Brown pledges extra £7.5 BILLION while at Copenhagen

I'm not sure you got the point of what I wrote. I never said that the flooding was a direct result of global warming. Of course flooding has occured since the beginning of humanity, but what I was trying to say is that global warming (or at least the melting of the ice caps if you don't believe in the term 'global warming') is making sea levels rise. This in turn creates a very real threat of lower land within countries including ours becoming almost permanantely flooded. What I was saying is, the money it's costing us to try and preempt this threat is little to what it may continue to cost us if sea levels continue to rise.

On the whole building on flood plains thing, you cannot blame 'Gordon and his cronies' for building houses. This country is relatively small and people are always crying out for more housing. We're actually running out of space to build. If they didn't build new houses then you'd also be on their backs for not providing services we need. They can do no right.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tash.

I'm not sure you got the point of what I wrote. I never said that the flooding was a direct result of global warming. Of course flooding has occured since the beginning of humanity, but what I was trying to say is that global warming (or at least the melting of the ice caps if you don't believe in the term 'global warming') is making sea levels rise. This in turn creates a very real threat of lower land within countries including ours becoming almost permanantely flooded. What I was saying is, the money it's costing us to try and preempt this threat is little to what it may continue to cost us if sea levels continue to rise.

On the whole building on flood plains thing, you cannot blame 'Gordon and his cronies' for building houses. This country is relatively small and people are always crying out for more housing. We're actually running out of space to build. If they didn't build new houses then you'd also be on their backs for not providing services we need. They can do no right.

---

The sea levels haven't risen though, what can effect or appear to effect the levels of the oceans/seas are the pull of the moon and longshore drift. There is no part of the UK from what I have heard or any evidence has been provided on which shows any levels of water have risen at all.

Yes I can blame Gordon Brown, you do not build on flood plains you build on deralict brownfield sites instead of the countryside and flood plains which ties in with what I was saying earlier about common sense - something which this government, Gordon Brown and the left in general seem to lack which explains why they have never been able to run one country in the history of this planet successfully.

If we are running out of space to build then perhaps its time to look at our immigration policy - the point is I don't believe we are running out of space to build. If managed properly then housing regeneration is the better path taken and a cheaper path taken rather than building a whole new generation of houses on the edges of already tatty 1960 outer-town developments.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

The sea levels haven't risen though, what can effect or appear to effect the levels of the oceans/seas are the pull of the moon and longshore drift. There is no part of the UK from what I have heard or any evidence has been provided on which shows any levels of water have risen at all.

Yes I can blame Gordon Brown, you do not build on flood plains you build on deralict brownfield sites instead of the countryside and flood plains which ties in with what I was saying earlier about common sense - something which this government, Gordon Brown and the left in general seem to lack which explains why they have never been able to run one country in the history of this planet successfully.

If we are running out of space to build then perhaps its time to look at our immigration policy - the point is I don't believe we are running out of space to build. If managed properly then housing regeneration is the better path taken and a cheaper path taken rather than building a whole new generation of houses on the edges of already tatty 1960 outer-town developments.

---

No disrespect to you, i'm sure you are a very intelligent person, but I choose to believe the experts on such things over you. Perhaps a better way to get across what I was trying to say is that the ice caps are melting. This is a fact and regardless of the reasons behind this, this will eventually lead the sea levels to rise even if they haven't done so yet. When this happens (not if), we are all going to be paying for it in one way or another. I live on low ground, in a vale even, and we flood here alot - every year infact. I for one do not want to have to abandon the city I grew up in because it is no longer inhabitable. Evidence shows that this might be a real threat in my lifetime. I for one am happy for as much money to be spent on trying to stop this from happening quicker as possible.

Gordon Brown himself has been in office just over 2 years, alot of the policies surrounding house building probably are not his own. On this same vein of thought, you cannot blame him for some of the things the Labour government have been doing on housing. And as for the:

Quote:

---

"common sense - something which this government, Gordon Brown and the left in general seem to lack which explains why they have never been able to run one country in the history of this planet successfully."

---

I honestly would challenge you to provide me with an example of a government (and i'm not speaking only about within the UK, you can go wider if you wish) that has done EVERYTHING right. Where there has been no opposition to any policies they have had or anything. You won't find one, they don't exist. I'm not getting into politics with you because I don't have the energy nor the will to debate UKIP with you, but I would love to see them try and do things any better because I tell you it won't happen. All governments are eventually remembered only for the bad things they do, never anything good.

