Should schools teach LGBT+ inclusive sex education?

[jamiexo]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/700387679493423185/860180633477054494/lgbtq.jpg

Topics surrounding sex education in schools has always been a widely controversial topic ranging from what should be discussed, at what age should these topics be discussed, and what resources should be available to students.

Now, there is a discussion on whether or not schools should teach LGBT+ inclusive sex education. Currently, sex-education programs do not reliably talk about sexual orientation and gender identity, and when they do, the information can be inaccurate and deeply negative. But, studies have shown that the members of the LGBT+ community are a majority of cases for things such as HIV, and other STIs.

What are your thoughts? Should schools teach LGBT+ inclusive sex education?

[-:Undertaker:-]

No, they should not. Radical left theories on how a man is really a woman, or there being 100+ genders is brainwashing.

Children go to school to learn Maths, English and real subjects. Not to have their heads filled with dangerous nonsense.

[MadameJaquack]

I really think it should be taught in schools. For a number of reasons.

1. I remember when I was in high school we had sex education lessons, which was entirely centred around heterosexual intimacy. To put it quite simply: why shouldn't people learn about LGBTQ+ sex education when we have no choice but to sit in heterosexual sex education lessons? I can only imagine what it must feel like to be, for example, homosexual and still having so much confusion about your sexuality while in school. Perhaps thinking you're too "different" or "odd" because your teachers don't even talk about the sexuality you believe you identify as. Sex education is taught in schools with the aim to make sure people are fully informed about safe sex and sexual health; so you can only imagine what the lack of information for LGBTQ+ kids could lead to.

2. Another thing I remember from school was words like "gay" being used as an insult, because certain people seem to associate homosexuality as a negative thing. It's quite funny to me how people always point out that this is a problem but refuse to see that it's likely partially caused by no one in a school environment ever speaking of the LGBTQ+ community in a positive or informative way. If it's treated as a taboo from an early age, what do you think kids will begin to think about it?

3. In terms of gender identity, I suppose you could compare it to humanities studies or religious education, most kids are taught about different cultures and different religions in school. So again, why not learn about gender identity? Whether you agree with something or not I'm a firm believe that you should at least know what you're talking about before you choose to speak on it. A lot of people base their own personal beliefs on their environment - the people they've grown up around, the things they've seen on TV, what they've learned at school. I'm not saying we need to teach all kids that they have to be accepting of everything and everyone but I think it's important that kids learn to at least seek out information to make an informed decision to form their own opinion, and know that they can have their own opinion, they don't have to adopt the thoughts of their parents or friends.

[-:Undertaker:-]

3. In terms of gender identity, I suppose you could compare it to humanities studies or religious education, most kids are taught about different cultures and different religions in school. So again, why not learn about gender identity? Whether you agree with something or not I'm a firm believe that you should at least know what you're talking about before you choose to speak on it. A lot of people base their own personal beliefs on their environment - the people they've grown up around, the things they've seen on TV, what they've learned at school. I'm not saying we need to teach all kids that they have to be accepting of everything and everyone but I think it's important that kids learn to at least seek out information to make an informed decision to form their own opinion, and know that they can have their own opinion, they don't have to adopt the thoughts of their parents or friends.

Would you be as open to teaching kids that the Earth is flat?

[MadameJaquack]

Would you be as open to teaching kids that the Earth is flat?


There's a big difference between teaching kids something that has been scientifically proven to be false and teaching kids about other communities and how to be respectful people.

[-:Undertaker:-]

There's a big difference between teaching kids something that has been scientifically proven to be false and teaching kids about other communities and how to be respectful people.

Gender identity and the belief that a man can become a woman or vice versa has no scientific basis yet you advocate teaching it to children.

And what is meant by respect? Does that mean using invented pronouns?

[MadameJaquack]

Gender identity and the belief that a man can become a woman or vice versa has no scientific basis yet you advocate teaching it to children.

And what is meant by respect? Does that mean using invented pronouns?

Well, you're slightly wrong there. There are many scientific publications investigating the biological foundation of gender identity in the areas of both social science and psychology. Yes, a big causing factor that alters how an individual may identify in terms of their gender is their surrounding environment, but it's also caused by chemicals in the brain and differing levels of hormones. The exact same way that the hormones in your body tell your brain that are, say for example, cis gender. This is something I first started studying in my psychology classes in high school so it's not exactly new.

