SNP threatening to hold an illegal 2nd referendum

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23-01-2021, 07:57 PM
-:Undertaker:-

SNP threatening to hold an illegal 2nd referendum

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ence-vote.html

SNP vows to hold an illegal 2nd referendum

Amid failing schools and British army having to help with vaccinations, Nicola Sturgeon launches 2nd try for independence

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/...0G8wfMzUc.jpeg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daily Mail

The SNP will tell Boris Johnson he will need to take legal action if he wants to stop a second Scottish independence vote as it revealed its 'roadmap to a referendum'.

The Scottish Government's Constitution Secretary Mike Russell will present the 11-point document to the party's policy forum on Sunday.

It says a 'legal referendum' will be held after the pandemic if there is a pro-independence majority following May's election.

The roadmap states any attempt by the UK Government to challenge the legality of the referendum in the courts will be 'vigorously opposed'.

A Section 30 order - part of the Scotland Act 1998 which allows Holyrood to pass laws normally reserved to Westminster - was granted by the UK Government ahead of the 2014 independence referendum.

Mr Russell says the UK Government could either agree that Holyrood already has the power to hold a second referendum or agree to a Section 30 order - something he said would put the question of legality 'beyond any doubt'.

Boris Johnson has repeatedly stated his opposition to a second independence referendum.

Scottish Conservative leader Douglas Ross tweeted: 'When 100% of our focus should be on recovering from the pandemic, the SNP are charging ahead with plans for another referendum.

'We won't let them get their way.'

Responding to the SNP's document, the UK Government said the issue of Scottish independence had been settled 'decisively' in 2014.

I cannot stand this woman.

You HAD your referendum in 2014 and you LOST.

Luckily, she has no more power to hold a referendum than I have to hold one.

What I can see happening is, she'll (rightly) be denied a Section 30 by the government and will hold a mickey mouse referendum anyway in which her supporters will vote and the rest of Scotland will simply boycott given its illegality. That'll further split the country down the middle, and will embarrass everyone in Britain not just Scots that we've got some lunatic up north holding referendums that aren't worth the paper they're written on.

I was going to say, time we told this harridan "No" but then Scots did in 2014 and she just totally ignored them anyway.

Thoughts?
23-01-2021, 08:30 PM
Mikey

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Seems that Yes is more in favour than no and there seems to be support for a second Scottish independence referendum in the polls at the moment.

What’s the harm of having another referendum if people are in favour of it? :)
23-01-2021, 08:49 PM
-:Undertaker:-

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikey

What’s the harm of having another referendum if people are in favour of it? :)

Because you can't keep re-running referendums until you get the answer you want. What you quoted are just polls, and polls change all the time - we have a concrete result from 2014 that was "once in a generation" that ought to be respected. What's the point of Scots voting in an important event like 2014 only to be ignored? I mean, if we're to follow the logic of polling - if the next set of polls change again to favour No, should we then cancel the second referendum?

Ironically, this woman spends 90% of her time claiming Scotland is being "ignored" when she proposes to ignore the biggest vote in Scottish history.
23-01-2021, 09:06 PM
Mikey

Quote:

Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Because you can't keep re-running referendums until you get the answer you want. What you quoted are just polls, and polls change all the time - we have a concrete result from 2014 that was "once in a generation" that ought to be respected. What's the point of Scots voting in an important event like 2014 only to be ignored? I mean, if we're to follow the logic of polling - if the next set of polls change again to favour No, should we then cancel the second referendum? Ironically, this woman spends 90% of her time claiming Scotland is being "ignored" when she proposes to ignore the biggest vote in Scottish history.

Yes polls can change but over 20 consecutive polls, it shows that those who were polled in each of those polls were in favour of Scottish independence. The Scottish people should be able to change their mind and be able to vote again, whether that decision is a Yes or No vote.

Especially as the Scottish voters were told that if they remained in the UK then they would remain in the EU, which obviously never happened.

I was very much on the No side previously but if I was able to vote tomorrow then I would likely change my mind. Friends, family and work colleagues also feel the same, if they had a chance to vote again then they would likely change sides.
23-01-2021, 09:23 PM
-:Undertaker:-

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikey

Yes polls can change but over 20 consecutive polls, it shows that those who were polled in each of those polls were in favour of Scottish independence. The Scottish people should be able to change their mind and be able to vote again, whether that decision is a Yes or No vote.

Scotland was granted a vote on independence when 100% of polls showed No was in the lead.

If Scotland did vote for independence, and polls a week later showed No back ahead - would you support a 3rd referendum?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikey

Especially as the Scottish voters were told that if they remained in the UK then they would remain in the EU, which obviously never happened.

I'm really not falling for that one, had we stayed in the EU do you really think Sturgeon and the SNP would not be still advocating a 2nd referendum?

It's also factually incorrect - Cameron announced his intent to hold an EU referendum in his Bloomberg Speech in January 2013.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloomberg_speech

The Scottish referendum was in September 2014. Voters in Scotland were fully aware that Britain could possibly be leaving the European Union.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikey

I was very much on the No side previously but if I was able to vote tomorrow then I would likely change my mind. Friends, family and work colleagues also feel the same, if they had a chance to vote again then they would likely change sides.

