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View Full Version : Tier 4 as the government cancels Christmas for millions



-:Undertaker:-
19-12-2020, 05:01 PM
Tier 4 announced for London, Kent and South-East

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Meanwhile, millions of cancer scans are being cancelled, suicides are up and job losses are outstripping the 2008 recession. It's like having warts on your finger, and the Doctor suggests amputating your hand as a cure.

My friend who lives in central London and his girlfriend have just finished packing now and are on their way to Wales in the next hour - first thing I did was to call him and say get the fuck out now while you still can. And a new strain has arisen there in southern England? LOL. How predictable, so it does behave just like the incurable flu then as many of us said months ago. Surprise surprise! (not).

peteyt
19-12-2020, 05:17 PM
Tier 4 announced for London, Kent and South-East

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Meanwhile, millions of cancer scans are being cancelled, suicides are up and job losses are outstripping the 2008 recession. It's like having warts on your finger, and the Doctor suggests amputating your hand as a cure.

My friend who lives in central London and his girlfriend have just finished packing now and are on their way to Wales in the next hour - first thing I did was to call him and say get the **** out now while you still can. And a new strain has arisen there in southern England? LOL. How predictable, so it does behave just like the incurable flu then as many of us said months ago. Surprise surprise! (not).Sadly I have to disagree with you. As someone who works for a supermarket I have seen people breaking the rules since the start e.g. during the first lockdown coming in 5 times a day for scratch cards and often more times. If that person was infected everytime they came out they could technically put someone at risk.

Yes some things may be overblown but I feel if they had been swift and strict from the start things would be different. I called the second lockdown ages before it happened and had people I know telling me it would never happen due to the economy etc. They said they wouldn't and umed and ared. If they had done it quicker and closed the schools which seemed to be a key infection factor things might be a little different.

I still say the first lockdown wasn't strict enough and they reopened pubs and stuff far too early and should have held off longer

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-:Undertaker:-
19-12-2020, 05:25 PM
Sadly I have to disagree with you. As someone who works for a supermarket I have seen people breaking the rules since the start e.g. during the first lockdown coming in 5 times a day for scratch cards and often more times. If that person was infected everytime they came out they could technically put someone at risk.

Yes some things may be overblown but I feel if they had been swift and strict from the start things would be different. I called the second lockdown ages before it happened and had people I know telling me it would never happen due to the economy etc. They said they wouldn't and umed and ared. If they had done it quicker and closed the schools which seemed to be a key infection factor things might be a little different.

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I keep seeing the British public being blamed for "breaking the rules" but quite clearly the rules are incompatible with human behaviour.

Spain endured and has endured much harsher restrictions since March and it has made ZERO difference.


I still say the first lockdown wasn't strict enough and they reopened pubs and stuff far too early and should have held off longer

I'm sorry but this line of thinking is - in the words of Lord Sumption below - fanatical.

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-:Undertaker:-
19-12-2020, 05:54 PM
*REMOVED* had to go one further, of course.

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Please do not resort to name calling

FlyingJesus
19-12-2020, 06:16 PM
Not making a full response because you never listen and are completely unwilling to learn, but I do need to say that you've been asked before not to encourage people to break the law and put themselves at risk. Having a ridiculous opinion that flies in the face of all facts is one thing, but purposely putting others in danger (both legally and medically) is not something we want here

-:Undertaker:-
19-12-2020, 06:17 PM
Not making a full response because you never listen and are completely unwilling to learn, but I do need to say that you've been asked before not to encourage people to break the law and put themselves at risk. Having a ridiculous opinion that flies in the face of all facts is one thing, but purposely putting others in danger (both legally and medically) is not something we want here

Lord Sumption, a former Supreme Court justice, has himself told people to make individual choices on which of these measures to follow.

People are entitled to make their own calls on this, whether they want to stay inside and shelter or whether they want to take the supposed risk.

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This pro-lockdown MP has been on the media calling for more draconian measures for months.

Turns out even he doesn't believe what he and his government are saying. Would you go to a dinner of 27 if you genuinely believed this was a deadly virus?