If you want to be technical about it, the Oxford dictionary defines respect as "due regard for the feelings, wishes, or rights of others."
If we use this definition, having respect is not necessarily agreeing with something, it's acknowledging that it's part of someone's sense of self and that it's ultimately nothing to do with you. As I said in my first response to this debate, I don't expect everyone to be welcoming and accepting of everything ever, because it's just not realistic, it's human nature for people to have opposing views - as shown in our discussion right now. But I do believe that if you don't like or agree with something... just look the other way? There are people in this world that will go so far to stand against how someone feels. Whether it's gender identity, or sexuality. I think of my nan, she grew up in a household where she was told homosexuality was "disgusting", so that's what she thought her whole life. Until I told her my best friend, that she'd already met several times and got along well with, was bisexual and she realised that LGBTQ+ aren't the monsters she'd been taught they were. She still isn't comfortable with homosexuality but has very much of a "it's not affecting me and my life" approach to it. And I think that, ultimately, if you don't agree with something that's the best outlook to have. Hate and negativity will get you nowhere.

[LucyFaye]

I definitely think it should be included in school sex-ed. They're hardly going to be showing children pornographic videos or discussing intimate details...
It amazes me that the world still needs such questions, it should have been included a long while ago!

Given the evident lack of understanding still expressed from adults, there definitely needs to be widespread education about the difference between
biological sex (which is what cannot yet be changed) and gender (which is a societal construct so can definitely be chosen by the individual...)

If children are growing up with bigoted parents, they definitely need teaching that being LGBT+ is nothing to be ashamed of.
It could help teach children a bit more empathy and understanding around such issues, and help promote acceptance.

Why do some people think they're in a position that they can dictate someone else's identity, and tell them they're wrong?

(Side note - why isn't the shocked reaction coming up on these posts? Could definitely have done with them...) 8-/

[-:Undertaker:-]

Well, you're slightly wrong there. There are many scientific publications investigating the biological foundation of gender identity in the areas of both social science and psychology. Yes, a big causing factor that alters how an individual may identify in terms of their gender is their surrounding environment, but it's also caused by chemicals in the brain and differing levels of hormones. The exact same way that the hormones in your body tell your brain that are, say for example, cis gender. This is something I first started studying in my psychology classes in high school so it's not exactly new.

If you want to be technical about it, the Oxford dictionary defines respect as "due regard for the feelings, wishes, or rights of others."
If we use this definition, having respect is not necessarily agreeing with something, it's acknowledging that it's part of someone's sense of self and that it's ultimately nothing to do with you. As I said in my first response to this debate, I don't expect everyone to be welcoming and accepting of everything ever, because it's just not realistic, it's human nature for people to have opposing views - as shown in our discussion right now. But I do believe that if you don't like or agree with something... just look the other way? There are people in this world that will go so far to stand against how someone feels. Whether it's gender identity, or sexuality. I think of my nan, she grew up in a household where she was told homosexuality was "disgusting", so that's what she thought her whole life. Until I told her my best friend, that she'd already met several times and got along well with, was bisexual and she realised that LGBTQ+ aren't the monsters she'd been taught they were. She still isn't comfortable with homosexuality but has very much of a "it's not affecting me and my life" approach to it. And I think that, ultimately, if you don't agree with something that's the best outlook to have. Hate and negativity will get you nowhere.

No I am sorry, but that is not what respect is. Many of the major religions detest criticism and liberal rights - in particular Islam - but we do not bend to its will out of some vague jelly idea of respect, or at least we certainly should not if we wish to preserve a liberal pluralistic democracy. If the values of something are totally counter to those of my own or my own society, then why on earth should I be frogmarched into going along with them? I believe, as do the majority of people in this country and on the planet, that there are two genders and that the words people like you use such as 'cisgender' are pure and utter drivel. Now you have every right to believe yourself in these things, but you do not have the right to force these very strange and far-left sociological views on me or on society.


You can invent whatever gender you want and call yourself it, along with the members of your local Labour party and Twitter. But what you cannot and should not be able to do, is to demand that society at large - your employer, friends, family, customers, strangers, the law in general - bend to your minority ideas on gender and sexuality.

[lawrawrrr]

I think of my nan, she grew up in a household where she was told homosexuality was "disgusting", so that's what she thought her whole life. Until I told her my best friend, that she'd already met several times and got along well with, was bisexual and she realised that LGBTQ+ aren't the monsters she'd been taught they were. She still isn't comfortable with homosexuality but has very much of a "it's not affecting me and my life" approach to it. And I think that, ultimately, if you don't agree with something that's the best outlook to have. Hate and negativity will get you nowhere.

