Hitchens makes claim that masks don't work

[-:Undertaker:-]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-8973423/PETER-HITCHENS-doesnt-matter-vote-Greens-win.html

Masks don't work


Can a Covid virus move only one way through a mask? Or can it go both in and out? Because if it can go both ways, we now know that all this mask-wearing is an almost complete waste of time.

Barely noticed in any major media, a serious Danish trial of the effectiveness of masks finally reported its findings on Wednesday. Three major scientific journals (shame on them) had refused to publish it – one can only guess why.

The Danes did it properly. They recruited almost 5,000 people. Half wore masks, of rather better quality than the sort mainly worn in Britain. Half didn’t.

All lived normal lives. They kept it up for a month. At the end, 1.8 per cent of mask wearers tested positive, and 2.1 per cent of the unmasked tested positive for Covid. In other words, there was almost no difference.

Everyone’s been very careful to say it didn’t measure whether wearing a mask protected others. Not directly. But I’d say that, unless masks and viruses are both one-directional, the answer is pretty clear. Yet with this kind of thin evidence for masks, our Government still threatens non-wearers with tyrannical, ruinous fines of up to £6,400.

What would they impose if they had any decent proof that the things worked? The death penalty?

Having lived in Spain (again) since mid-September and been part of the strictest mask rules in the world, I can confirm it is bollocks. Almost everyone fidgets with their mask, doesn't dispose/replace everyday, doesn't wear a medical mask, doesn't wash daily and often pulls down. A waste of time.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkdTyZ9xd_g

Everyone who wishes to wear a mask - more for mental comfort than any actual benefits - can do so.

But the rest of us should start to refuse to go along with this. And you can. Simply find a card on a charity website for mask exemption:

https://hiddendisabilitiesstore.com/hidden-disabilities-face-covering.html

[dbgtz]

masks are to stop you spreading, not stop you receiving

your argument that masks dont work because "everyone fidgets with their mask, doesn't dispose/replace everyday, doesn't wear a medical mask, doesn't wash daily and often pulls down" doesnt support your point - if people arent following the guidance properly thats an entirely different issue
i can find 100 videos that show the effects of masks to your 1 video, perhaps take a trip on youtube. on that video specifically though, I liked this comment:

"Has no effect", yet we see different dispersion patterns with each mask. Each one with an apparent impact to vapor velocity. All of this "science", yet no control provide. Remember that in your early coursework doctor, the rest of us do. No measure to ensure the same velocity of breath each time through each mask and through the air without a mask restriction. Also no measure of velocity dispersion for each mask. No one is claiming 100% prevention. Its reduction, any reduction. And reduction on both sides plus distancing, have an impact. Yet none of that shown here. I saw none of the vapor swirling the camera lens. However, we can make the assumption it would in the control because your "scientific" experiment lacks one. But the argument here seems to be that no reduction is better than some reduction. 0% is the greatest efficacy.

you cant confirm jack

[Triz]

I once put on a diaper when I was babysitting my girlfriends niece, I didn't put it on properly and it started leaking.

I can now confirm that diapers don't work, not sure why anyone bothers buying them to be honest.

[FlyingJesus]

Should I write a piece for The Mail about how brains don't work because so many people don't use them right? As for three scientific journals refusing to publish it, that's probably because it's not a scientific study at all. Thousands of variables unaccounted for, no control group, incredibly short observation time, and no science involved other than administering a covid test at the end. Once again (how many times am I going to have to say this?) you don't understand virology at all, and spreading this nonsense makes you and your god-idol Hitchens very dangerous people. You're literally misleading people into acting in a way that will get people killed

[-:Undertaker:-]

masks are to stop you spreading, not stop you receiving

That makes absolutely zero sense.

Does the filter in the mask only work one way?


