British government formally rejects request for second Scottish independence vote

[-:Undertaker:-]

British government formally rejects request for second Scottish independence referendum

PM Boris Johnson formally replies to FM Nicola Sturgeon in a letter


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Superb part of the letter that rightly says the British government is "upholding the democratic decision of the Scottish people". The Edinburgh Agreement that the SNP signed was clear as day, that they would respect the outcome of the 2014 vote. Looks like Nicola and friends will have to get back to the day job and actually start running into the ground Scottish schools and hospitals.

Thoughts?

[Samantha]

I agree that they shouldn't have the opportunity to hold a second referendum. They had their say years ago and they didn't want independence. There's only one way I'd say they should have one however - if it was decided in parliament that the UK would have a second vote on whether to leave the EU or not, then I would say that Scotland could hold another one. I understand it doesn't work this way, but the way I see it is if the UK had, had another one and then denied Scotland a chance for a second one, then it's basically being hypocritical. However, a second referendum on whether to leave the EU or not didn't happen, so my original point stands in no I don't think they should.

[Zak]

I don't get the SNP. Desperate to leave the UK and desperate to join the EU??? Harp on about the 'damage to Scotland' that leaving the EU will cause but quite happy to cause similar damage leaving the UK??? I'm not in favour of an independence referendum for Scotland, once in a generation is fine. If Scotland vote to leave when they next have the chance then so be it. England, Scotland and Wales will continue to have strong ties regardless of any outcome.

[-:Undertaker:-]

@Zak (https://www.habboxforum.com/member.php?u=33322);

Whilst there's certainly a legitimate case for nationalism, the bulk of Scottish nationalism seems to be along sectarian/old religious lines. If you looked at the photographs from the Edinburgh protest the other day, countless flags of the Irish Republic and it all ties into the Celtic vs Rangers in Glasgow. In other word, an anti-English (anti-protestant, anti-royalist) streak runs through parts of Scotland as it does in northern Wales and the Republic.

The EU point is very strange, I agree. The Union between Scotland and England (and Northern Ireland and Wales) kept Scots Law, distinct Scots courts, and now we have devolution to Scotland, including the subsidies Scotland enjoys as one of the more deprived parts of Britain (like northern England)... whereas in the European Union there is no exception for national law, Scotland would be a contributor, ever closer union instead of devolution and barely anything culturally in common.

I read on Twitter what the Scottish nationalists write, and it comes across as rather bizarre. Talk of being a colony - literally when Britain was created and including now, it wasn't a case of suppressing Scottish culture and giving English symbolism hegemony. Virtually the entire British identity from the flag, the Royal Coat of Arms, the ceiling in Parliament, the statues on government buildings, military uniform and royal ritual is influenced by/direct from Scotland. There's regiments as far as India, Pakistan and elsewhere that wear the kilt and play the bagpipes for heavens sake. Additionally, if you look at some the greatest builders and merchants of the British Empire they were Scottish or had strong links to Scotland such as David Livingstone and Charles Grant.

The cultural argument above is much more important in my eyes than the economics, but even the economic balance....




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[-:Undertaker:-]

Regarding the below, I have noticed on my visit home last month that all EU flags in Liverpool have now been taken down. Not one left.

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[dbgtz]

@Zak (https://www.habboxforum.com/member.php?u=33322);

Whilst there's certainly a legitimate case for nationalism, the bulk of Scottish nationalism seems to be along sectarian/old religious lines. If you looked at the photographs from the Edinburgh protest the other day, countless flags of the Irish Republic and it all ties into the Celtic vs Rangers in Glasgow. In other word, an anti-English (anti-protestant, anti-royalist) streak runs through parts of Scotland as it does in northern Wales and the Republic.

The EU point is very strange, I agree. The Union between Scotland and England (and Northern Ireland and Wales) kept Scots Law, distinct Scots courts, and now we have devolution to Scotland, including the subsidies Scotland enjoys as one of the more deprived parts of Britain (like northern England)... whereas in the European Union there is no exception for national law, Scotland would be a contributor, ever closer union instead of devolution and barely anything culturally in common.