This story, and the just like, mentality of just focus your energy on something else, are a huge part to me as part of this debate. Yes I understand that some people will have differing opinions and that's OK, what's not OK is when you try to demean or belittle other people for having their own opinions.

Also, I firmly believe that whether you "agree" with someone's seuxality, gender identity, the way they prefer to be addressed, why not just do it and move on? If I, as a single woman, asked to be addressed as "Ms", or even chose to change my NAME, would there be the same outrage? No absolutely not people would just get on with it and change the way they refer to you out of basic levels of respect.

[LUCPIX]

I am a big believer that equality begins with the normality exercise which, for the most part, can be achieved by the development of an educational (or, realistically, societal) system on which the minorities are not only homogenised within their community, but also are capable to dismiss the existence of a segmented area on which they'll be studied/taught as though they they are the B-side of mankind

[-:Undertaker:-]

This story, and the just like, mentality of just focus your energy on something else, are a huge part to me as part of this debate. Yes I understand that some people will have differing opinions and that's OK, what's not OK is when you try to demean or belittle other people for having their own opinions.

Also, I firmly believe that whether you "agree" with someone's seuxality, gender identity, the way they prefer to be addressed, why not just do it and move on? If I, as a single woman, asked to be addressed as "Ms", or even chose to change my NAME, would there be the same outrage? No absolutely not people would just get on with it and change the way they refer to you out of basic levels of respect.

That's a totally false comparison because your name means nothing, whereas the idea of gender/sex is core to society and nature.

You demanding that I pretend you are a sex/gender other than the one you actually are, is an infringement on my rights. This notion that "respect" means going along with whatever someone else demands is also nonsense on stilts. Everyday people disagree with us and refuse to do exactly what we would like them to, as is their right. Your side of this debate uses the cloak of respect as a way to crowbar your way to people being sacked, castigated and hounded for stating biological facts and social realities. See JK Rowling as a prime example.

[FlyingJesus]

Widely accepted in the scientific world that there's a difference between gender and sex, but nope can't possibly count because it didn't USED to be the case and we should all stick with good ol' fashioned 1930s family values where no-one has choices and everyone has to be cookie-cutter material.

Interesting how you get all huffy and talk about your right to be unkind and backwards when anyone asks you to be nice but then demand that laws and society go along with your own views

[-:Undertaker:-]

Widely accepted in the scientific world that there's a difference between gender and sex, but nope can't possibly count because it didn't USED to be the case and we should all stick with good ol' fashioned 1930s family values where no-one has choices and everyone has to be cookie-cutter material.

No it isn't widely accepted that there are more than 2 genders/sexes.

The fact you're pushing for this drivel to be taught to innocent children proves you yourself know this stuff isn't widely accepted either.


Interesting how you get all huffy and talk about your right to be unkind and backwards when anyone asks you to be nice but then demand that laws and society go along with your own views

I have no idea what you're on about.

[FlyingJesus]

Interesting, it's almost as though THAT ISN'T WHAT I SAID AT ALL.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Interesting, it's almost as though THAT ISN'T WHAT I SAID AT ALL.

Would you like to tell me then exactly what it is you want to put in the minds of the nation's children?

Tell me *exactly* what though - don't just come back at me with some vapid phrases like "Love is Love" for forum likes.

[Triz]

I don't think we're really equipped to tell you what *exactly* needs to said in these lesson plans...

The point of the matter is that there are loads of young people who feel like they don't fit in because they are gay, or feel like they're a girl stuck in a boys body, and vice versa etc... Kids don't grow up learning about this until later in life, and more often than not it's by a old-timer who doesn't agree with it all, and doesn't accept it, which the kid then adopts that same mentality... but unless they've experienced it, or know a friend who is going through it, it's completely alien to them and often refuse to believe what this person is saying and claiming it to be false or that they're just out for attention etc... Whereas if it's commonly taught from a young age, kids will better understand what they/their friends or peers are going through and it won't be looked upon as a mental disability like some are claiming it to be.

Not to mention that a lot of LBGT+ people self-harm or worse due to bullying, which all comes down to a lack of knowledge and understanding. I can't begin to understand how it feels to be blind, but I can close to eyes to experience it briefly. Much like people who aren't in the LBGT+ community, they can't begin to understand what they're going through or how they feel, but they can't simply close their eyes to briefly experience it... This stuff needs to be taught for a better understanding, to ensure future LBGT+ kids aren't picked on, so they can freely open up about how they feel and not be worried about how they're going to be treated.