As for the immigration thing, I wrote what I did with the knowledge you would right something similar back. You don't believe we are running out of space to build, and that's fine, but I was taught something entirely different. We no longer build upwards, and alot of our countryside is rightly protected from building developments, but this causes a problem when the UK population, and the world's population is increasing at an alarming rate.

We should get out of debt first :l Pretty simple IMO, make people pay for certain things and get rid of useless things which nobody needs, loads of things today, for me, are pointless such as certain job titles. I don't see why we need like 20,000 or something MPs, that could easily be cut by half I think. Also people who earn a certain amount should not get "the complete NHS package", so if they make over £30k or something then they cannot recieve prescriptions or if they make over £100,000 then they have to pay for it all.

Btw to the melting ice-caps, I don't think they're rising as most of the ice is in the water already so if it does rise it will be miniscule imo.

Quote:

---

No disrespect to you, i'm sure you are a very intelligent person, but I choose to believe the experts on such things over you. Perhaps a better way to get across what I was trying to say is that the ice caps are melting. This is a fact and regardless of the reasons behind this, this will eventually lead the sea levels to rise even if they haven't done so yet. When this happens (not if), we are all going to be paying for it in one way or another. I live on low ground, in a vale even, and we flood here alot - every year infact. I for one do not want to have to abandon the city I grew up in because it is no longer inhabitable. Evidence shows that this might be a real threat in my lifetime. I for one am happy for as much money to be spent on trying to stop this from happening quicker as possible.

---

The experts who are paid by the government?. The experts who sent a letter to the US President in the 70s and 80s predicting another ice age?. The experts who happen to support higher taxes on the people of countries around the world who just happen to recieve very generous grants from central government and the European Union? - I know what I believe, not myself but common sense.

The ice caps melting? - well why haven't sea levels risen already then? - until I start seeing the River Mersey or the Irish Sea rising then I will not believe a damn word of it, on the ice caps - you see ice caps collapsing and do you know why this is?; I shall explain.

a) the ice caps have always regenerated by pushing out from the polar centres, and thus ice on the edges will collapse into the sea as it is constantly being pushed outwards by newer ice in the centre. If this did not happen then the poles would be ice mountains which would be thousands if not millions of feet in height at this point in time.

b) the ice caps melt in the summer but reform in the winter, to what extent they reform can vary on each year and will do so while the ice caps are present. Sunlight melts ice.

On where you live, you live in a basin then. What needs to happen thanks to mass-urbanization is for better drainage and planning to take place but this will not stop flooding, if you live on low ground then you will get flooding and always have had flooing.

Quote:

---

Gordon Brown himself has been in office just over 2 years, alot of the policies surrounding house building probably are not his own. On this same vein of thought, you cannot blame him for some of the things the Labour government have been doing on housing. And as for the:

---

Gordon Browns treasury funded John Prescotts department and mass-town planning schemes, Gordon Brown funded the Iraq war. Gordon Brown funded everything - so the left needs to stop pretending poor Gordy has been plonked into a mess, hes been put in a mess which he created and a mess which we will have to suffer for years to come, while Gordon and the rest of the disgraced Labour cabinet go off to the EU for nicely funded jobs which will still be paid for by us.

Quote:

---

I honestly would challenge you to provide me with an example of a government (and i'm not speaking only about within the UK, you can go wider if you wish) that has done EVERYTHING right. Where there has been no opposition to any policies they have had or anything. You won't find one, they don't exist. I'm not getting into politics with you because I don't have the energy nor the will to debate UKIP with you, but I would love to see them try and do things any better because I tell you it won't happen. All governments are eventually remembered only for the bad things they do, never anything good.

---

The Thatcher government is a government I can point to for getting most things right, or at least improving the country. The Churchill government (first time) is another example. Every single time a Labour government gains office it creates the same old mess.

What would UKIP do better? - stop giving billions upon billions of our money to tinpot leaders like Robert Mugabe and start spending it on things that are real, things that make a difference like umm.. I don't know maybe; military, NHS drugs, infastructure and lower taxes to make peoples lives easier.

Take a look at the Callgahan government, i'm no Conservative Party fan at the moment with cast-iron Dave incharge, but I know from past governments records that the Conservatives are capable of running a government, the opposite of a Labour government or any left government in general.

Quote:

---

As for the immigration thing, I wrote what I did with the knowledge you would right something similar back. You don't believe we are running out of space to build, and that's fine, but I was taught something entirely different. We no longer build upwards, and alot of our countryside is rightly protected from building developments, but this causes a problem when the UK population, and the world's population is increasing at an alarming rate.

