Wales says Yes in Referendum Vote

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Originally Posted by Conservative,

How do you not get a voice? All these extra assemblies are just another level of bureaucratic nonsense so failed politicians can get elected, paid too much and waste English money. Yes, English - because we're the only ones without an independent parliament. If we had one we could control our money.

The fact is Scotland, Wales and Ireland rely on the "British Parliament" for 1 reason - money. The "British" Government pays for the separate assemblies and therefore English people are spending taxes on something that doesn't have anything to do with them.

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Its widely known that English money is used to fund devolution government - Im not nor is anyone else going to deny that? Of course the Welsh assembly wants it to be funded by it's own people but it's not possible - I don't see you arguing against the London Assembly? Surely that is just a waste of money also then?

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

I can understand what Sarah means, the way in which Welsh MPs could be outvoted in Westminister - but thats part of being in the Union. I do think however that we should generally bring back localism (local referendums across the Kingdom) rather than basically undoing the union by giving each country its own parliament/assembly. That would mean the Kingdom would stay a United Kingdom, and local areas are more devolved.

In a way it is similar to the issue of the European Union, the fact we [UK] can be outvoted (on issues they allow the vote) is one reason I want out.

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Thank you! Some sense! It's not that we don't want to be apart of the UK its just this the only successful way of getting our voices heard on our local issues in Wales. I agree with your Localism idea! It would probably be more effective and be more grass-rooted which people prefer.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

I follow the line Enoch Powell took; if Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are to have their own parliaments they may aswell be independent. I'm a unionist myself, but if the union is to break up then the union is to break up and it is time to make that choice. All of us at Westminister, or the end of the United Kingdom.

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Agreed. There's no point having a Union other than as informality to show we're attached to each other. If they've got different Governments, then they're practically seperate countries with their own power. If it doesn't work out, they can direct power back to Westminster - if it does work out, then good for them.

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Originally Posted by Sarah

Its widely known that English money is used to fund devolution government - Im not nor is anyone else going to deny that? Of course the Welsh assembly wants it to be funded by it's own people but it's not possible - I don't see you arguing against the London Assembly? Surely that is just a waste of money also then?



Thank you! Some sense! It's not that we don't want to be apart of the UK its just this the only successful way of getting our voices heard on our local issues in Wales. I agree with your Localism idea! It would probably be more effective and be more grass-rooted which people prefer.

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The London assembly is also a waste of money and I don't see the point in it.

Just because you get outvoted doesn't mean you don't have a voice. That's like saying because you voted Labour and they didn't get into Government you don't have a voice.

I agree with Dan of having localism rather than these pointless assemblies for each country as well.

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Originally Posted by Conservative,

How do you not get a voice? All these extra assemblies are just another level of bureaucratic nonsense so failed politicians can get elected, paid too much and waste English money. Yes, English - because we're the only ones without an independent parliament. If we had one we could control our money.

The fact is Scotland, Wales and Ireland rely on the "British Parliament" for 1 reason - money. The "British" Government pays for the separate assemblies and therefore English people are spending taxes on something that doesn't have anything to do with them.

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Shouldn't have invaded us then, should you?

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Originally Posted by Niall!

Shouldn't have invaded us then, should you?

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Who is "us" exactly?

In my opinion, this will just separate the union until it falls part, with some indepdence claims from Scotland the union could easily be broken in the next ten years. The problem with individual parliaments within the union itself means that with different laws popping up in the different union countries, in my eyes it doesn't really fit the idea of a union. It makes much more sense to be together upon all things, I mean, as far as I can tell - whatever the individual parliaments are spending is coming from our taxes, if all our taxes are going into "one pot" then it's only right that that should be controlled by one parliament. It's like the Welsh Assembly offering to cover the increase in tuition fees for Welsh students - I can almost guaruntee this will eat up a huge part of the Welsh Budget, so are Wales then going to ask for money from English and Scottish taxpayers to fund the rest of the things they need? I'm with Dan (for once) on this, for the sake of the United Kingdom it should all be controlled through Westminster or we may as well split, be separate countries and have separate funds paid for by the taxpayer of the country, otherwise it's simply not fair to the other countries of the union.