FlyingJesus
19-12-2020, 06:19 PM
Great, he's not on this forum. Law is law, we do not allow for illegal activity or encouraging it here

-:Undertaker:-
19-12-2020, 06:22 PM
Great, he's not on this forum. Law is law, we do not allow for illegal activity or encouraging it here

Have you ever smoked cannabis?

I recall you in the past stating you have take illegal drugs although correct me if I am wrong.

FlyingJesus
19-12-2020, 06:31 PM
There is a vast difference between saying you've done something in the past and encouraging masses to commit a certain act in the future. This is not difficult, I've made a very simple request and I don't know why you're trying so hard to fight it that you needed to go wildly off topic to attack me. I'm not saying you can't have your opinion, I'm literally just asking you not to tell people that they should break the law. This did not need to become a discussion, it's not one I want to continue, and any further replies to me here will be taken as a clear attempt to just cause arguments

-:Undertaker:-
19-12-2020, 06:50 PM
Throwback to last month when the government and its "scientists" lied to us over the last set of lockdown laws: https://www.bbc.com/news/health-54831334

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Tory backbenchers and the CRG already calling for a vote on these arbitrary "laws" that the Prime Minister is issuing.

dbgtz
19-12-2020, 07:11 PM
as much as this whole situation sucks i can at least enjoy how fptp and the government you voted in which basically filled its MPs and the cabinet with yes men has basically come to bite you in the arse

peteyt
19-12-2020, 09:10 PM
I keep seeing the British public being blamed for "breaking the rules" but quite clearly the rules are incompatible with human behaviour.

Spain endured and has endured much harsher restrictions since March and it has made ZERO difference.



I'm sorry but this line of thinking is - in the words of Lord Sumption below - fanatical.

1339124700744716291My point is lockdowns will not work if people don't follow them and you telling people not to follow them will just add to the problem. I mean look at China. They seem far better now and part of me wonders if this is due to how strict the government is in general.

In my work there are young people unhappy that they can't go out and get drunk with some stating they just want to go out and don't care if they get infected, they should be able to live their life. And to me it's this selfish thinking that is part of the issue. They aren't thinking of the consequences and some who said this where often helping vulnerable family. So yeah they get infected but don't care but then could pass that on to someone else who isn't as healthy.

The thing is I know people who had to shield due to being vulnerable and they aren't happy that they stayed in following the rules and sometimes struggling while others just did what they want.

In places like Dubai you had to book slots to go shopping. This isn't ideal but it would stop people being able to go out to a shop 5-6 times a day often for stuff that wasn't essential

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-:Undertaker:-
19-12-2020, 09:51 PM
as much as this whole situation sucks i can at least enjoy how fptp and the government you voted in which basically filled its MPs and the cabinet with yes men has basically come to bite you in the arse

I do not see the connection. Her Majesty's Official Opposition is even more committed to draconian measures than Her Majesty's Government.

Sadly, I am fighting from the outside yet again with this new crusade. But much like the great European battle, we started as a small group of "odd" outsiders and grew into a national force. I am confident we can continue to hold the government to account, build support by spreading truth and resisting.

I was sceptical about Iraq and official claims of WMD, I was sceptical about official claims about Brexit, and I find myself on the same terrain with Coronavirus.


My point is lockdowns will not work if people don't follow them and you telling people not to follow them will just add to the problem. I mean look at China. They seem far better now and part of me wonders if this is due to how strict the government is in general.

In my work there are young people unhappy that they can't go out and get drunk with some stating they just want to go out and don't care if they get infected, they should be able to live their life. And to me it's this selfish thinking that is part of the issue. They aren't thinking of the consequences and some who said this where often helping vulnerable family. So yeah they get infected but don't care but then could pass that on to someone else who isn't as healthy.

The thing is I know people who had to shield due to being vulnerable and they aren't happy that they stayed in following the rules and sometimes struggling while others just did what they want.

In places like Dubai you had to book slots to go shopping. This isn't ideal but it would stop people being able to go out to a shop 5-6 times a day often for stuff that wasn't essential

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China is a ghastly dictatorship that does not tell the truth and adopts hideously anti-freedom measures to quell any displeasure.

