Should we introduce HIV Passes?

[-:Undertaker:-]

Should we introduce HIV passes?


https://media-s3-us-east-1.ceros.com/clear/images/2021/08/31/005a86a3d94c96efe9a0b059503bc5aa/healthpass.png?imageOpt=1

So now that the government is moving to introduce Covid-19 Passes in the name of saving the NHS and protecting others, it had me thinking. Perhaps we should also extend this to those who have HIV? The lifetime cost to the NHS of a person with HIV is estimated at £360,000 - and a yearly supply of the medication PREP costs the NHS £5,000.

In the name of saving the NHS and saving lives (because HIV still claims lives), should we introduce HIV passes? This would mean that people with HIV would be barred from socialising such as going to nightclubs and restaurants, and would face extra testing that they would have to pay for when they fly into the UK - to make sure their viral load is small and unpassable to their fellow citizens. To be eligible for entry, they would have to be undetectable on their latest test result.

For context, HIV has claimed the lives of 40 million people globally.

China already has a similar system in place for HIV where you cannot enter the country if you are HIV positive.

This debate is now open!

[tbl]

I honestly don't think the two things are comparable.

The way you catch HIV is different to Covid so it doesn't really make sense (to me) to have an HIV pass?
For sure people should disclose if they need to regarding having HIV, but I don't think there needs to be tests or loads of different countries not allowing you in if you're HIV positive. I can't imagine that someone traveling with a positive HIV result will come into contact with that many people on the daily and transmit it.

If you think there should be something in place for HIV, do you also think there should be something in place for all sexually transmitted infections/diseases?

[buttons]

In the name of saving the NHS and saving lives (because HIV still claims lives), should we introduce HIV passes? This would mean that people with HIV would be barred from socialising such as going to nightclubs and restaurants, and would face extra testing that they would have to pay for when they fly into the UK - to make sure their viral load is small and unpassable to their fellow citizens. To be eligible for entry, they would have to be undetectable on their latest test result.
I think you should research how HIV is transmitted. You're not going to get it sitting next to someone in a restaurant or dancing with them in a nightclub. This is just embarrassing.

[FlyingJesus]

Imagine being this stupid and hateful just to try proving a point that you're constantly wrong about. This isn't even a debate, the clear answer is "no" because you don't transmit HIV by going into public social places and there would be absolutely no benefit to this scheme.

SuPeR eDgY though well done on that.

[Triz]

I mean if you're going to start getting HIV passes, I'll need a Cold sore pass, which is a form of herpes and far more contagious than HIV since HIV can only be transmitted though sexual activities or sharing needles. Whereas cold sores can be passed over by physical contact with it when it's present.

but yes, lets ban everyone with some form of virus, if you have the flu, you'll be on house arrest for 14 days... got hay fever? I'm afraid you'll be confined to your house during the summer period.

[-:Undertaker:-]

It sounds to me like a lot of you don't care about supporting "our NHS".

Even if these measures saved just one life, it would surely be worth it. It's only showing a QR code, what's the big problem?


but yes, lets ban everyone with some form of virus, if you have the flu, you'll be on house arrest for 14 days... got hay fever? I'm afraid you'll be confined to your house during the summer period.

Totally agreed. In fact, personally I don't think people should even be allowed outside their houses anymore. It's far too dangerous. What if they slip and fall? How will the NHS cope? It's just selfish behaviour that people with HIV and even mild viruses even think they should be allowed to participate in civil society.

[FlyingJesus]

It wouldn't save any lives, because you don't catch HIV from being near people who have it. Complete false equivalence, possibly your worst attempt yet

[-:Undertaker:-]

It wouldn't save any lives, because you don't catch HIV from being near people who have it. Complete false equivalence, possibly your worst attempt yet

HIV spreads through needle usage and unprotected sex, most of which derives from the nightclub industry/drinking.

HIV Passports to get into a nightclub or bar would eliminate this possibility because anyone with detectable HIV wouldn't be allowed in. Think of our NHS.

