Should the school system be revised?

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Should the schooling system be revised?

I won't do much of an intro to this debate, I'll instead link the video below.
This debate isn't to offer up a solution, but rather whether or not the schooling system is flawed, however you're free to offer up solutions if you see fit.

What are your views, does the current schooling system work, or can it be better?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqTTojTija8

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THIS DEBATE ENDS ON THE 4th MAY


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This debate is now open!

I’m not watching the video so no idea

Post edited by Sectional (Forum Manager): Please DO NOT post pointlessly, if you have nothing to add to the debate, then do not post

Attempted to watch the clip, but couldn't stomach it. Its pure trash and just geared up so people can nod smugly about the opinions they already hold. It presents no real evidence, no valid suggestions or what should change and takes no discernible position other than "Stuff bad, I like the sound of my own voice".

Its also worth pointing the quote attributed to Einstein almost certainly was never said by him ( https://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/04/06/fish-climb/ ) and definitely wasn't something he made up. For some reason people just love attributing random stuff to Einstein in the hope it gives it extra credence.

As such i'm going to ignore the video almost entirely and just go back to the question.

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Should the school system be revised?

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To answer that, I think its probably worth setting out some assumptions on;

1. Which school system we are talking about?
2. What the objective of a school system is?
3. Where we think the current system are failing
4. What we think would be better.

So for 1. Which school system are we talking about?

I'm going to guess by the dodgy emotional appeals and fact the speaker appears unaware there is world outside of america - its american? Not being one, I can't really speak to their school system so will focus on the UK instead.

2.Whats a school system trying to do.

I'm going to take this as referring to primary/secondary level education - and as such in my view the goal is to provide all students with a standard level of general knowledge, experience and mental tooling they can build on in order to make their way in life. Ie. Reading/writing, basic maths and a solid general foundation of history, geography and general cultural knowledge (English lit & similar).
In addition to the foundational knowledge, it's also a time where people learn how to form friendships, build relationships, work in teams and deal with a variety of life situations (pleasant and unpleasant) .

3. Where is the current system failing

So what are some common complaints;

3.a) Beings stuck listing to someone talk isn't a great way to learn for a lot of people (Different people find different methods of learning better).

I think this is valid, but without resourcing education massively more than we do, not an easy one to solve.

3.b)Testing/exams are bad and a poor judge of real aptitude.

My counter to this is, without it, how can you tell if a school is managing to do its job or not. You clearly needed some method of judging whether a given school is imparting what it needs to, else how can u judge which are failing in the duties/need help & which are excelling.

3.c)It kills creatively and turns us in to robots.

Don't really get this one. Yea, some stuff is rather dull and doesn't require a huge amount of creativity to do. The same is true in life, learning how to power through "dull" activities is a life skill. Being able to do "none-creative work" equally has no effect on preventing people from being creative. It could even be argued, it instead teach people to be "creative" in how they work around these types of problem. Learning to manage your emotions, focus, willpower etc are all valuable skills, even if how these are gained from school isn't in a very fun way.

Should school be made more "fun"? maybe - but if so, can that be done without losing the key aspects its trying to impact. As much as someone may not like learning them at the time, being able to read, do maths and similar are pretty valuable. Losing that to make the experience more fun, its hurting people long term, far much than putting up with the current experince.

3.d) People still come out of school missing the skills they were meant to gain.

This is think is the killer one - and may well be driven by point 1.

• Some skills just aren't taught - managing finances is one often cited - and would likely help a lot of people if they were
• Some people struggle with the material - and either need more help or a different approach to learning it
• Some people are lazy and none engaged & thus don't pay attention.

3.e)Homework
This one i actually agree with - if we want kids to learn to work on their own, set time aside in a school day to do this work. Expecting people to do additional "work" outside of school makes no real sense. Its a burden on teachers as much as it is the kids, and interrupt the none-school based learning time, which i think is equally important.

4. So - I've listed what i think school is meant to achieve & a few key issues with how it does this. This leads to the point, if we're advocating reform - what would that reform actually entail.

• Standardised testing - This I think is a necessary evil. If we accept to goal of education to impart a specific set of knowledge & skills, then measuring if these skills have been gained is needed to ensure people don't miss out. Vs attempting to set rote mechanisms for teaching - adding in certain tests at key checkpoints doesn't feel like to much of a burden.
  That said, I do think the way we test needs to be focused around how the skills being imparted are used - as a way of preventing "teaching to the test" to the extent - even if someone does - your still getting something of general-purpose use out the end.
  