In the 2011 referendum on the voting system, I spoilt my vote. I regret doing so, and wish I voted for FPTP.

I do not advocate making everyone else vote again and cancel their votes just because I regret my decision.
23-01-2021, 09:37 PM
Mikey

Quote:

Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Scotland was granted a vote on independence when 100% of polls showed No was in the lead.

If Scotland did vote for independence, and polls a week later showed No back ahead - would you support a 3rd referendum?

I'm really not falling for that one, had we stayed in the EU do you really think Sturgeon and the SNP would not be still advocating a 2nd referendum?

It's also factually incorrect - Cameron announced his intent to hold an EU referendum in his Bloomberg Speech in January 2013.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloomberg_speech

The Scottish referendum was in September 2014. Voters in Scotland were fully aware that Britain could possibly be leaving the European Union.

In the 2011 referendum on the voting system, I spoilt my vote. I regret doing so, and wish I voted for FPTP.

I do not advocate making everyone else vote again and cancel their votes just because I regret my decision.

If the Scottish people want a referendum and it’s in the favour of No then sure. People should be allowed to change their mind.

The No campaign advised that if Scotland remained in the UK then they would remain in the EU. This was never mentioned and was one of the reasons that I voted no. It can be seen here that they advised of this: http://web.archive.org/web/201409142...ant-trust-them

Again if people change their minds and want to vote again then they should be allowed to.
23-01-2021, 09:49 PM
-:Undertaker:-

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikey

If the Scottish people want a referendum and it’s in the favour of No then sure. People should be allowed to change their mind.

But we both know that wouldn't happen. Once Scotland voted Yes, she would never hold another referendum to overturn her 2nd.

And if she lost a 2nd referendum, she would simply demand a 3rd, 4th, 5th until she got her way. Beating the electorate into submission is not democratic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikey

The No campaign advised that if Scotland remained in the UK then they would remain in the EU. This was never mentioned and was one of the reasons that I voted no. It can be seen here that they advised of this: http://web.archive.org/web/201409142...ant-trust-them

You were all aware a EU referendum was coming, like I said from January 2013 in Cameron's Bloomberg speech which had wall-to-wall coverage. You were made even more aware in the European Elections 2014 that took place in the May and in which Scottish voters participated, in which the Conservatives ran on a future referendum.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_E...United_Kingdom

It may be that you thought Leave would never win, but you don't get to overturn every others Scots vote just because your crystal ball was wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikey

Again if people change their minds and want to vote again then they should be allowed to.

Of course and I agree with you, around once-in-a-generation as was agreed in the Edinburgh Agreement in 2012.

You must surely agree with me that you cannot keep holding referendums every few months or couple of years until you get a result you want? That would be... absurd?
24-01-2021, 12:09 AM
-:Undertaker:-

A quick statistic I worked out regarding Scotland's say.

Scotland's Say ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ³ó £ó ´ó ¿

UK ðŸ‡¬ðŸ‡§ Parliament: 59/650 seats = 9%
EU ðŸ‡ªðŸ‡º Parliament: 6/751 seats = 0.7%

An equal say?
— Daniel (@PritaniDan) January 24, 2021
I find the EU mania amongst many nationalists in Scotland absolutely puzzling. Prior to the 2016 EU referendum, no one could name the members of the European Commission and after the referendum and the self-professed love for the EU, nobody still can. I have followed EU politics day-in, day-out since 2007 and still cannot name a European Commissioner other than the President Ursula von whatsherface. Can you actually name any European Commissioners given the EU seems so vital to Scotland? @Mikey;

An intensely strong desire to dismember their own 300 year old country...... to join a trade bloc that they have a 0.7% say in & no idea who even runs it.
24-01-2021, 10:48 AM
-:Undertaker:-

Here's some more numbers I quickly worked out contrasting Scotland's representation/weight as an EU member vs as part of Britain.

Fine, lets do the math again.

Scotland's Say ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ³ó £ó ´ó ¿ (Hypothetical):

- EU ðŸ‡ªðŸ‡º Parliament: 13/571 = 1.7%
- EU ðŸ‡ªðŸ‡º Council of Ministers: 1/28 = 3.5%

Those aren't great numbers. Even weaker when you consider the CoM is voting increasingly by QMV than unanimity.
— Daniel (@PritaniDan) January 24, 2021

Let's look at UK numbers on this.

Scotland's SayðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ³ó £ó ´ó ¿in UK:

ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ³ó £ó ´ó ¿as a % of ðŸ‡¬ðŸ‡§ population = 8.2%

- House of Commons ðŸ‡¬ðŸ‡§: 59/650 = 9%
- House of Lords ðŸ‡¬ðŸ‡§: 70/792 = 8.8%
- UK Cabinet (No. of Scots in) ðŸ‡¬ðŸ‡§ = 2/25 = 8%@DaveScoff
— Daniel (@PritaniDan) January 24, 2021