---

If you believe we are running out of space then surely you believe immigration should be stopped or cut as soon as possible?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

The experts who are paid by the government?. The experts who sent a letter to the US President in the 70s and 80s predicting another ice age?. The experts who happen to support higher taxes on the people of countries around the world who just happen to recieve very generous grants from central government and the European Union? - I know what I believe, not myself but common sense.

The ice caps melting? - well why haven't sea levels risen already then? - until I start seeing the River Mersey or the Irish Sea rising then I will not believe a damn word of it, on the ice caps - you see ice caps collapsing and do you know why this is?; I shall explain.

a) the ice caps have always regenerated by pushing out from the polar centres, and thus ice on the edges will collapse into the sea as it is constantly being pushed outwards by newer ice in the centre. If this did not happen then the poles would be ice mountains which would be thousands if not millions of feet in height at this point in time.

b) the ice caps melt in the summer but reform in the winter, to what extent they reform can vary on each year and will do so while the ice caps are present. Sunlight melts ice.

On where you live, you live in a basin then. What needs to happen thanks to mass-urbanization is for better drainage and planning to take place but this will not stop flooding, if you live on low ground then you will get flooding and always have had flooing.

Gordon Browns treasury funded John Prescotts department and mass-town planning schemes, Gordon Brown funded the Iraq war. Gordon Brown funded everything - so the left needs to stop pretending poor Gordy has been plonked into a mess, hes been put in a mess which he created and a mess which we will have to suffer for years to come, while Gordon and the rest of the disgraced Labour cabinet go off to the EU for nicely funded jobs which will still be paid for by us.

The Thatcher government is a government I can point to for getting most things right, or at least improving the country. The Churchill government (first time) is another example. Every single time a Labour government gains office it creates the same old mess.

What would UKIP do better? - stop giving billions upon billions of our money to tinpot leaders like Robert Mugabe and start spending it on things that are real, things that make a difference like umm.. I don't know maybe; military, NHS drugs, infastructure and lower taxes to make peoples lives easier.

Take a look at the Callgahan government, i'm no Conservative Party fan at the moment with cast-iron Dave incharge, but I know from past governments records that the Conservatives are capable of running a government, the opposite of a Labour government or any left government in general.

If you believe we are running out of space then surely you believe immigration should be stopped or cut as soon as possible?

---

It's quite evident to me that you see yourself as some sort of rebel, though against what i'm yet to discover as you appear to despise many many things for no real reason. Yes, I trust the experts who are paid by the government as they have the relevant knowledge and experience to support their views. Common sense has nothing to do with this, your common sense will not tell you at what rate the ice caps are melting, nor will it tell you at what rate the ozone is depleting either so using your common sense won't get you very far.

I'm pretty confident I know why the ice caps are melting, and yes those reasoons you kindly explained for me in a very derogatory manner are part of it. However, the earth is warming. It is only common sense, a thing you apparently like to use, that ice is going to melt when temperatures increase. You might not want to except it until you see it with your own eyes in this country, but I for one don't want to let it get that far and i'm sure others don't either.

Yes like I said, the Vale of York has always flooded and probably always will, but does that mean that it can't get worse? No it doesn't, currently where I live in York it doesn't flood but I don't want it to get to the point where it does. I'm sure other people living in a basin would share my sentiments.

Again, yes Gordon Brown was the chancellor, but do you honestly think alot of the decisions for funding were down to his beliefs on things? I don't think so, and if you do you're more naive than I thought. In politics, and you really should know this considering how deeply into the whole subject you are, nothing is straight forward. Brown did not create the entirety of the mess we are in, he did not regulate all the banks in the world and therefore he is not responsible for the current downturn. And oh look, yet again you seem to have managed to relate this current debate back to the EU, please just leave it alone because it's getting tiresome.

The Thatcher government? Ok, I have just one question, are you crazy? She is well known to have pretty much ruined this country. I aren't proud of this as a feminist as it appears to many that a woman running this country will never be any good, but the fact still stands - she was horrible. She managed to alienate hundreds of thousands of people and some of her policies we're still paying for today, so no she is not a good example at all.

And no, I do not believe that immigration is solely to blame. It may have escaped your notice, what with you being a major advocate for the complete halt of immigration, but there are 'families', and I use that term loosely, that keep reproducing despite the fact that they have no means to upgrade to a bigger house when they do end up with too many people to house. That is a major problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

The experts who are paid by the government?. The experts who sent a letter to the US President in the 70s and 80s predicting another ice age?. The experts who happen to support higher taxes on the people of countries around the world who just happen to recieve very generous grants from central government and the European Union? - I know what I believe, not myself but common sense.

