Turner jailed for life.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Evil people care not for these things, life ought to mean life.

I myself think he ought to be hanged.

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You're asking for retribution, not justice.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

I am afraid that it is the main view of our society and code of morality (on which some form of coherent legal system must be based upon) that those who purposely seek to take away life in such a manner are genuinely evil. I argue for a justice system based on due punishment, not what third rate sociology teachers preach in classrooms about society at large or parents being the blame for evil and nasty people committing evil and nasty acts.

I call those who purposely take life from others by force evil, and I make no apologies for it.

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I accept that, I was just stating a fact.

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Too late, even if he genuinely did then the life has been taken - something that cannot be replaced. And besides, just because somebody accepts they've made a 'mistake' doesn't mean the due punishment ought to be annulled. The secondary purpose of punishment is, after all, to act as a deterrence.

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It's not really a "secondary purpose". As far as I'm aware, different sentences have different purposes.

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This is utter nonsense, apart from not stating why it is not suitable you simply say it is 'not suitable' as a way of knocking it down without any substance to that statement. On the second part, death is the ultimate punishment you will find, especially amongst criminals hence why they use it on one another for serious acts of revenge or betrayal. I therefore fail to see why you would be opposed to a justice system (note the word justice) using the ultimate and civilised punishment on those who have committed acts which justify such a fate and who committed the act in the full knowledge that they may meet this fate at the hands of a jury if they carried out their evil thoughts.

Do you take/have taken sociology may I ask? if so, you might as well come out and blame everybody on this forum right now for the ills of society which have 'driven' this man to commit unspeakable acts of evil.. as 'enlightened' students of that subject like to trot out.

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Well it's not suitable because it can be seen that killing someone because they went against law can be hypocritical as essentially you're killing them for not accepting your views, which he may have done to that person.

On the point on death being the ultimate punishment, well it's not really. It happens to everyone at one point therefore is everyone being punished? And even if it can be seen as punishment, surely having essentially wait for around 15 years (or however long it is), come out with little chance of getting a job which means you'll be living on the streets most likely, living off the bare minimum and then perhaps catch a disease and die. Surely that sounds much worse?

Finally I have not taken sociology and I don't see how this is relevant. I do not mention anything about how society made the man do what he did therefore why would I suddenly blame everyone.

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Originally Posted by Chippiewill

You're asking for retribution, not justice.

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No, I think you will find that justice is the notion of a punishment which punishes (ie something bad occurs) in order to carry out the act of justice on the offender. Now, as I said earlier - the notion of death is the most severe punishment you can use on somebody;- it is why criminals use it on one another and why we correctly wish death upon those who commit the most evil of crimes.

Criminals themselves understand this, hence why they use torture and murder to teach a lesson/hand out justice to their enemies. I think though that the point should also be made that as we are not criminals, the state shouldn't use torture or barbaric methods of death - a civilised death penalty of hanging is suitable.

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Originally Posted by dbgtz

It's not really a "secondary purpose". As far as I'm aware, different sentences have different purposes.

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I'm referring to the secondary purpose of the death penalty itself, to deter.

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Originally Posted by dbgtz

Well it's not suitable because it can be seen that killing someone because they went against law can be hypocritical as essentially you're killing them for not accepting your views, which he may have done to that person.

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No, I am no anarchist. I accept that the state should be present to do the essential duties of protecting the nation itself along with protecting the liberty and lives of subjects and citizens against other subjects or citizens. For this system to work, there needs to be a method of punishment - and of course, being logical we would say that some crimes deserve a spell in prison, others more harsh measures.

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Originally Posted by dbgtz

On the point on death being the ultimate punishment, well it's not really. It happens to everyone at one point therefore is everyone being punished?

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I do not speak of natural death, the point in the death penalty is that is brings forward death - the punishment is that you lose your life just as you took the life of another.

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Originally Posted by dbgtz

And even if it can be seen as punishment, surely having essentially wait for around 15 years (or however long it is), come out with little chance of getting a job which means you'll be living on the streets most likely, living off the bare minimum and then perhaps catch a disease and die. Surely that sounds much worse?

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If you really believe that 'life' in prison in this country is a punishment then I don't know what else to say. What I would say to you however is that rather than us viewing prison as it is from our cushy carefree lives, view prison from the position of a hardened criminal for example - do you really think a criminal who is either a) pure evil or b) has been involved in a hard life of crime for many years - do you think these people will see prison as a punishment?