Should I write a piece for The Mail about how brains don't work because so many people don't use them right? As for three scientific journals refusing to publish it, that's probably because it's not a scientific study at all. Thousands of variables unaccounted for, no control group, incredibly short observation time, and no science involved other than administering a covid test at the end. Once again (how many times am I going to have to say this?) you don't understand virology at all, and spreading this nonsense makes you and your god-idol Hitchens very dangerous people. You're literally misleading people into acting in a way that will get people killed

Death from a virus most people are even unaware they have. Terrifying.

Did you wear a mask in 2018 when the flu killed 22,000 of our fellow Britons?


Once again (how many times am I going to have to say this?) you don't understand virology at all

A virus is so small that cloth doesn't stop it. A virus can also be transmitted via the eyes. Your mask does nothing, as proven by rapidly rising rates in Spain.


"Has no effect", yet we see different dispersion patterns with each mask. Each one with an apparent impact to vapor velocity. All of this "science", yet no control provide. Remember that in your early coursework doctor, the rest of us do. No measure to ensure the same velocity of breath each time through each mask and through the air without a mask restriction. Also no measure of velocity dispersion for each mask. No one is claiming 100% prevention. Its reduction, any reduction. And reduction on both sides plus distancing, have an impact. Yet none of that shown here. I saw none of the vapor swirling the camera lens. However, we can make the assumption it would in the control because your "scientific" experiment lacks one. But the argument here seems to be that no reduction is better than some reduction. 0% is the greatest efficacy.

"If everybody behaved as robots in a scientific laboratory and did everything perfectly then our idea would make a slight difference."

Scientific "modelling" in a nutshell. Complete bollocks. See: Economic modelling in regards to Brexit for similar.

[dbgtz]

That makes absolutely zero sense.

Does the filter in the mask only work one way?
Many people argue that cloth masks can’t be effective because they can’t filter out viral particles, which are extremely tiny. But, as Larry explained, most of these particles leave the mouth and nose in much larger droplets that become smaller through evaporation as they move away from the body. Trapping droplets with the mask means not nearly as many viral particles escape. So, when all parties in a gathering are wearing well-constructed, well-fitting masks, it provides an extra layer of safety for everyone. If two people are wearing masks, the viral particles can travel about 5 feet away from each individual. When an infected person is not wearing a mask, those particles can floatthrough the air 30 feet or more and stay alive for up to 30 hours. https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/06/stanford-scientists-contribute-to-who-mask-guidelines.html makes complete sense to me





"If everybody behaved as robots in a scientific laboratory and did everything perfectly then our idea would make a slight difference."

Scientific "modelling" in a nutshell. Complete bollocks. See: Economic modelling in regards to Brexit for similar.

are you that dense you cant understand why you need control variables in experiments? this is primary school level stuff

since you like random youtube videos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6cTDGqcUpA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDeP7-rUZmo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GndKYJ4uBI

[FlyingJesus]

Dan seriously it's not even amusing at this point, when you don't understand something don't talk about it as though you do - especially when you're giving dangerous advice to people. You're wilfully misleading people by ignoring actual science in favour of "BUT HOW COME!!!!!!" and not being interested in the answers to your own questions, which you then ignore and come back time after time with new inane queries. This is not a matter of opinion or debate, you're simply and factually wrong

[jamiexo]

I've seen time & time again, people saying "masks don't work". You're right, they aren't going to work when people have them hanging off their face, their nose uncovered, or not having one on at all. People need to start realizing that they shouldn't put the blame on the masks, but the blame on the people that aren't using them properly. If you put a condom on your hand, that isn't going to be very effective, is it? No, but if you wear them how they are meant to be worn, but would probably be pretty effective.

Sure, cases continue to rise, but that's because I walk in somewhere like Walmart on a busy Saturday and half of the people in there aren't wearing masks anymore.

[-:Undertaker:-]

This is the real reason why the government wants us to wear masks, fear. It's all nothing but visual propaganda.

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https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/06/stanford-scientists-contribute-to-who-mask-guidelines.html makes complete sense to me

are you that dense you cant understand why you need control variables in experiments? this is primary school level stuff

You've just seen a video with your own two eyes where the masks of varying kinds do nothing to stop vapour escaping.