The ice caps melting? - well why haven't sea levels risen already then? - until I start seeing the River Mersey or the Irish Sea rising then I will not believe a damn word of it, on the ice caps - you see ice caps collapsing and do you know why this is?; I shall explain.

a) the ice caps have always regenerated by pushing out from the polar centres, and thus ice on the edges will collapse into the sea as it is constantly being pushed outwards by newer ice in the centre. If this did not happen then the poles would be ice mountains which would be thousands if not millions of feet in height at this point in time.

b) the ice caps melt in the summer but reform in the winter, to what extent they reform can vary on each year and will do so while the ice caps are present. Sunlight melts ice.

On where you live, you live in a basin then. What needs to happen thanks to mass-urbanization is for better drainage and planning to take place but this will not stop flooding, if you live on low ground then you will get flooding and always have had flooing.

Gordon Browns treasury funded John Prescotts department and mass-town planning schemes, Gordon Brown funded the Iraq war. Gordon Brown funded everything - so the left needs to stop pretending poor Gordy has been plonked into a mess, hes been put in a mess which he created and a mess which we will have to suffer for years to come, while Gordon and the rest of the disgraced Labour cabinet go off to the EU for nicely funded jobs which will still be paid for by us.

The Thatcher government is a government I can point to for getting most things right, or at least improving the country. The Churchill government (first time) is another example. Every single time a Labour government gains office it creates the same old mess.

What would UKIP do better? - stop giving billions upon billions of our money to tinpot leaders like Robert Mugabe and start spending it on things that are real, things that make a difference like umm.. I don't know maybe; military, NHS drugs, infastructure and lower taxes to make peoples lives easier.

Take a look at the Callgahan government, i'm no Conservative Party fan at the moment with cast-iron Dave incharge, but I know from past governments records that the Conservatives are capable of running a government, the opposite of a Labour government or any left government in general.

If you believe we are running out of space then surely you believe immigration should be stopped or cut as soon as possible?

---

Experts said we would have no petrol by 2000. They now say its about 2050 or something. They are never accurate but they aren't wrong either.

You claim you dont know much about the ozone, so I am unable to understand how you can argue about this point? Fossil fuels are burnt, causing a hole in the ozone, causing earth to warm up, causing ice to melt.

Quote:

---

It's quite evident to me that you see yourself as some sort of rebel, though against what i'm yet to discover as you appear to despise many many things for no real reason. Yes, I trust the experts who are paid by the government as they have the relevant knowledge and experience to support their views. Common sense has nothing to do with this, your common sense will not tell you at what rate the ice caps are melting, nor will it tell you at what rate the ozone is depleting either so using your common sense won't get you very far.

---

Rebel because I disagree with you, Labour and the European Union? - well if i'm a rebel most of this country is for sure a rebel because most people on the streets don't want EU and don't believe in global warming, or as its called nowadays climate change.

On the common sense, yes it would. If the ice caps are melting then my common sense would of detected a sea rise when i'm on the beach or at the docks at the River Mersey - no sea rise. As I said before, the others factors I mentioned are in play and not climate change.

Quote:

---

I'm pretty confident I know why the ice caps are melting, and yes those reasoons you kindly explained for me in a very derogatory manner are part of it. However, the earth is warming. It is only common sense, a thing you apparently like to use, that ice is going to melt when temperatures increase. You might not want to except it until you see it with your own eyes in this country, but I for one don't want to let it get that far and i'm sure others don't either.

---

You have just said the Earth is warming right after acknowledging what I explained to you, even when I explain in a simple a) and b) way its ignored, but am I genuinely suprised? - not really.

Quote:

---

Yes like I said, the Vale of York has always flooded and probably always will, but does that mean that it can't get worse? No it doesn't, currently where I live in York it doesn't flood but I don't want it to get to the point where it does. I'm sure other people living in a basin would share my sentiments.

---

Oh so now you are saying the climate COULD warm, well that sums up the whole climate issue to anybody reading this that without a shadow of a doubt all the facts such as the ones I mentioned are ignored, and everything is based on what could happen. A lot of things could happe, a volcano could sprout up in my back garden overnight but we don't spend billions upon billions on 'preventing' it because its simply not a threat, just like climate change.

Quote:

---

Again, yes Gordon Brown was the chancellor, but do you honestly think alot of the decisions for funding were down to his beliefs on things? I don't think so, and if you do you're more naive than I thought. In politics, and you really should know this considering how deeply into the whole subject you are, nothing is straight forward. Brown did not create the entirety of the mess we are in, he did not regulate all the banks in the world and therefore he is not responsible for the current downturn. And oh look, yet again you seem to have managed to relate this current debate back to the EU, please just leave it alone because it's getting tiresome.