It is not a country to emulate. I ask again, to what extent exactly are you prepared to go to in order to stop a relatively mild virus?

peteyt
19-12-2020, 10:51 PM
I do not see the connection. Her Majesty's Official Opposition is even more committed to draconian measures than Her Majesty's Government.

Sadly, I am fighting from the outside yet again with this new crusade. But much like the great European battle, we started as a small group of "odd" outsiders and grew into a national force. I am confident we can continue to hold the government to account, build support by spreading truth and resisting.

I was sceptical about Iraq and official claims of WMD, I was sceptical about official claims about Brexit, and I find myself on the same terrain with Coronavirus.



China is a ghastly dictatorship that does not tell the truth and adopts hideously anti-freedom measures to quell any displeasure.

It is not a country to emulate. I ask again, to what extent exactly are you prepared to go to in order to stop a relatively mild virus?If they told us to stay in doors for 6 months let's say with one bit of daily exercise outdoors, and able to go out for work and to visit someone if they needed care e.g. lived on their own id be fine with that. I'd rather sacrifice stuff for the short term and have a better future longterm. That's what annoys me, if people hadn't went out unnecessarily during the first lockdown and they'd waited a little longer to lift it would things have been better.

As I mentioned if someone goes out into a shop 5 times a day aren't they more likely to spread the virus if they have it or even catch it than if they went just once a week? I mean you still get people who put notes in their mouth and then wonder why people refuse to take it from them. That to me is unhygienic even without a pandemic

As for brexit both sides where just as bad making up figures etc.

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-:Undertaker:-
20-12-2020, 12:29 AM
If they told us to stay in doors for 6 months let's say with one bit of daily exercise outdoors, and able to go out for work and to visit someone if they needed care e.g. lived on their own id be fine with that. I'd rather sacrifice stuff for the short term and have a better future longterm. That's what annoys me, if people hadn't went out unnecessarily during the first lockdown and they'd waited a little longer to lift it would things have been better.

As I mentioned if someone goes out into a shop 5 times a day aren't they more likely to spread the virus if they have it or even catch it than if they went just once a week? I mean you still get people who put notes in their mouth and then wonder why people refuse to take it from them. That to me is unhygienic even without a pandemic

As for brexit both sides where just as bad making up figures etc.

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But yet again, countries such as Spain have decidied this and it has made little/no difference to the statististics.

peteyt
20-12-2020, 12:48 AM
But yet again, countries such as Spain have decidied this and it has made little/no difference to the statististics.I can't answer for them i just feel you can't say a lockdown isn't working when people aren't following it. People are complaining about them trying to be stricter but surely if people didn't break the rules there wouldn't be any need for stricter rules.

I'm not saying everything would be perfect but I do think we'd be in a better position if they had acted faster in the start and locked down quicker and then did it for longer. I feel we are going to keep getting these little lockdowns and I'd rather just do one long strict one

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Bbcuklol
20-12-2020, 11:19 AM
If people were to follow the rules and that then I think Tier 4 would of not been in place by this point, we just got to hope that the oxford vaccine gets approved soon/Hopefully by the new year. I just hope that the UK won't need a third lockdown. School and colleges staying which I don't thinks helps as well given the rise in case of sorts of places.

lawrawrrr
20-12-2020, 12:31 PM
I do think this lockdown will be extended into the new year, particularly with this new strain that's popped up. Just really hope the vaccine roll-out happens as quickly as possible!

Seatherny
21-12-2020, 12:02 AM
Stupid people complaining: OMG BORIS, THIS IS SUCH SHORT NOTICE!!

Well, what did you want Boris to do? Ring up COVID and ask it to take a 7 day break so people didn't complain about the short notice?

How can people be so stupid?

dbgtz
21-12-2020, 11:43 AM
i mean there was plenty of time to make these announcements
it was only last wednesday when he said he wasnt going to do it and tried to shame keir starmer

-:Undertaker:-
21-12-2020, 05:38 PM
Spoke to 3 Britons in the airport yesterday who each told me they were not going to follow isolation/mask rules when they arrived back home.