[FlyingJesus]

Yeah, no. "Most" unprotected sex and drug taking does not occur in nightclubs, what did I tell you about lies? You're not doing well here at all, just embarrassing yourself by being obtuse and failing at sarcasm.

[_spirit]

I think this is absolutely a horrible thread to start with, covid and hiv are two complete different things, yes hiv can be transmitted by needs or sex, drugs or if someone is bleeding and they have hiv and it goes into someone’s open cut, but overall you are targeting people by even suggesting this. Because how do you know the bartender for example does not have hiv? If that’s the case and what your putting forward they would not be able to work, to me this thread is pointless and also discrimination people and I don’t like that at all, I don’t even feel this needs to be debated.

[_spirit]

Also to follow on from my post above.

"In the UK HIV is a disability under the Equality Act 2010 and as a result people living with HIV are protected from discrimination. Since 2001 there have been criminal prosecutions for transmission of HIV in England and Wales under the Offences Against the Persons Act (1861)."

https://www.nat.org.uk/sites/default/files/publications/Jun_16_Tackling_HIV_Stigma.pdf

[-:Undertaker:-]

I think this is absolutely a horrible thread to start with, covid and hiv are two complete different things, yes hiv can be transmitted by needs or sex, drugs or if someone is bleeding and they have hiv and it goes into someone’s open cut, but overall you are targeting people by even suggesting this. Because how do you know the bartender for example does not have hiv? If that’s the case and what your putting forward they would not be able to work, to me this thread is pointless and also discrimination people and I don’t like that at all, I don’t even feel this needs to be debated.

The government tonight has just made it so that thousands of NHS staff are required to be vaccinated or will lose their jobs.

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Why is discrimination against HIV not okay but discrimination against those who do not want a Covid-19 vaccine is okay?

[_spirit]

The government tonight has just made it so that thousands of NHS staff are required to be vaccinated or will lose their jobs.

1470822969010184192

Why is discrimination against HIV not okay but discrimination against those who do not want a Covid-19 vaccine is okay?

Maybe because hiv is not a virus and mutating that fast killing people around the world, hiv has been around for years and the is treatment for people living with it. again what does COVID-19 HAVE ANYTHING to do with hiv? Honestly just because you did not win the other argument you was trying to have you have now started a thread over hiv honestly dan you're just embarrassing yourself and making yourself look not educated.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Maybe because hiv is not a virus and mutating that fast killing people around the world, hiv has been around for years and the is treatment for people living with it. again what does COVID-19 HAVE ANYTHING to do with hiv? Honestly just because you did not win the other argument you was trying to have you have now started a thread over hiv honestly dan you're just embarrassing yourself and making yourself look not educated.

HIV costs the NHS £360,000 over the course of a lifetime for treatment. Last year there were 700,000 deaths globally due to HIV. Don't these people matter?

How can you not care about our wonderful NHS spending all this money when all I'm asking for is to show a harmless QR code? By limiting access of people who are HIV+ to nightclubs and bars, we therefore minimise the spread of HIV (well, apparently - because that's the argument for Covid-19 passes even though there's zero evidence to show that a QR code on your phone stops an endemic virus mutating and spreading).

[_spirit]

HIV costs the NHS £360,000 over the course of a lifetime for treatment. Last year there were 700,000 deaths globally due to HIV. Don't these people matter?

How can you not care about our wonderful NHS spending all this money when all I'm asking for is to show a harmless QR code?

Because I don't see the need of people needing to have a hiv pass, hiv is not actually bad to live with at all and also again has nothing at all to do with covid-19, anyway i don't even know why we are debating this as you full well know this will never be implemented in the UK.

[Reece.]

HIV isn't overwhelming the NHS like COVID-19, this new virus is spreading rappidly, HIV isn't as much, also people don't die with HIV like COVID is. Why should passes be introduced for it? It really shouldn't.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Because I don't see the need of people needing to have a hiv pass, hiv is not actually bad to live with at all and also again has nothing at all to do with covid-19, anyway i don't even know why we are debating this as you full well know this will never be implemented in the UK.