I don't pretend to know a lot about the LBGT+ community, but I do accept whatever choices anyone wants to make about themselves. This should be standard

[FlyingJesus]

Would you like to tell me then exactly what it is you want to put in the minds of the nation's children?

Tell me *exactly* what though - don't just come back at me with some vapid phrases like "Love is Love" for forum likes.

Why bother when you're just going to make something up for me and act like anyone who cares about being nice is only doing it to pretend because you personally don't give a damn about anyone so surely no-one else can. I said that it's widely accepted that sex and gender are two different things (because that's what was being discussed at the time and SHOCK HORROR some people actually respond to the current topic instead of going off on tangents every time they realise they're horribly and totally wrong but don't want to admit it) and you came back with an entire other argument. It's pointless, you're just really crap at debating and pull out strawman after strawman until people give up

[Kardan]

-:Undertaker:-;

How do you want teachers to ignore LGBTQ+ and pretend like it doesn't exist when we have staff and students that identify as such? It may scare you but I observed a new teacher introduce himself to his class and the first thing he asked for were students to write down their name and their pronouns... All of them did it without any of them questioning why - times have changed since when we were at school.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Why bother when you're just going to make something up for me and act like anyone who cares about being nice is only doing it to pretend because you personally don't give a damn about anyone so surely no-one else can. I said that it's widely accepted that sex and gender are two different things (because that's what was being discussed at the time and SHOCK HORROR some people actually respond to the current topic instead of going off on tangents every time they realise they're horribly and totally wrong but don't want to admit it) and you came back with an entire other argument. It's pointless, you're just really crap at debating and pull out strawman after strawman until people give up

You can never stick to the actual topic and instead just say the other person cannot debate. That's not a debate Tom. Why don't you try replying to what I asked (without parroting meaningless phrases from Stonewall) which is what exactly are you proposing to teach our children in school when it comes to LGBTXYZ+.


@-:Undertaker:- (https://habboxforum.com/member.php?u=24233);

How do you want teachers to ignore LGBTQ+ and pretend like it doesn't exist when we have staff and students that identify as such? It may scare you but I observed a new teacher introduce himself to his class and the first thing he asked for were students to write down their name and their pronouns... All of them did it without any of them questioning why - times have changed since when we were at school.

I want teachers to teach their actual subject and not indoctrinate children with lunatic fringe ideas.

You know, in my classes we actually discussed this subject from time to time and because the students knew I wasn't politically correct and wouldn't go running off to the Headmistress if they dared say something politically incorrect, they actually told me what they thought because they had my trust and confidence to the extent they would be pretty open about what they really thought. And all of them laughed at and mocked the idea of 100+ pronouns.

Let me ask you a question back. If a student said to you that the concept of pronouns was complete garbage, would you report/punish them?

[FlyingJesus]

You can never stick to the actual topic and instead just say the other person cannot debate. That's not a debate Tom.

You're right (it had to happen some time!) that isn't debate. You cannot debate with someone like you who constantly moves the goalposts and invents straw men


Why don't you try replying to what I asked (without parroting meaningless phrases from Stonewall) which is what exactly are you proposing to teach our children in school when it comes to LGBTXYZ+.

Several reasons. I am not a curriculum planner, I am not a professor in these subjects, I am not a government minister, and most importantly I never actually said I had such a plan - I just pointed out one inaccuracy in your ramblings which you entirely ignored in favour of making up things I hadn't said. Again, moving the goalposts and inventing straw men.


I want teachers to teach their actual subject

Good then let the humanities and social studies tutors do their job like they want to

[-:Undertaker:-]

FlyingJesus;

Still not been able to outline what it is you'd actually like to teach the nation's children.

It's a really simple thing I asked you to do given you've spent 2 pages arguing for it, so why can't you do it?

[FlyingJesus]

No Dan, I have not spent 2 pages arguing anything of the sort. Stop lying, stop misrepresenting me, stop making up things that have not been said at all, stop being an all round terrible and frustrating person to have around here. What I have said, as I literally explained to you before (because you can't seem to read what's put in front of you), is that you'd be wrong to suggest that it's a scientific inaccuracy to say that gender and sex are the same thing. But sure, "still not able" to do something I never attempted and never said I would AND EVEN EXPLAINED WHY IN THE LAST POST. Interesting that you as a supposed educator think that creating an entire syllabus is "really simple" and should be a requirement for anyone who thinks that a rounded education is useful.