Dan seriously it's not even amusing at this point, when you don't understand something don't talk about it as though you do - especially when you're giving dangerous advice to people. You're wilfully misleading people by ignoring actual science in favour of "BUT HOW COME!!!!!!" and not being interested in the answers to your own questions, which you then ignore and come back time after time with new inane queries. This is not a matter of opinion or debate, you're simply and factually wrong

The "actual science" on this is being debated by scientists themselves, only a few months ago we were told by the Chief Medical Officer that masks were not needed. In addition, studies such as this https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.30.20047217v2 also state masks do not work.

The lockdown zealots such as yourself may loathe debate or questioning, and wish everyone to go along with their dictatorial attitudes. But let me tell you, we're not going away and more and more people are seeing the absurdity in all of this. The very fact you cannot answer why you did not wear a mask during the 2018 flu spike which killed 22,000 Britons shows you know this is all nonsense. Did those 22,000 not matter? Is it only those who die from Covid-19 who matter?

I just had the news last night that the wife of the 99 year old my aunty knows has also now died within 13 days of him dying. Why? Not because of the disease society was locked down in under the guise of their "protection", but because they've had their social lives robbed and have declined because of it. In "protecting" them, the measures have actually killed them. That is being repeated across the country, except their deaths won't be flashing across the screen in red writing just as all the undiagnosed cancers and other illnesses won't be flashed across the screen.


I've seen time & time again, people saying "masks don't work". You're right, they aren't going to work when people have them hanging off their face, their nose uncovered, or not having one on at all. People need to start realizing that they shouldn't put the blame on the masks, but the blame on the people that aren't using them properly. If you put a condom on your hand, that isn't going to be very effective, is it? No, but if you wear them how they are meant to be worn, but would probably be pretty effective.

Sure, cases continue to rise, but that's because I walk in somewhere like Walmart on a busy Saturday and half of the people in there aren't wearing masks anymore.

Spain has had strict enforcement of masks since March (including anywhere outdoors) and its rates of transmission are no better than elsewhere.

[FlyingJesus]

Your own link there actually concludes that the trials it compares were badly done and that they'd recommend mask usage along with other measures - this is what is happening. So no, it's still not a matter of opinion. I really don't want to bring in disclaimers for all your nonsense posts like they do with Trump but if you're going to carry on being dangerously wrong and giving the community harmful advice then it might just have to happen. I'm sure you'd love that so you can claim censorship and have another tantrum, but if you could please try to avoid that by just not posting lies as facts that would be wonderful.

Interesting that you use the 22,000 figure that I myself gave you after you tried claiming it was double that (a number out of thin air) and once again we should note that corona is not the same thing as flu. You keep talking about how things other than death matter, and yes other factors do matter, which is why you shouldn't carry on ignoring all of the "long covid" symptoms and everything else it affects for those who do not die of it. Once again I shall say that I have no problem with mask usage in flu season like Asian countries suggest, it really is not that much of an inconvenience.

Nice to see yet another personal anecdote from you in lieu of science and facts. Funny how in your eyes an 80 year old dying of corona is just their time being up oh well ladeedaa, but a 99 year old's death means they have been BRUTALLY MURDERED BY THE GOVERNMENT!!! Behave. You cherry pick even among your own falsities just to come up with whatever result you want to spew, and frankly I'd rather you kept away if you're going to encourage my community to act in harmful ways just because you're sad you can't have a beer

[dbgtz]

and ive just linked you 3 in how they work lol, 1 of which is relating to an actual study

"see with my own eyes" it's an online video which can easily be edited - notice how he both doesn't compare to vaping without a mask and also commentates OVER most of the video despite the fact you can clearly see his lips move as if he's commentating "live"

[-:Undertaker:-]

Here's the American equivalent to our Chief Medical Officer on the wearing of masks.