Well I never thought people would be discriminated against based on their medical status in Britain either but look where we are tonight.


HIV isn't overwhelming the NHS like COVID-19, this new virus is spreading rappidly, HIV isn't as much, also people don't die with HIV like COVID is. Why should passes be introduced for it? It really shouldn't.

Covid-19 isn't overwhelming the NHS either (see below), so why have we now got Covid-19 passes?

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[_spirit]

Well I never thought people would be discriminated against based on their medical status in Britain either but look where we are tonight.



Covid-19 isn't overwhelming the NHS either (see below), so why have we now got Covid-19 passes?

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tbh all nhs workers are always being injected with other vaccines to protect them and the patients they work with, so yes in a way I do actually agree that this should be the case otherwise covid is just going to keep spreading around the hospitals is it not?

[-:Undertaker:-]

tbh all nhs workers are always being injected with other vaccines to protect them and the patients they work with, so yes in a way I do actually agree that this should be the case otherwise

Your vaccination status makes no difference in whether you can catch and then spread Covid-19.

90%+ of the British population has had two vaccines, and the virus continues to spread regardless of vaccination status.

If the NHS is struggling which the government claims but the numbers say otherwise (see above), why would you then sack thousands of nurses and doctors?


covid is just going to keep spreading around the hospitals is it not?

Finally someone gets it, yes. This is correct, from now and in perpetuity.

[_spirit]

Your vaccination status makes no difference in whether you can catch and then spread Covid-19.

90%+ of the British population has had two vaccines, and the virus continues to spread regardless of vaccination status.

If the NHS is struggling which the government claims but the numbers say otherwise (see above), why would you then sack thousands of nurses and doctors?



Finally someone gets it, yes. This is correct, from now and in perpetuity.

No I'm not agreeing with you, I'm saying its been proven regardless your vaccine status yes you can catch covid still, but not as bad as you would get it if not vaccinated.

[-:Undertaker:-]

No I'm not agreeing with you, I'm saying its been proven regardless your vaccine status yes you can catch covid still, but not as bad as you would get it if not vaccinated.

So unvaccinated healthcare staff aren't making any difference in spreading it around hospitals then, are they?

Because as you've just said yourself you can catch and spread it regardless of vaccination status.

[_spirit]

So unvaccinated healthcare staff aren't making any difference in spreading it around hospitals then, are they?

Because as you've just said yourself you can catch and spread it regardless of vaccination status.

I've said if you actually read being vaccinated protects you a lot more from becoming seriously ill or in fact even dying, I don't see the issue with NHS staff needing to be vaccinated because at the end of the day they have to deal with seriously sick patients and this just helps protect the patients more and also protects all the staff that work in the NHS. But again COVID has nothing to do with HIV, I just feel you just wanted to create another thread and dedicate it all to COVID.

[-:Undertaker:-]

I've said if you actually read being vaccinated protects you a lot more from becoming seriously ill or in fact even dying, I don't see the issue with NHS staff needing to be vaccinated because at the end of the day they have to deal with seriously sick patients and this just helps protect the patients more

But you've not told me how it helps protect the patients? The logic of this line of argument doesn't add up.

If vaccinated and unvaccinated can both spread the virus and thus into hospitals, why would you then want to sack the unvaccinated and create a staff shortage?

[_spirit]

But you've not told me how it helps protect the patients? The logic of this line of argument doesn't add up.

You're just being stupid Dan you know how it helps to protect patients.



If vaccinated and unvaccinated can both spread the virus and thus into hospitals, why would you then want to sack the unvaccinated and create a staff shortage?

And that's not the public's choice it's the governments so I have no idea how you can even ask this question or argue it.

[-:Undertaker:-]

You're just being stupid Dan you know how it helps to protect patients.

