Cameron wants nation to appreciate armed forces

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Originally Posted by alexxxxx

that's it 'soldiers are doing their job' and that's what being a soldier is - a job. A poorly paid one, because as sad as it sounds, unemploy(-able/ed) young men are 'a dime a dozen' in some areas and unfortunately their only choices are being on the dole or earn a bit more being a soldier. I'm sure some people go into the army for the love of their country or the job itself but some simply have to go to better themselves as they didn't have the opportunity to do so beforehand. You see it on the adverts on the TV for the army, they almost portray it as a training camp rather than really the seriousness of the job.

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In that case they should not be badgered for doing their job - just as firemen, police, doctors, etc. shouldn't be hassled for doing their jobs.

Many people go into the army for the love of the job - you don't just join the army or the armed forces because you need money. By joining you are putting your life on the line; you may never see your family again, you may never do what you love to do again so it is a BIG decision. Most people would rather go on the dole than fight in a foreign country and possibly die so they must really want to go for it.

Anyway you have your opinion, and I have mine which is the opposite.

I would understand what Cameron is saying if only for one thing;- at the moment our country is facing cuts thanks to the last Labour government whilst also fighting a war in Afghanistan with our soldiers already under-equipped and 4 times more likely to die than their American counterparts. Now in the emergency budget its very likely defence spending is going to be cut right back (understandable if you have to save money) but what isnt understandable is that our defence budgets get cut whilst our foreign aid is being increased and our direct EU payments are being increased.

I'm not falling for Cameron and the Conservatives PR stunts anymore and i'd suggest to anybody else to take the same line - they are not remotely patriotic anymore and are something that sadly resembles the dreadful Labour Party in every shape and form.

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Originally Posted by Hitman

In that case they should not be badgered for doing their job - just as firemen, police, doctors, etc. shouldn't be hassled for doing their jobs.

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No they shouldn't but also they shouldn't be getting 'big props' for doing their job too. Sure they should be appreciated, but they shouldn't gain some sort of heroic status where their judgements cannot be put under scrutiny. Unprofessional conduct in the army happens, it shouldn't be hidden just so we can have an image of whiter than white.

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Many people go into the army for the love of the job - you don't just join the army or the armed forces because you need money. By joining you are putting your life on the line; you may never see your family again, you may never do what you love to do again so it is a BIG decision. Most people would rather go on the dole than fight in a foreign country and possibly die so they must really want to go for it.

Anyway you have your opinion, and I have mine which is the opposite.

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The people i've heard of and know of who have applied or thought of joining the armed forces are people that frankly don't have the skills to go to college/uni or even a job in most cases but would be ashamed to go on the dole. It's a matter of pride, being on "hand-outs" isn't good for self-esteem as there is a natural instinct for men to want to be self-sustainable, independent and also can provide for their family if they have one.

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Originally Posted by alexxxxx

No they shouldn't but also they shouldn't be getting 'big props' for doing their job too. Sure they should be appreciated, but they shouldn't gain some sort of heroic status where their judgements cannot be put under scrutiny. Unprofessional conduct in the army happens, it shouldn't be hidden just so we can have an image of whiter than white.


The people i've heard of and know of who have applied or thought of joining the armed forces are people that frankly don't have the skills to go to college/uni or even a job in most cases but would be ashamed to go on the dole. It's a matter of pride, being on "hand-outs" isn't good for self-esteem as there is a natural instinct for men to want to be self-sustainable, independent and also can provide for their family if they have one.

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I'm not saying the army should be 'untouchable' and should not be allowed to be criticised - of course it should where it fails to do what it should, however being hassled or harassed for doing their job isn't fair. People can have their opinions but it's unfair to trouble people who are simply doing their jobs - the extremists should protest to the Government.

Exactly, my point is that it's not a light decision to join the army due to the risks. They can dent their pride but stay safe, or maintain it but risk their life. The people I know who've joined the army have done so because they wanted to fight for their country or because they want to do something worthwhile with their lives.

All I'm saying is that if a time comes, as in the past, where the UK is directly under threat, these men and women will be fighting for our freedom and security. Surely they should be honoured for that. I know they're in Afghanistan now and this war does not seem to directly affect us, but IF there was something directly affecting us then these people would be sent to deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Hitman

I'm not saying the army should be 'untouchable' and should not be allowed to be criticised - of course it should where it fails to do what it should, however being hassled or harassed for doing their job isn't fair. People can have their opinions but it's unfair to trouble people who are simply doing their jobs - the extremists should protest to the Government.

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and they do. The stop the war protesters every time i go to london are there. Most of the army will have either signed up or renewed their contracts with the armed forces during the Iraq/Afghan war. They knew that this was a very likely place they were going.