• Teaching methods. So long as we have high pupil per teacher counts, i don't think there is an easy change here. Leveraging technology i do think can help - not replacing a teacher, but instead allowing them to manage a class is a more asynchronous manor. Currently, given instruction comes direct from the teacher an entire class needs to be on approximately the same page. Having a digital set of material/information on the other hand, lets people skip ahead, or slow down as needed - with the teacher then focusing more on providing 1 to 1 help as required, vs just reading things out and writing on a board. I do think live face-to-face instruction has a place tho, enthusiasms shines through and being able to mix in live/interactive aspects are key.
  
• Homework - this I'd just cancel. There's a lot of debate on the merits of it, and how it effects educational achievement - none of which is conclusive. That said - in my view testing is to benchmark whether knowledge/key-skills are being imparted effectively during school - the competitive aspect is meaningless (Seriously no has cares what grades you got a few years out of school anyway) and isn't a goal in and of itself, thus feels like something worth dropping straight up. This frees up peoples time for other activities, creative or otherwise.
  
• Engagement/Fun - this I don't think there is an easy solution to. Some people don't find real motivation till they find their passion - and when they do, some even go back and learn what they missed first time. There's nothing a school system can really do to solve this, beyond try and get as much info/skill to stick in peoples heads as they can. How interesting something is, needs to be balanced with how well it communicates necessary information - obvious getting people to "learn" is much easier with peoples attention, so i think this is something that should be focused on - an engaging teacher often makes all the difference. How this can be done within existing budgets tho (teachers are already overworked/underpaid is difficult) - the real solution here is significant funding increases, giving much lower pupil to teacher ratios & a better education experience across the board.

So in answer to the question: Reform the school system? Yes.

But don't throw away what we have - build on it.

We need to leverage technology better to create more engaging content as well as to allow more flexibility for a class to have students with differing affinities to a subject. You don't want to hold the forerunners back to the level of those who struggle, or push those struggling so far they are forced to give up.

We need better funding to provide better pupil/staff ratios, better tooling/training for staff and ensuring they're not so burnt out they just end up doing the bare minimum.

Education is very much the equivalent of a country "planting the tree who's shade they will never see". Investment in it is critical as its what creates the foundation of tomorrow being better than today. This requires society as a whole to step back and take the long view on our priorities - but in my view this is something we should do, and this is an area worth reforming - but carefully and taking direction from those on the front line - not just a governmental flavour of the day overall so they can say they did something, but a real cross-party plan of building a better future for everyone.

P.S. I wish i could get back the 3 minutes i wasted trying to watch that clip.

Wow, honestly thought no one would be entering this debate, as I feared due to it being a debate that you can't type up in a matter of seconds.
Then a few days before the deadline, you whack out what has to be the greatest reply to a debate I've witnessed to date.

I thoroughly enjoyed reading that so thank you! I'm not sure if you have kids or not, but I feel you're either a teacher or you have kids.. Either that or you seem to remember a lot more than I do about the schooling system!

I think I'd have to agree on every point you've made, I hated the standardised tests, their multiple choice for a start so technically (and I'm sure it's happened) someone could score a higher percentage than you by simply guessing. However you're right, we need to bite the bullet on that one since it's the only way for schools to ensure they're on somewhat of the right track.

Homework was always one I've never agreed with, firstly kids don't want to pay attention half the time when they're at school, let alone when they're at home in their own time. Heck if my boss gave me "homework" after I've clocked out, I'd tell him to do one, or ask how much he's gonna be paying me lol.

100% agree that technology needs to play a larger role in schools - As I said, I'm not sure on what sort of technology they've brought in within the last 12-13 years or so, but I think definitely some form of online learning where students can learn at their own pace is needed, then as you said, the teacher can then offer 1-2-1 help at different levels to each individual student. I know they offered something similar like that when I was at school, but if I remember correctly, I believe that was maths, which didn't work because we didn't have access to a PC in maths class, so the teacher could never help you 1-2-1 on anything you didn't understand. I guess PC's were expensive back then, so you had to wait until you got home to do that, or in ICT. (or perhaps that online learning was the homework we got given, I can't remember)

I do think they need to work out early on what methods of learning each student learns best with. For example I'm best suited for kinaesthetic learning, you stick me in a room with 20 other pupils and start trying to teach me by verbal communication only, at the pace that the teacher sets, you won't teach me much. However you start implementing things so that I get involved, even something as simple as using objects when trying to teach maths, then I'll learn a lot quicker along with potentially having more fun than listening to a monotone teacher who sounds like they're reading a dull book.

Apologies though, can't refund you those 3 minutes haha.

Edit:

Forgot to mention that I do think it's important to teach kids about finances, perhaps mortgages, taxes, pension etc... Heck I'm 27 and I still don't fully understand pensions.