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Originally Posted by Conservative,

Might as well just be an independent country now and learn to pay for yourselves instead of sponging off the British Government. And Scotland and Ireland can do that too and then the British Government can be the English Government and we'll all be happy.

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Well tbh it would apply to all those who live outside London and the South East. Quite frankly you have a very uninformed view if you feel it is just the home nations who are subsidised and don't forget that Britain is paid for by all BRITISH taxpayers and there is no majority of the country for you to say 'we'll be happy' so get of your high horse please:P
The referendum passed for one reason and one reason only because the conservatives got into power and Wales is a labour heartland. There is no appetite to go any further down the road to
independence. I feel the union is safe and may well prosper at it now now catering for the diversity of its nations. Long live the UK as far as I am concerned. As far as Hecktix's point is concerned there is no tuition fees in Scotland either. They just spend the money differently - no-one is going to ask for further money. There is actually no change in the budget arrangements. It is still controlled at Westminster. Just to explain it further Wales already make laws but need the nod from Westminster until today. Nothing has been turned down so it will just mean less bureaucracy and the Welsh Ams will not be able to blame Westminster anymore which is a good thing as now they will become completely accountable.

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Originally Posted by Hecktix

In my opinion, this will just separate the union until it falls part, with some indepdence claims from Scotland the union could easily be broken in the next ten years. The problem with individual parliaments within the union itself means that with different laws popping up in the different union countries, in my eyes it doesn't really fit the idea of a union. It makes much more sense to be together upon all things, I mean, as far as I can tell - whatever the individual parliaments are spending is coming from our taxes, if all our taxes are going into "one pot" then it's only right that that should be controlled by one parliament. It's like the Welsh Assembly offering to cover the increase in tuition fees for Welsh students - I can almost guaruntee this will eat up a huge part of the Welsh Budget, so are Wales then going to ask for money from English and Scottish taxpayers to fund the rest of the things they need? I'm with Dan (for once) on this, for the sake of the United Kingdom it should all be controlled through Westminster or we may as well split, be separate countries and have separate funds paid for by the taxpayer of the country, otherwise it's simply not fair to the other countries of the union.

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Well summarised there, I've been advocating this for quite a while.

It's deeply unfair how devolution is at the moment, English people don't even have a "national" parliament to air their views and then of course the devolved governments are taking out more money out the budget but paying the same taxes. People complain about the EU being unfair when it's just as bad on our own soil unfortunately, I consider it quite a big issue. Either we should go back to having one parliament (Westminster) for the whole union or we just scrap the whole thing, accelerate devolution until the UK becomes four separate issues, and some sort of a union for common ground (Defence and trade for instance). Unfortunately it's too late to go back to how it was, the people of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland will certainly not approve of going backwards so we'll probably continue with this unfair nonsense for a few decades, with little or no politicians daring to speak out about it due to fear of losing votes in the respective nations, and then eventually, and sadly, we'll become four individual nations :(

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Originally Posted by Jordy

Well summarised there, I've been advocating this for quite a while.

It's deeply unfair how devolution is at the moment, English people don't even have a "national" parliament to air their views and then of course the devolved governments are taking out more money out the budget but paying the same taxes. People complain about the EU being unfair when it's just as bad on our own soil unfortunately, I consider it quite a big issue. Either we should go back to having one parliament (Westminster) for the whole union or we just scrap the whole thing, accelerate devolution until the UK becomes four separate issues, and some sort of a union for common ground (Defence and trade for instance). Unfortunately it's too late to go back to how it was, the people of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland will certainly not approve of going backwards so we'll probably continue with this unfair nonsense for a few decades, with little or no politicians daring to speak out about it due to fear of losing votes in the respective nations, and then eventually, and sadly, we'll become four individual nations :(

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I agree about having an english parliament for issues that only effect england as this is what the nations have. Parliament would still be in charge of issues that effect the whole of the UK.

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Originally Posted by Conservative,

Who is "us" exactly?

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N. Ireland represent