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Exactly, my point is that it's not a light decision to join the army due to the risks. They can dent their pride but stay safe, or maintain it but risk their life. The people I know who've joined the army have done so because they wanted to fight for their country or because they want to do something worthwhile with their lives.

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Any soldier to be is unlikely to be a person who would want to dent their personal pride or make themselves feel less than someone else. That's why they join the army.

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All I'm saying is that if a time comes, as in the past, where the UK is directly under threat, these men and women will be fighting for our freedom and security. Surely they should be honoured for that. I know they're in Afghanistan now and this war does not seem to directly affect us, but IF there was something directly affecting us then these people would be sent to deal with it.

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And perhaps then they would deserve more respect. I feel you have to earn respect, not just gain it automatically.

I've never heard a soldier go on about how soldiers are not given enough respect in this country. It's usually the families of soldiers and the far right. The soldiers feel like they are doing their job.

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Originally Posted by alexxxxx

Any soldier to be is unlikely to be a person who would want to dent their personal pride or make themselves feel less than someone else. That's why they join the army.

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Yes, so they then risk their lives by joining, which is a big thing. Would you risk your life to fight in Afghanistan?

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Originally Posted by alexxxxx

And perhaps then they would deserve more respect. I feel you have to earn respect, not just gain it automatically.

I've never heard a soldier go on about how soldiers are not given enough respect in this country. It's usually the families of soldiers and the far right. The soldiers feel like they are doing their job.

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Right, but the situation is the same: they are fighting and risking their lives. One has almost no impact on our daily lives, the other has more. At the end of the day they are still fighting and risking their lives for their country.

Me neither, and that is because it would seem like they're looking for attention or are looking big headed or something along those lines - maybe inside they are thinking that, but they might not say it out loud - I'm sure you have thought one thing but not said anything about it, we all have.

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Originally Posted by Hitman

Yes, so they then risk their lives by joining, which is a big thing. Would you risk your life to fight in Afghanistan?

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This is a question that is always asked by people relentlessly defending the army. No I wouldn't because I have better prospects than most who contemplate joining the army and I can go to university and study to become a civil engineer.

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Right, but the situation is the same: they are fighting and risking their lives. One has almost no impact on our daily lives, the other has more. At the end of the day they are still fighting and risking their lives for their country.

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Honour someone for potentially doing something? I could potentially save someone's life in the future, should I be honoured? No of course not. Maybe i'm in the minority but i don't feel overwhelmed with a sense of pride when i see british soldiers. They are fighting because they are paid to do so, just like the british who fight in the French foreign legion and the gurkhas who fight for us. It's a way of bettering themselves. If I needed to i'd consider it. If I couldn't get an engineering job in the private sector i'd at least consider the army engineer corps.

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Me neither, and that is because it would seem like they're looking for attention or are looking big headed or something along those lines - maybe inside they are thinking that, but they might not say it out loud - I'm sure you have thought one thing but not said anything about it, we all have.

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I doubt it.

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Originally Posted by alexxxxx

this is free speech imo

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No free speech in the UK. Getting these nutjobs off the streets and out of the country is a good idea.

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Originally Posted by alexxxxx

This is a question that is always asked by people relentlessly defending the army. No I wouldn't because I have better prospects than most who contemplate joining the army and I can go to university and study to become a civil engineer.

Honour someone for potentially doing something? I could potentially save someone's life in the future, should I be honoured? No of course not. Maybe i'm in the minority but i don't feel overwhelmed with a sense of pride when i see british soldiers. They are fighting because they are paid to do so, just like the british who fight in the French foreign legion and the gurkhas who fight for us. It's a way of bettering themselves. If I needed to i'd consider it. If I couldn't get an engineering job in the private sector i'd at least consider the army engineer corps.

I doubt it.

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So for you becoming a civil engineer is what you want to do, and for some it's join the army and fight for the country. One could been seen better than the other in different people's eyes. And getting to a high rank in the army could prove much better.

Ugh nevermind you don't get it. If the UK is directly under threat, these troops will be whisked away from wherever they are and will be fighting against the enemy forces without a say or without question.

Well put yourself in their shoes or the shoes of any job - would you really burst out 'I need more respect for my job, bla bla bla' - NO. You'd look big headed or attention seeking.

Anyway I'm brining this to an end (at least on my part) as we're starting to fall into vortex of replies.

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Originally Posted by Hitman

Indeed they do get warm welcomes, apart from nowadays there are nutty Islamic extremists calling them murderers... now if David really supports them maybe he'd do something about that...

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Depends how he would go about it. As alexxxxx said, they have freedom of speech. What would be acceptable would be moving them away from the parade like they do with some other events, particularly political events, with force if necessary. They could probably try heavier penalties, as they do seem to be given light treatment compared to British nationalities/whities, especially when these protestors use death threats when all British protestors do is make peaceful protests (obviously some turn to physical violence, but that's physical abuse rather than verbal).