If a patient is vaccinated then yes it does help protect the patient themselves, yes.

What I am asking you is, how does sacking NHS staff who are unvaccinated help protect patients (as you seem to claim) when both vaccinated/unvaccinated NHS staff can spread it?

Genuine question I would like a logical explanation for before we go supporting sacking thousands of essential workers on low incomes.

[_spirit]

If a patient is vaccinated then yes it does help protect the patient themselves, yes.

What I am asking you is, how does sacking NHS staff who are unvaccinated help protect patients (as you seem to claim) when both vaccinated/unvaccinated NHS staff can spread it?

Genuine question I would like a logical explanation for before we go supporting sacking thousands of essential workers on low incomes.

"The coronavirus vaccines help your body make antibodies that recognise this spike protein and can then fight off the virus. The vaccines contain ingredients that give your body instructions to produce the spike protein, using the virus' genetic code.

Then, your body makes antibodies that can recognise the spike protein on the coronavirus if it enters your body and help fight it off. This means that if you choose to take a vaccine, you are less likely to get severely sick if you encounter the coronavirus."

Actual information oh wait.... off the NHS website

https://www.nhsinform.scot/covid-19-vaccine/the-vaccines/how-the-vaccines-work#:~:text=The%20coronavirus%20vaccines%20help%2 0your,using%20the%20virus'%20genetic%20code.

And actually at a matter of fact other NHS workers who have had the vaccine want their co-workers to have it and again the NHS have always had injections and vaccines to protect them so what is the difference over a vaccine that can potentially stop you from dying

[-:Undertaker:-]

"The coronavirus vaccines help your body make antibodies that recognise this spike protein and can then fight off the virus. The vaccines contain ingredients that give your body instructions to produce the spike protein, using the virus' genetic code."

Actual information oh wait.... off the NHS website

https://www.nhsinform.scot/covid-19-vaccine/the-vaccines/how-the-vaccines-work#:~:text=The%20coronavirus%20vaccines%20help%2 0your,using%20the%20virus'%20genetic%20code.

You're not getting me.

I'm not arguing on the rights or wrongs of the protection the vaccine offers to the person who has the vaccine. We know it broadly works.

I am asking why an unvaccinated nurse treating you is somehow a danger to you when she can spread it just as easily as a vaccinated nurse?

[_spirit]

You're not getting me.

I'm not arguing on the rights or wrongs of the protection the vaccine offers to the person who has the vaccine. We know it broadly works.

I am asking why an unvaccinated nurse treating you is somehow a danger to you when she can spread it just as easily as a vaccinated nurse?

https://twitter.com/DrTomFrieden/status/1444031518146535424?s=20

https://twitter.com/DrTomFrieden/status/1470834779641815044?s=20


"However, a vaccinated person is less likely to get COVID in the first instance, is less contagious, and is contagious for a shorter time, resulting in significantly less spread of the virus through a highly vaccinated community.

This, combined with the well-known ability of vaccines to keep people out of hospital and ICU, makes them the most important part of the health response in the near future."

https://theconversation.com/no-vaccinated-people-are-not-just-as-infectious-as-unvaccinated-people-if-they-get-covid-171302

[-:Undertaker:-]

Tweet

If the vaccine works then why does it matter if you come into contact with if from either a vaccinated or an unvaccinated person? Illogical.

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Israel, a country vaccinated up to its eyeballs, is now on its 4th jab.

Has nothing to do with the unvaccinated - everything is to do with the fact that this virus cannot be beaten and we'll have to live with it.

[FlyingJesus]

So clearly this thread is not and has never been about HIV, it's just more of Dan spreading his usual dangerous brand of freedumb. No need for it, not happening.



Nobody has ever claimed that vaccines are 100% effective, the whole point is to slow transmission and make this all manageable. To anyone reading: please do get vaccinated, and if you have concerns then do actual research and don't listen to hateful people with an agenda who want you to act in ways that are damaging to yourself and society at large.