Interestingly, I was interviewed in the Spanish airport by a Spanish TV channel regarding the news of the new strain and closures, as well as the Coronavirus situation in general and I told them I thought the whole thing was overblown and absurd. Whether it'll make it to the airwaves who knows.


I can't answer for them i just feel you can't say a lockdown isn't working when people aren't following it. People are complaining about them trying to be stricter but surely if people didn't break the rules there wouldn't be any need for stricter rules.

I'm not saying everything would be perfect but I do think we'd be in a better position if they had acted faster in the start and locked down quicker and then did it for longer. I feel we are going to keep getting these little lockdowns and I'd rather just do one long strict one

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How many lockdowns do we need before we accept they do not work and in fact do more damage than they prevent?

It is no good blaming the public for an unworkable policy. I am sure we could in theory eradicate nits if we all shaved our heads, but is it realistic?


If people were to follow the rules and that then I think Tier 4 would of not been in place by this point, we just got to hope that the oxford vaccine gets approved soon/Hopefully by the new year. I just hope that the UK won't need a third lockdown. School and colleges staying which I don't thinks helps as well given the rise in case of sorts of places.

Almost every country that has done lockdowns has failed because you cannot eradicate an airborne virus that is endemic.

How many more people are going to miss cancer screenings, life saving operations and die alone before we say this is becoming dangerously fanatical?

buttons
21-12-2020, 06:18 PM
never thought we should have had the 5 days without rules in the first place

-:Undertaker:-
21-12-2020, 08:00 PM
never thought we should have had the 5 days without rules in the first place

Isn't it more prudent to step away from sweeping measures like that and actually look at the evidence before closing millions of shops costing hundreds of thousands of people their jobs, ruining Christmas for the entire country, denying old people some of which will be their last Christmas with their families...?

Evidence such as this:

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It seems now as if there's a constant race to become the most authoritarian, extreme and iron-fisted despite the actual evidence and statistics out there.

dbgtz
21-12-2020, 09:42 PM
have you read the full "report" from nick triggle or did you just decide to not bother looking it up yourself

-:Undertaker:-
21-12-2020, 11:31 PM
have you read the full "report" from nick triggle or did you just decide to not bother looking it up yourself

No, I haven't been listening to the tripe pumped out by the BBC or Sky News. After all, after being subjected to months of scaremongering by Kay Burley and Beth Rigby, both were caught along with dozens of other Sky News staff, partying and kissing one another in a London bar. Even they don't believe the nonsense they parrot. Scaring the general public with red flashing numbers of quite normal death rates among the very old and very sick, whilst the very same journalists/politicians/scientists don't follow their own arbitrary rules.

No, what one must do is look at the figures. And the figures quite clearly show that:

- Hospitals across the country are at normal capacity and even at times under normal capacity for this time of year.
- Victims of Coronavirus are those aged 80+ with chronic and often multiple co-morbidities, near the end of their lives.

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We ought to examine the actual evidence rather than dodgy models and projections (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8995781/Michael-Gove-says-hospitals-England-overwhelmed-new-Tiers-not-brought-in.html) released by the government that were slammed by the UK Statistics Authority.

-:Undertaker:-
22-12-2020, 12:02 AM
I forgot to post this actually which made me laugh and roll my eyes with two other passengers I was speaking with.

On Sunday when in a Spanish airport, we were queuing for our boarding passes for a RyanAir flight back to Britain. About 3 times in 30 minutes, a Spanish airport worker was shouting at passengers to keep to the 2 metre social distancing rule while in the queue. Then, we [the same people in the queue] got on the plane and we were sitting elbow to elbow with the flight at full capacity, breathing in the same recycled air for 2 hours and 20 minutes.

Farcical, unhinged, absurd, ridiculous, comical, a charade.

Almost as illogical as the arbitrary rule that you can't drink a pint in a pub, but you can drink a pint provided it is accompanied by a Chicken Tikka Balti.

Or the one where you can't hug or even visit your grandmother for a year, but your grandmother can go into a supermarket and handle coins and bank notes.