---

Yes, traditionally and even more so with the last government the Chancellor of the Exchequer had a lot of control over spending, as was said before; if the treasury would of refused funding for the Iraq war then the premiership of Tony Blair would of collapsed overnight.

On the downturn, Gordon sold our gold off at a stupendously cheap price, Gordon failed to see the collapse in financial capital coming which many were predicting (even I noticed in that summer before the collapse of major banks how the housing market was on its last legs) - something had to give. Gordons hands are all over it, especially when he funded a very wasteful state splashout during the last decade and continues to do so to this day, using our money to pay hundreds of thousands of buracrats in whitehall and across town halls in this country (not to mention the rising sums to the EU and tinpots like President Mugabe).

Quote:

---

The Thatcher government? Ok, I have just one question, are you crazy? She is well known to have pretty much ruined this country. I aren't proud of this as a feminist as it appears to many that a woman running this country will never be any good, but the fact still stands - she was horrible. She managed to alienate hundreds of thousands of people and some of her policies we're still paying for today, so no she is not a good example at all.

---

I have one question for you; how (tell me how and what) did the Thatcher government ruin this country?

You obviously have not heard of the winter of discontent, the strikes, Sunny Jim, the Kinnocks, Aruther Scargill, Derek Hatton and our good friend Michael Foot whos manifesto was perhaps the most famous (and absurd) manifesto in history.

Quote:

---

And no, I do not believe that immigration is solely to blame. It may have escaped your notice, what with you being a major advocate for the complete halt of immigration, but there are 'families', and I use that term loosely, that keep reproducing despite the fact that they have no means to upgrade to a bigger house when they do end up with too many people to house. That is a major problem.

---

I do not want a complete halt to immigration, yet again you (the left) shows it cannot accept the fact that people want simple controls our immigration to stop our country turning into a crime-ridden racial ghetto, but hey as I have said before, i'm not suprised.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saurav

Experts said we would have no petrol by 2000. They now say its about 2050 or something. They are never accurate but they aren't wrong either.

You claim you dont know much about the ozone, so I am unable to understand how you can argue about this point? Fossil fuels are burnt, causing a hole in the ozone, causing earth to warm up, causing ice to melt.

---

Thanks for proving my point.

You and Tash have both ignored my points in sea levels, ice pushing from the poles, pull of the moon, longshore drift and others, so it is infact me who is unable to understand how you can argue about this point and not the other way around.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Thanks for proving my point.

You and Tash have both ignored my points in sea levels, ice pushing from the poles, pull of the moon, longshore drift and others, so it is infact me who is unable to understand how you can argue about this point and not the other way around.

---

I will reply to the rest of your post later. But did you even read what I said or are you just being plain ignorant again? Pull of moon etc have been happening since the beginning :S wth.

Did you not read what I said?
Fossil fuels are burnt, causes hole in ozone layer, causes Earths temperature to rise, ice melts, sea level rises.

How can you even debate anything relating to this when you openly admitted you dont know much about the O-Zone. If you dont know about that then you are just arguing for the sake of it :s If you dont understand what ozone is, how can you say the scientists are making it all up?

Oh yes, lets doubt EVERYTHING that EVERY scientist says about EVERY test and experiment. Dont be silly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saurav

I will reply to the rest of your post later. But did you even read what I said or are you just being plain ignorant again? Pull of moon etc have been happening since the beginning :S wth.

Did you not read what I said?
Fossil fuels are burnt, causes hole in ozone layer, causes Earths temperature to rise, ice melts, sea level rises.

How can you even debate anything relating to this when you openly admitted you dont know much about the O-Zone. If you dont know about that then you are just arguing for the sake of it :s If you dont understand what ozone is, how can you say the scientists are making it all up?

Oh yes, lets doubt EVERYTHING that EVERY scientist says about EVERY test and experiment. Dont be silly.

---

I did read what you said, i've read what you have said everytime you have replied in this thread and the other thread - and i'm afraid its the same old nonsense about how sea levels are supposedly rising and how climate change is an issue yet it ignores every single point I have made about longshore drift, flood plains, pull of the moon, ice being pushed from the centre of the poles and the fact that ice melts in the summetime, hence all the pictures of melting ice.

On the scientists, not all scientists are saying this. It only seems to be the scientists who are on government/EU payroll who a group were found out to be fixing data to suit the idea that the climate is changing, when its clearly not.