Have you even read the last 2 pages? It's just me making the statement above and then you completely failing to respond to those words in favour of inventing things that were never said and trying to make demands of me that aren't even based on my responses.

[Kardan]

You can never stick to the actual topic and instead just say the other person cannot debate. That's not a debate Tom. Why don't you try replying to what I asked (without parroting meaningless phrases from Stonewall) which is what exactly are you proposing to teach our children in school when it comes to LGBTXYZ+.



I want teachers to teach their actual subject and not indoctrinate children with lunatic fringe ideas.

You know, in my classes we actually discussed this subject from time to time and because the students knew I wasn't politically correct and wouldn't go running off to the Headmistress if they dared say something politically incorrect, they actually told me what they thought because they had my trust and confidence to the extent they would be pretty open about what they really thought. And all of them laughed at and mocked the idea of 100+ pronouns.

Let me ask you a question back. If a student said to you that the concept of pronouns was complete garbage, would you report/punish them?

As a teacher I have a responsibility to not only teach my subject, but to also teach relationship and sex education, so these topics are inevitably going to come up and I have a duty to not ignore these topics.

At no point have I said I agree with 100+ pronouns either - but I certainly believe that there are not just 2 gender identities.

No - I wouldn't report or punish the student if they said they didn't agree with the concept of pronouns - however if a student was purposefully misgendering somebody - I would correct them and would give them an explanation of why if necessary. Although in my experience students are happy to use preferred pronouns - it's other adults that have more of a problem with it.

[-:Undertaker:-]

No Dan, I have not spent 2 pages arguing anything of the sort. Stop lying, stop misrepresenting me, stop making up things that have not been said at all, stop being an all round terrible and frustrating person to have around here. What I have said, as I literally explained to you before (because you can't seem to read what's put in front of you), is that you'd be wrong to suggest that it's a scientific inaccuracy to say that gender and sex are the same thing. But sure, "still not able" to do something I never attempted and never said I would AND EVEN EXPLAINED WHY IN THE LAST POST. Interesting that you as a supposed educator think that creating an entire syllabus is "really simple" and should be a requirement for anyone who thinks that a rounded education is useful.

Have you even read the last 2 pages? It's just me making the statement above and then you completely failing to respond to those words in favour of inventing things that were never said and trying to make demands of me that aren't even based on my responses.

You're always so predictable in that you just reply that you don't like how I debate when it's you refusing to debate. I'm not interested whether you like how I debate or not, what I am interested in is your views on this topic in what *exactly* it is that you want to teach Britain's children when it comes to gender ideology.

If you can't answer that basic question then don't bother replying again because I really don't care whether you think I'm terrible or not. It's pretty low that you're now making character judgements about me on the basis that you don't want/cannot answer a simple question. Going personal is a reflection on you, not me.


As a teacher I have a responsibility to not only teach my subject, but to also teach relationship and sex education, so these topics are inevitably going to come up and I have a duty to not ignore these topics.

At no point have I said I agree with 100+ pronouns either - but I certainly believe that there are not just 2 gender identities.

No - I wouldn't report or punish the student if they said they didn't agree with the concept of pronouns - however if a student was purposefully misgendering somebody - I would correct them and would give them an explanation of why if necessary. Although in my experience students are happy to use preferred pronouns - it's other adults that have more of a problem with it.

But it isn't your job to police what gender pronouns people choose to use. Most people believe there are only two genders as do I - by you trying to force students to use invented genders, you are violating the free speech and normal widely-held beliefs of a student. If a student decides to call another boy a boy (he/him), it is not your place or I to tell that student to use words which his own eyes and basic biology tell him are the case. A student is free to call themselves what they want, but they are *not* free to order everybody else to use these ridiculous words and ideology.

What's your explanation, "feelings"? I preferred my teachers to teach facts related to their subject - not whether Johnny was they/them or he/him. I can tell Johnny is he/him by the fact he's a boy with a boys name, a boys face and a boy's voice - teach me how the Kaiser lost World War I at the Somme, not the bleeding obvious.

[FlyingJesus]

Thing is Dan it doesn't matter what YOU want me to say, you're again ignoring everything I've actually said anyway. I haven't answered your question for a multitude of reasons that I've already laid out twice now, but again you ignore everything that HAS been said in favour of moving the goalposts and demanding something else - something I'd not only never raised, but never even come close to discussing. So sadly yes it is predictable, because every single time you completely fail to address the posts you quote.

Kindly don't tell me when I can post on my own site, you've already tried dictating what I'm allowed to say or not say and it's really not cute.