-:Undertaker:-
22-12-2020, 05:53 PM
Wales, which has had some of the strictest and most frequent lockdowns in Britain, is now seeing cases spiral upwards.

But will cloth ears Generalissimo Drakeford finally get it into his skull that lockdowns do not work? Don't bet the house on it.

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Yupt
23-12-2020, 07:57 AM
I'm going to ignore all the comments here practically encouraging others to break the restrictions designed to help us and instead comment on 'emptier beds' statistic thats being thrown around in here regarding hospitals instead.

I'm not sure how this data is collected, and frankly I'm incredibly sceptical about it, however I would like to pass on what I've been told by various friends and indeed my own partner who all work for the NHS in different areas and including the ICU - and that's that beds are at max capacity, and unfortunately more and more of them are being filled by health care workers themselves who have caught the virus. Now I'm not saying the system is perfect, it's certainly true that there are many suffering through non-covid related issues that perhaps require the aid of the NHS more than those of which are currently getting attended to, however I think it un-wise and selfish to spread articles and slander the restrictions based on what a twitter user is reporting.

-:Undertaker:-
23-12-2020, 09:36 AM
I'm going to ignore all the comments here practically encouraging others to break the restrictions designed to help us and instead comment on 'emptier beds' statistic thats being thrown around in here regarding hospitals instead.

I'm not sure how this data is collected, and frankly I'm incredibly sceptical about it, however I would like to pass on what I've been told by various friends and indeed my own partner who all work for the NHS in different areas and including the ICU - and that's that beds are at max capacity, and unfortunately more and more of them are being filled by health care workers themselves who have caught the virus. Now I'm not saying the system is perfect, it's certainly true that there are many suffering through non-covid related issues that perhaps require the aid of the NHS more than those of which are currently getting attended to, however I think it un-wise and selfish to spread articles and slander the restrictions based on what a twitter user is reporting.

It's NHS data being reported by the BBC, not "slander from a Twitter user".

The beds are not at max capacity, that is an outrageous falsehood for you to spread that is not backed by any statistics. They aren't even at normal capacity.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54712003


Despite the rising number of admissions, only about one in 15 UK hospital beds are occupied by a Covid patient.

What we can't say - because up-to-date figures are not being published by NHS bosses - is exactly how full hospitals actually are. In recent years, hospitals tend to have had about 90% of beds occupied at any one time.

In the summer, when the last audit was done, this had dropped to below 70% - there were few Covid cases and levels of non-Covid work were still below normal. Even taking into account the rise in Covid admissions, it probably leaves hospitals with thousands more beds than normal at this time last year.

"Hospitals effectively have between 10% and 30% less capacity than they would normally. You cannot expect every bed to be full."

https://c.files.bbci.co.uk/157B6/production/_114809978_ae-nc.png

-:Undertaker:-
23-12-2020, 05:27 PM
*REMOVED*
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ep6Tv3UXcAI6Xky?format=jpg&name=900x900

Thread edited by ,jamiexo (Forum Moderator). Please do not use inappropriate language, thank you.

buttons
23-12-2020, 07:57 PM
People aren't visiting A&E or taking up hospital beds as much as last year BECAUSE of the pandemic. People are too scared to go to A&E in case they catch COVID, they don't want to go and use up resources, beds aren't being used like they usually would after routine surgeries etc because these aren't taking place as much as before, beds aren't being blocked by homeless patients because local authorities are rehousing them quicker etc. There's many many reasons today's statistics for bed usage can't be used in comparison to last years.

-:Undertaker:-
23-12-2020, 08:33 PM
People aren't visiting A&E or taking up hospital beds as much as last year BECAUSE of the pandemic. People are too scared to go to A&E in case they catch COVID, they don't want to go and use up resources, beds aren't being used like they usually would after routine surgeries etc because these aren't taking place as much as before, beds aren't being blocked by homeless patients because local authorities are rehousing them quicker etc. There's many many reasons today's statistics for bed usage can't be used in comparison to last years.

Indeed, so my point is why is the country being turned into an open prison when the NHS isn't even anywhere at capacity? The virus is so deadly and dangerous that most people aren't even aware they have it, and the hospital wards are running at under capacity for a normal December. This is all sheer insanity.