1330576338693009411


Your own link there actually concludes that the trials it compares were badly done and that they'd recommend mask usage along with other measures - this is what is happening. So no, it's still not a matter of opinion. I really don't want to bring in disclaimers for all your nonsense posts like they do with Trump but if you're going to carry on being dangerously wrong and giving the community harmful advice then it might just have to happen. I'm sure you'd love that so you can claim censorship and have another tantrum, but if you could please try to avoid that by just not posting lies as facts that would be wonderful.

You're so sure of your argument you're threatening censorship.

People are free to make up their own minds on masks *and* whether to wear one whether you and the other mask zealots like it or not.


Interesting that you use the 22,000 figure that I myself gave you after you tried claiming it was double that (a number out of thin air) and once again we should note that corona is not the same thing as flu. You keep talking about how things other than death matter, and yes other factors do matter, which is why you shouldn't carry on ignoring all of the "long covid" symptoms and everything else it affects for those who do not die of it. Once again I shall say that I have no problem with mask usage in flu season like Asian countries suggest, it really is not that much of an inconvenience.

So you'll consider wearing a mask for all time then, glad we finally got you to answer. I'm not going to wear one for all time and if that makes me selfish so what.

Let's extend that logic - would you lock down the economy every winter to save the 10,000, 15,000 or 22,000 who die every year from flu?


Nice to see yet another personal anecdote from you in lieu of science and facts. Funny how in your eyes an 80 year old dying of corona is just their time being up oh well ladeedaa, but a 99 year old's death means they have been BRUTALLY MURDERED BY THE GOVERNMENT!!! Behave. You cherry pick even among your own falsities just to come up with whatever result you want to spew, and frankly I'd rather you kept away if you're going to encourage my community to act in harmful ways just because you're sad you can't have a beer

No, they haven't been murdered and I refuse to use silly languages throughout this like you have been, claiming that not believing in a policy is akin to murder. But they have had their quality of life in their final year removed, which is quite likely to have led to their decline in previous good health meaning your desire to "protect" them has actually led to their death. And this is being repeated right across the country where old people are literally wasting away inside their houses because their social activities and lives have been curtailed to protect them from what's essentially a bad flu.

Perhaps we should have a rolling ticker next year on the news to show all the people dying from undiagnosed/untreated cancers, or a clock which shows the millions of people who've lost their businesses, or one which shows all the homes being lost because people can't pay their mortgages... I could go on and on listing the damage.


and ive just linked you 3 in how they work lol, 1 of which is relating to an actual study

"see with my own eyes" it's an online video which can easily be edited - notice how he both doesn't compare to vaping without a mask and also commentates OVER most of the video despite the fact you can clearly see his lips move as if he's commentating "live"

Now the video is a conspiracy theory.

I have no problem in you wearing a mask if you really feel it does something - but I won't wear one and I refuse to be forced in much the same way I won't be taking any vaccine they rush through. Let the politicians take it first, and we'll see how they get on after 5 years or so and maybe then consider.

[FlyingJesus]

It's not censorship to alert people that you're talking nonsense, but I knew you'd like that :) :) :) anything to feel big and important eh Dan. Glad you've finally admitted that you're selfish, now if you'd just stop with the lies and falsehoods with regards to the science behind everything we're all good.

IT'S NOT A FLU

[-:Undertaker:-]

Just spoke to a friend then who is totally anti-lockdown who's ailing grandmother died earlier this year from Covid-19. Somebody he knows, their grandparent has just passed away because being stuck in basically turned them into a vegetable. But at least he [the grandparent] is safe from Coronavirus in his coffin 6ft under.


It's not censorship to alert people that you're talking nonsense, but I knew you'd like that :) :) :) anything to feel big and important eh Dan. Glad you've finally admitted that you're selfish, now if you'd just stop with the lies and falsehoods with regards to the science behind everything we're all good.

IT'S NOT A FLU

Here's a handy list below of top scientists who disagree with you and the selfish policies you support that are costing people their lives, happiness and homes.

https://gbdeclaration.org/

It's vital people know that just because the government follows a particular policy doesn't make it right or just and that there is a debate out there on all this.