A few points:

Homework is really important. There is not enough contact time in schools to teach a whole course with an appropriate level of practice without doing any work at home. If you want students to be doing 'homework' at home, then you'll be extending the school day to go past 3pm.

Getting students to work at their own pace on a computer and have a teacher work with students 1 on 1 when they get stuck will never work. Most students struggle to work without clear guidance about what they should be doing and even if all students were clear what they should be doing, and all students were actually doing the work - having students on 30 different tasks with multiple students needing help at once is not an effective way to teach.

Cheers, Sectional - I do think the idea of having to watch a video clip likely put a lot of people off (Much prefer skimming some text as can work at own pace).
I've worked adjacent to educational sector, so know a fair few people working in it + some work with the various MOOC software packages :p

Honestly most education software sucks, theres no really all that much money in it - and as its generally seen as a big purchase, most places end up going in to one of the 2 or 3 creaky old enterprise solutions via centralised purchasing (as they afford the team of sales guys and spend 3 months filling out tender documents) rather than any of the smaller companies trying to do something a bit more innovative/modern.

I def feel there is a massive gulf between the software capabilities behind most modern web platforms and what people use today in class rooms. Given the sudden mass switch to distance learning across the globe though, suspect could be a bit of a boom in that area. Lots of people who've never tried to teach remote, having to "just have a go", and no time to buy in to a multi-million pound 10 year deal with enterprise provider, so the more SaaS like solutions may be getting more of a looking on a teacher by teacher basis.

Not sold on the "remote teaching" as the idea future - i still put a lot of weight on face to face time with teaching - but i def think the approach may well add a few new tools & ideas to current approach to teaching, that can supplement how its done currently.

Re: learning styles - agree, i think smaller classes & maybe handing over some of the board filling type work to technology, can hopefully free teachers to focus a bit more on present martial in more engaging ways, plus catering to individual needs a bit better. Currently limitations on time, means teachers are forced to pretty much focus on the average, so "most" people at least gain what they need, even if a number of people at the edges end up missing out.

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Apologies though, can't refund you those 3 minutes haha.

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No worries :p Having a good moan helped with that already.

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Homework is really important. There is not enough contact time in schools to teach a whole course with an appropriate level of practice without doing any work at home. If you want students to be doing 'homework' at home, then you'll be extending the school day to go past 3pm.

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Any chance you could expand on why you don't think a course could be taught successfully within standard school hours? My view here is more around the amount of "dead" time having to work at a fixed pace requires - which if better optimised could make the hours that are there a good bit more productive. For example if i'm good at English, but suck at maths - there is no point me spending a few hours a day looking at stuff i understand already, and much more value in focusing on the areas i struggle.

Its worth noting, often primary education in the UK school system is delivered by 1 teacher covering multiple subject (Verses secondary school, which has specialised teachers for each subject) - so at primary level, splitting subjects isn't impossible. Current requirements (ofsted & similar) already require teachers to basically have full, detailed lesson plans for the year as well as individual reporting on each students, so wouldn't actually add as much of a planning overhead as you'd think. Tho would need careful scheduling so as to be able to deliver primary content to the group at once - rather than them repeating the same thing to each student.

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Getting students to work at their own pace on a computer and have a teacher work with students 1 on 1 when they get stuck will never work. Most students struggle to work without clear guidance about what they should be doing and even if all students were clear what they should be doing, and all students were actually doing the work - having students on 30 different tasks with multiple students needing help at once is not an effective way to teach.

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I guess I'd contrast your homework point here, ie. if they are expected to follow instructions & complete work outside of school hours - surely they should be able to do the same thing within school hours using a PC. I'd count learning to self-learn and deal with open ended requirements is a worthwhile skill to learn - even if they all need a lot of individual help.

I think its also worth noting - even without a software lead "class" system, students will need help all the time anyway - even if focused on one subject. For classes of 30 in the UK, usually 1 or 2 teaching assistants are also employed to help the teacher manage this. I think the software would just be another tool in helping out with this - but one with a much greater capability to keep track of and support leaning in a massively parallel way (it doesn't care if its one kid or a million fundamentally).

Granted this does all sit on the premise that the teaching software is good, and fundamentally most of it in use right now is terrible.

All that said, I'm not a teacher - closest I've got is doing some talks, demos and training for adults - never actually school age kids (though i know/work with a good few people who do), so you may well have direct experience that i'm lacking in the regard.

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Originally Posted by segfault

Cheers, Sectional - I do think the idea of having to watch a video clip likely put a lot of people off (Much prefer skimming some text as can work at own pace).
I've worked adjacent to educational sector, so know a fair few people working in it + some work with the various MOOC software packages :p

Honestly most education software sucks, theres no really all that much money in it - and as its generally seen as a big purchase, most places end up going in to one of the 2 or 3 creaky old enterprise solutions via centralised purchasing (as they afford the team of sales guys and spend 3 months filling out tender documents) rather than any of the smaller companies trying to do something a bit more innovative/modern.