Once you start looking at the statistics out there on this, the overreaction and resulting damage to this virus is astounding.

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In a country of 70 million people.

Yupt
23-12-2020, 10:15 PM
It's NHS data being reported by the BBC, not "slander from a Twitter user".

The beds are not at max capacity, that is an outrageous falsehood for you to spread that is not backed by any statistics. They aren't even at normal capacity.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54712003





And my information comes directly from various nurses who are currently working overtime to support the incredibly strained NHS. Just this afternoon my girlfriend, who works as a paediatric nurse in London, sent me a screenshot of a text from a work group chat asking for anyone with any relevant training to be redeployed for a period of time into adult ICU wards as they are so overwhelmed.

Over in Cardiff a very close friend of mine actually works in the ICU and has spent a large amount of the past year re-training medical grads and junior nurses to be able to work with them.

Excuse me for taking the word of these people over a BBC article designed to grab readers, or a twitter user looking for retweets.

-:Undertaker:-
23-12-2020, 10:19 PM
And my information comes directly from various nurses who are currently working overtime to support the incredibly strained NHS. Just this afternoon my girlfriend, who works as a paediatric nurse in London, sent me a screenshot of a text from a work group chat asking for anyone with any relevant training to be redeployed for a period of time into adult ICU wards as they are so overwhelmed.

Over in Cardiff a very close friend of mine actually works in the ICU and has spent a large amount of the past year re-training medical grads and junior nurses to be able to work with them.

Excuse me for taking the word of these people over a BBC article designed to grab readers, or a twitter user looking for retweets.

And I have heard the complete opposite, that hospital wards are standing empty.

Therefore, in terms of policy we have to go by the NHS statistics which show that hospitals are under capacity.

dbgtz
23-12-2020, 11:57 PM
No, I haven't been listening to the tripe pumped out by the BBC or Sky News.


you just used the bbc as evidence for hospitals not being overwhelmed you cant just pick and choose lol

-:Undertaker:-
24-12-2020, 12:04 AM
you just used the bbc as evidence for hospitals not being overwhelmed you cant just pick and choose lol

I mean the commentary and scary voices they put on, you know like Kay and Beth on Sky who were then caught hugging and kissing.

Remove the propaganda layer, and look at the statistics and numbers - and what is scary is the overreaction, not the virus itself.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvRxd1_eT24

dbgtz
24-12-2020, 12:33 PM
I mean the commentary and scary voices they put on, you know like Kay and Beth on Sky who were then caught hugging and kissing.

Remove the propaganda layer, and look at the statistics and numbers - and what is scary is the overreaction, not the virus itself.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvRxd1_eT24



you cant just use half of a news report to say youre being lied to and then ignore the rest of it. the actions of sky news reporters has bugger all to do with anything i am saying

-:Undertaker:-
24-12-2020, 03:47 PM
you cant just use half of a news report to say youre being lied to and then ignore the rest of it. the actions of sky news reporters has bugger all to do with anything i am saying

You've all been free this entire time to engage with me on the figures and consequences of lockdown vs consequences of no lockdown, but all I get in response is an emotional diatribe about protecting hospitals, stopping the virus and saving lives. If someone wants to explain to me, backed by figures, as to why the country is being treated as though it were an open prison and additional cancer/heart/other deaths are worth it, I look forward to hearing such an argument.

I would remind people of some of these scientists records.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ep7Cpa3U8AArLvG?format=jpg&name=large

dbgtz
24-12-2020, 06:38 PM
You've all been free this entire time to engage with me on the figures and consequences of lockdown vs consequences of no lockdown, but all I get in response is an emotional diatribe about protecting hospitals, stopping the virus and saving lives. If someone wants to explain to me, backed by figures, as to why the country is being treated as though it were an open prison and additional cancer/heart/other deaths are worth it, I look forward to hearing such an argument.