[dbgtz]

Now the video is a conspiracy theory.

I have no problem in you wearing a mask if you really feel it does something - but I won't wear one and I refuse to be forced in much the same way I won't be taking any vaccine they rush through. Let the politicians take it first, and we'll see how they get on after 5 years or so and maybe then consider.



it's called looking at something critically - why doesn't he show the comparison between with and without a mask? if he's not showing the case without a mask, how can that prove masks don't work?

and why do you ignore the videos I've shown to you? what makes the one you posted so special?

[-:Undertaker:-]

70 MPs are now threatening to vote against anymore measures unless the government can demonstrate (which it hasn't until now) with evidence that restrictions and lockdowns actually save more lives than they cost. Common sense is starting to spread across the land, just read the comment sections.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EnbjyUwWMAED1iZ?format=jpg&name=900x900

1330443234552713218


it's called looking at something critically - why doesn't he show the comparison between with and without a mask? if he's not showing the case without a mask, how can that prove masks don't work?

and why do you ignore the videos I've shown to you? what makes the one you posted so special?

You can see from the video the vape escapes everywhere and does virtually nothing. And, that was just one breath he demonstrated. Think of someone wearing a mask taking multiple breaths, walking around and with currents in the wind (both indoors and outdoors) and you can see it is a complete waste of time. If you go into a supermarket, there's dozens if not hundreds of people walking around wearing masks all with that vape coming out of their mask - the idea it is protecting you from catching this virus is nothing other than a false sense of security.

And I can't watch videos at the moment due to low data I am afraid.

[YellowBelli]

I don't care for the debate on mask wearing, however I will say this...

To anyone who thinks about faking a disability for an exempt card: you are trash. 8-)

[-:Undertaker:-]

I don't care for the debate on mask wearing, however I will say this...

To anyone who thinks about faking a disability for an exempt card: you are trash. 8-)

You don't have to fake anything to get an exemption card.

Nobody has the right to ask about your reasons for not wearing a mask, government advice even states this.

But given the amount of mask wearing zealots thinking it is their business to prod into other people's clothing choices, an exemption card may help those who wish to avoid the grief of a deranged maniac shouting and screaming at them for exercising their right to wear what they want. Not everyone wants confrontation.

[dbgtz]

You can see from the video the vape escapes everywhere and does virtually nothing. And, that was just one breath he demonstrated. Think of someone wearing a mask taking multiple breaths, walking around and with currents in the wind (both indoors and outdoors) and you can see it is a complete waste of time. If you go into a supermarket, there's dozens if not hundreds of people walking around wearing masks all with that vape coming out of their mask - the idea it is protecting you from catching this virus is nothing other than a false sense of security.

And I can't watch videos at the moment due to low data I am afraid.
except it doesn't prove anything because he hasn't shown the test case without the mask, that's the point. if the test case without a mask covers more area (which I can only assume it does) then it proves that the masks do work, but he doesn't show it. it would be like saying the colour blue is more popular by showing the number for how many people prefer red

and the reality is nobodys said a mask going to contain absolutely everything and will singlehandedly stop all viruses spreading ever.

i suspect you wont bother watching those videos even when data isnt an issue, that or you will just ignore them anyway as it doesnt conform to your desire to not wear a mask

[-:Undertaker:-]

So who is dying from Covid-19?

To put it simply, the victims are overwhelmingly the elderly and those with pre-existing conditions.

Of the 37,470 Covid-19 deaths recorded by NHS England up to November 18, 53.7 percent were of people aged over 80.

In comparison, there have been just 275 deaths (only 0.7 per cent of the total) in people under 40.

And crucially, those who have died from Covid-19 are overwhelmingly likely to have suffered from a pre-existing condition.

Of those who have died from coronavirus, 35,806 people (95.6 per cent of the total) had at least one pre-existing serious medical condition.

In fact, there have been just 42 deaths of people aged under 40 without a pre-existing condition.