I read on Twitter what the Scottish nationalists write, and it comes across as rather bizarre. Talk of being a colony - literally when Britain was created and including now, it wasn't a case of suppressing Scottish culture and giving English symbolism hegemony. Virtually the entire British identity from the flag, the Royal Coat of Arms, the ceiling in Parliament, the statues on government buildings, military uniform and royal ritual is influenced by/direct from Scotland. There's regiments as far as India, Pakistan and elsewhere that wear the kilt and play the bagpipes for heavens sake. Additionally, if you look at some the greatest builders and merchants of the British Empire they were Scottish or had strong links to Scotland such as David Livingstone and Charles Grant.

The cultural argument above is much more important in my eyes than the economics, but even the economic balance....




https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/image_data/file/60552/s300_Trucks_gov.uk__small_box_.png


https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/image_data/file/60553/pie_chart_-_gov.uk.png




just going to poke in here and point out the flaw in your argument in referencing your economic argument for the uk to leave the eu in that "theres a bigger world out there" - if we go by your own arguments also of the increasing of trade %age the uk has with row compared to eu, scottish trade to rUK in 2015 from your graph is ~63% but this decreases to 60% in 2017 (https://www2.gov.scot/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Economy/Exports/ESSPublication) whereas eu goes from <16% to >18% and ROW goes from <21% to <22%. so at least if youre going to make economic arguments for staying in a union then be consistent about it or just dont mention it

[-:Undertaker:-]

dbgtz;

Exactly why I said that this isn't about economics, it is about culture.

[dbgtz]

dont bring up a shit argument on economics then

[-:Undertaker:-]

dont bring up a shit argument on economics then

Only repeating the same logic what you and the SNP have been spewing out for the last 4 years.

Come the 31st January, we'll see whether you were right or wrong about economic collapse.

[dbgtz]

Only repeating the same logic what you and the SNP have been spewing out for the last 4 years.

Come the 31st January, we'll see whether you were right or wrong about economic collapse.
except i would have kept the same argument and said that its not in their economic interests to leave, youre the one presenting a hypocritical argument.
Just to be clear as well from 31st jan until at least the end of this year, we are still effectively in the EU and dont you go thinking otherwise

[-:Undertaker:-]

@dbgtz (https://www.habboxforum.com/member.php?u=28789);

Curious to know when the Brexit meltdown will happen as George Osborne predicted in his crystal ball at Remain HQ? I have seen some Remainers now claiming the meltdown won't even happen on the 31st December, but will be "gradual decline" and thus not measurable.

Given we're 100% leaving the SM+CU with no "regulatory alignment" (and thus barriers) why aren't firms fleeing this island as we speak?

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[dbgtz]

undertaker ive literally outright disproven things youve said before but you just ignore it so why would i bother replying when regardless of what i show you, you simply will stick with what you already believe

[-:Undertaker:-]

undertaker ive literally outright disproven things youve said before but you just ignore it so why would i bother replying when regardless of what i show you, you simply will stick with what you already believe

If we leave the EU with a deal, but one which is outside the SM+CU and without regulatory alignment, what will happen post-December 31st?

[dbgtz]

we will have fewer trade agreements than we currently do and we will be in a weaker negotiating position for anything in the future

and blue passports

[-:Undertaker:-]

we will have fewer trade agreements than we currently do and we will be in a weaker negotiating position for anything in the future

and blue passports

Huh? Well this has confused me now, because so many forecasts you parroted before the referendum are now seemingly off the table.

Which is these things is still to your mind going to happen post-December 2020 due to Brexit?

- The housing market will crash as a result of Brexit Y/N
- FDI will dry up as a result of Brexit Y/N
- The economy will enter recession as a result of Brexit Y/N
- Food shortages and lorry queues at Dover due to Brexit Y/N
- Sectarian war in Northern Ireland because of Brexit Y/N
- Companies will move to the Eurozone en mass from the City of London due to Brexit Y/N
- Manufacturing will effectively end as an industry in Britain due to Brexit Y/N


Because now the IMF are predicting that Brexit Britain is going to outgrow the Eurozone this coming year.


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