I would remind people of some of these scientists records.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ep7Cpa3U8AArLvG?format=jpg&name=large



are you not able to read what im saying? what about my responses has been emotional? i simply asked if you read the rest of a BBC report that you quoted in a tweet to prove hospitals werent overwhelmed then you said no because you dont trust the bbc, so why would you trust that tweet to begin with?

ferguson hasnt been part of the gov corona team since may and a quick google reveals how much bollocks that image is take some initiative seriously https://theferret.scot/fact-check-neil-ferguson-covid-19-predictions/

-:Undertaker:-
24-12-2020, 06:41 PM
Again you're not talking about the actual numbers, but the BBC.

I'm not interested in whether I linked to the BBC. I'm interested in the NHS numbers the BBC quoted.

Address the fact that hospitals are under capacity for this year and how this justifies a lockdown, or don't bother replying.

dbgtz
24-12-2020, 07:27 PM
i mean many people have touched on that already but:
as stated in the same bbc report, some areas have hospitals far closer to capacity (hence why i keep asking if you even read the full report, but obviously you werent that interested!)
its not overly useful to just look at beds as a number - the "value" of a bed in a "standard" ward is not the same as one in an ICU

the trend of covid patients taking up hospital beds is positive, and this links back to my first point if certain areas are affected more than others then its not unreasonable and why these areas would be subject to higher tiers
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/C535/production/_115758405_coronavirus_hospital_bed_occupancy-nc.png

-:Undertaker:-
24-12-2020, 08:44 PM
i mean many people have touched on that already but:
as stated in the same bbc report, some areas have hospitals far closer to capacity (hence why i keep asking if you even read the full report, but obviously you werent that interested!)
its not overly useful to just look at beds as a number - the "value" of a bed in a "standard" ward is not the same as one in an ICU

Indeed, however - how do you know those small numbers of Covid patients are:

1. Occupying ICU beds rather than standard beds.
2. Occupying an ICU bed because of Covid or occupying an ICU bed with Covid.

From what we know of the death figures, most dying of this disease are very old with existing co-morbidites. We also know that in many cases, hospitals themselves are places of infection much like care homes where the opportunistic disease spreads like wildfire and heavily effects those on the edge of death from other conditions/poor health, much as the flu and pnuemonia do. The spike in hospital cases of Covid therefore doesn't always correlate to either the actual infection rate out there in the area, or the death rate that would result if the virus were allowed to burn out in that area.

To lockdown society based on these small numbers is an extreme overreaction would you not agree given the context? I can fully understand if the situation arose where hospitals had people bursting into the hallways with this disease to introduce some relief... but we just haven't had that. Nightingale hospitals were never used.


the trend of covid patients taking up hospital beds is positive, and this links back to my first point if certain areas are affected more than others then its not unreasonable and why these areas would be subject to higher tiers

It is positive and is not unusual for this time of year to see an uplift in respiratory illnesses, however cases this time around are outstripping hospitalisations/deaths by a large amount because of a range of possibilities. One argument is that the disease has already "picked off" those in extremely ill health back in the first wave, another is that natural immunity in the population is better than it was and that treatment has improved for the disease. Those scenes in Burgamo in Italy back in March are not what we are anywhere close to seeing.

GoldenMerc
24-12-2020, 09:01 PM
Just want to put this here to show how dangerous this is;

https://twitter.com/tyleroakley/status/1342208456699199488?s=20

1-1000 in US will die from Covid.

-:Undertaker:-
24-12-2020, 09:04 PM
Just want to put this here to show how dangerous this is;

https://twitter.com/tyleroakley/status/1342208456699199488?s=20

1-1000 in US will die from Covid.

What does it say at the top of the graph?

dbgtz
24-12-2020, 10:21 PM
Indeed, however - how do you know those small numbers of Covid patients are:

1. Occupying ICU beds rather than standard beds.
2. Occupying an ICU bed because of Covid or occupying an ICU bed with Covid.

From what we know of the death figures, most dying of this disease are very old with existing co-morbidites. We also know that in many cases, hospitals themselves are places of infection much like care homes where the opportunistic disease spreads like wildfire and heavily effects those on the edge of death from other conditions/poor health, much as the flu and pnuemonia do. The spike in hospital cases of Covid therefore doesn't always correlate to either the actual infection rate out there in the area, or the death rate that would result if the virus were allowed to burn out in that area.