Surely more elderly people are dying than normal?

It doesn’t look like it. According to the latest Office for National Statistics (ONS) figures – for October 2020 – in spite of all the Covid-19 deaths, the average death rate in the over-75s was significantly lower this year than it was last October – 6,901.7 per 100,000 people, compared with 7141.7 for last year.

Staggering statistics which demonstrate just how hysterical the reaction to this virus has been.


except it doesn't prove anything because he hasn't shown the test case without the mask, that's the point. if the test case without a mask covers more area (which I can only assume it does) then it proves that the masks do work, but he doesn't show it. it would be like saying the colour blue is more popular by showing the number for how many people prefer red

and the reality is nobodys said a mask going to contain absolutely everything and will singlehandedly stop all viruses spreading ever.

It appears to make absolutely no difference though, given the situation in Spain with strict mask enforcement versus the situation in Britain.

If something doesn't make any difference, why do it?


i suspect you wont bother watching those videos even when data isnt an issue, that or you will just ignore them anyway as it doesnt conform to your desire to not wear a mask

Even if masks were proven to work to some extent, I wouldn't wear one that is correct. As Lord Sumption said, we should all be free to take the risks we ourselves deem acceptable. I have no qualms or fears going into a crowded bar or public space with zero social distancing and without a mask.

I didn't wear a mask for the flu in 2018 that killed 22,000 Britons and I have no guilt whatsoever that I did not do so.

[dbgtz]

Staggering statistics which demonstrate just how hysterical the reaction to this virus has been.



It appears to make absolutely no difference though, given the situation in Spain with strict mask enforcement versus the situation in Britain.

If something doesn't make any difference, why do it? except you yourself have said that people aren't following proper guidance or simply not wearing a mask, so how can you say it isn't working? either people are following the advice and you were lying before, or the advice isn't being followed. you can't have it both ways




Even if masks were proven to work to some extent, I wouldn't wear one that is correct. As Lord Sumption said, we should all be free to take the risks we ourselves deem acceptable. I have no qualms or fears going into a crowded bar or public space with zero social distancing and without a mask.

I didn't wear a mask for the flu in 2018 that killed 22,000 Britons and I have no guilt whatsoever that I did not do so.
therein lies the heart of it - you simply do not care about the truth you just want to do whatever you want to do with no thought of the consequence to others. it's a fucking mask, grow up

[-:Undertaker:-]

except you yourself have said that people aren't following proper guidance or simply not wearing a mask, so how can you say it isn't working? either people are following the advice and you were lying before, or the advice isn't being followed. you can't have it both ways

Yes, and a policy has to be workable for it to be proven a success. The fact is that human beings are not robots, and will adjust an uncomfortable and annoying mask on their face whether guidelines say they should or not. That's life. Given we live in reality and not a scientific experiment under correct conditions, the policy is a failure.


therein lies the heart of it - you simply do not care about the truth you just want to do whatever you want to do with no thought of the consequence to others. it's a fucking mask, grow up

Are you going to wear a mask now until you die? To protect others from the common flu which kills thousands each year?

[dbgtz]

Yes, and a policy has to be workable for it to be proven a success. The fact is that human beings are not robots, and will adjust an uncomfortable and annoying mask on their face whether guidelines say they should or not. That's life. Given we live in reality and not a scientific experiment under correct conditions, the policy is a failure.
masks as a policy has nothing to do with your original arguments and the video you posted

Are you going to wear a mask now until you die? To protect others from the common flu which kills thousands each year?

id have no issue wearing a mask in flu season

[-:Undertaker:-]

id have no issue wearing a mask in flu season

Hang on, why only flu season? Why not all the time?

[Triz]

Thread closed because there's no more discussion to be had here.
The WHO have said that masks are a "key measure to suppress transmission and save lives" and we suggest our members follow their government and country rules or mandates accordingly. Learn more (https://www.who.int/news-room/q-a-detail/coronavirus-disease-covid-19-masks)