you're more ignorant that I thought.

-:Undertaker:-
18-09-2019, 09:15 PM
Are you seriously comparing the job market in Spain to that of China, India etc? Wow, you're more ignorant that I thought.

We weren't discussing solely the job market. We were talking about living abroad.

Clearly it is possible to live abroad without EU Freedom of Movement. So I don't see any irony in me living and working abroad, no.

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