To lockdown society based on these small numbers is an extreme overreaction would you not agree given the context? I can fully understand if the situation arose where hospitals had people bursting into the hallways with this disease to introduce some relief... but we just haven't had that. Nightingale hospitals were never used.



number of beds in icu (adults): 4123 https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/critical-care-capacity/critical-care-bed-capacity-and-urgent-operations-cancelled-2019-20-data/
number occupied by covid 19 patients: 1364 https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/current-covid-patients-icu?tab=chart&stackMode=absolute&time=2020-03-18..latest&country=~GBR

easy to see how some hospitals could be overrun. i do not agree its extreme, its called having foresight.
It is positive and is not unusual for this time of year to see an uplift in respiratory illnesses, however cases this time around are outstripping hospitalisations/deaths by a large amount because of a range of possibilities. One argument is that the disease has already "picked off" those in extremely ill health back in the first wave, another is that natural immunity in the population is better than it was and that treatment has improved for the disease. Those scenes in Burgamo in Italy back in March are not what we are anywhere close to seeing. treatment is better, but it doesn't really matter if the demand for treatment outstrips the supply

-:Undertaker:-
24-12-2020, 10:36 PM
I disagree with you that those numbers justify anywhere near the types of restrictions that are being imposed. As has been pointed out before, a normal winter flu surge in the NHS is more serious than the currency Covid numbers in hospitals, and yet we do not close the country down even when NHS beds are at 95% capacity. No work has been done weighing up the deaths (in many cases merely only delayed) by these measures vs the preventable deaths/economic damage that lockdowns perpetuate.

I have another question for the lockdown enthusiasts... given lockdowns do not stop the virus but only delay the virus spreading, if these two new mutated strains (and any others that emerge, which they will) prove to make any vaccination redundant - will you still argue for lockdowns for the next 2, 4, 8 and 12 years? A serious question given it is mutating like the flu and may well be incurable. At what point or will there ever come a point where you would accept that this virus is here to stay and we have to live with it?

dbgtz
24-12-2020, 10:49 PM
I disagree with you that those numbers justify anywhere near the types of restrictions that are being imposed. As has been pointed out before, a normal winter flu surge in the NHS is more serious than the currency Covid numbers in hospitals, and yet we do not close the country down even when NHS beds are at 95% capacity.



that's not been proven in the slightest

I have another question for the lockdown enthusiasts... given lockdowns do not stop the virus but only delay the virus spreading, if these two new mutated strains (and any others that emerge, which they will) prove to make any vaccination redundant - will you still argue for lockdowns for the next 2, 4, 8 and 12 years? A serious question given it is mutating like the flu and may well be incurable. At point or will there ever come a point where you would accept that this virus is here to stay and we have to live with it?
the flu has a vaccine which is altered twice a year, we dont just "live with it".

-:Undertaker:-
25-12-2020, 01:12 AM
that's not been proven in the slightest

We get a flu surge (in terms of NHS beds used) every year during winter with thousands of deaths resulting from it. True or false?


the flu has a vaccine which is altered twice a year, we dont just "live with it".

It does, but it is *always* behind the flu viruses which continue to mutate, that is why millions of people still die of flu around the world every year. It is quite possible that this is what could happen with Coronavirus, as we're seeing more mutations appear. If this happens, would you countenance simply living with the virus as we do with flu?

A
25-12-2020, 01:25 AM
Something had to be done in all fairness, cases are coming out of control again. I did read somewhere that they knew about this new strain in September though so why the UK Government failed to act sooner once again baffles me? It really makes no sense at all why the lockdown was lifted even though they new cases was not falling and there was a new strain?

Slightly confusing and worrying, but hope everyone stays safe out there!

-:Undertaker:-
28-12-2020, 07:17 AM
1343136840753287168

The cruelty and suffering imposed by the lockdown zealots is beyond words.

Quite honestly I think this is the most shocking and appalling thing done by our government in modern history. Beats Iraq hands down.

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