I def feel there is a massive gulf between the software capabilities behind most modern web platforms and what people use today in class rooms. Given the sudden mass switch to distance learning across the globe though, suspect could be a bit of a boom in that area. Lots of people who've never tried to teach remote, having to "just have a go", and no time to buy in to a multi-million pound 10 year deal with enterprise provider, so the more SaaS like solutions may be getting more of a looking on a teacher by teacher basis.

Not sold on the "remote teaching" as the idea future - i still put a lot of weight on face to face time with teaching - but i def think the approach may well add a few new tools & ideas to current approach to teaching, that can supplement how its done currently.

Re: learning styles - agree, i think smaller classes & maybe handing over some of the board filling type work to technology, can hopefully free teachers to focus a bit more on present martial in more engaging ways, plus catering to individual needs a bit better. Currently limitations on time, means teachers are forced to pretty much focus on the average, so "most" people at least gain what they need, even if a number of people at the edges end up missing out.


No worries :p Having a good moan helped with that already.




Any chance you could expand on why you don't think a course could be taught successfully within standard school hours? My view here is more around the amount of "dead" time having to work at a fixed pace requires - which if better optimised could make the hours that are there a good bit more productive. For example if i'm good at English, but suck at maths - there is no point me spending a few hours a day looking at stuff i understand already, and much more value in focusing on the areas i struggle.

Its worth noting, often primary education in the UK school system is delivered by 1 teacher covering multiple subject (Verses secondary school, which has specialised teachers for each subject) - so at primary level, splitting subjects isn't impossible. Current requirements (ofsted & similar) already require teachers to basically have full, detailed lesson plans for the year as well as individual reporting on each students, so wouldn't actually add as much of a planning overhead as you'd think. Tho would need careful scheduling so as to be able to deliver primary content to the group at once - rather than them repeating the same thing to each student.



I guess I'd contrast your homework point here, ie. if they are expected to follow instructions & complete work outside of school hours - surely they should be able to do the same thing within school hours using a PC. I'd count learning to self-learn and deal with open ended requirements is a worthwhile skill to learn - even if they all need a lot of individual help.

I think its also worth noting - even without a software lead "class" system, students will need help all the time anyway - even if focused on one subject. For classes of 30 in the UK, usually 1 or 2 teaching assistants are also employed to help the teacher manage this. I think the software would just be another tool in helping out with this - but one with a much greater capability to keep track of and support leaning in a massively parallel way (it doesn't care if its one kid or a million fundamentally).

Granted this does all sit on the premise that the teaching software is good, and fundamentally most of it in use right now is terrible.

All that said, I'm not a teacher - closest I've got is doing some talks, demos and training for adults - never actually school age kids (though i know/work with a good few people who do), so you may well have direct experience that i'm lacking in the regard.

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In a normal school system with hundreds of students, it is impossible to individualise students timetables - so having a student that is good at English and bad at maths having more maths lessons simply does not work, even though in an ideal world, that would be great.

The reason for not being able to teach the course perfectly within school time is that there is simply too much work. Since GCSEs and A Levels were made harder a few years ago, the amount of content and the difficulty of the content has increased massively. In some topics there are students at 16 learning what I did in my second year of university when I was 20.

Trusting students with technology simply does not work. Instead of spending your time helping students with their work, you will be spending time getting students to stop going on YouTube / stop taking photos of other students / stop going on games etc.

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Originally Posted by Kardan

In a normal school system with hundreds of students, it is impossible to individualise students timetables - so having a student that is good at English and bad at maths having more maths lessons simply does not work, even though in an ideal world, that would be great.

The reason for not being able to teach the course perfectly within school time is that there is simply too much work. Since GCSEs and A Levels were made harder a few years ago, the amount of content and the difficulty of the content has increased massively. In some topics there are students at 16 learning what I did in my second year of university when I was 20.

Trusting students with technology simply does not work. Instead of spending your time helping students with their work, you will be spending time getting students to stop going on YouTube / stop taking photos of other students / stop going on games etc.

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out of curiosity what are they learning at gcse that you learned at uni

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Originally Posted by dbgtz

out of curiosity what are they learning at gcse that you learned at uni

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Use Kuratowski’s Theorem to determine the planarity of graphs.
Recognise and find isomorphism between graphs.
Refine network flow problems including using nodes of restricted capacity.

Essentially a lot of discrete mathematics has been brought down from university to further maths A-Level now.