EU forces elected British government to renege on Queen's Speech promise

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

You can't have a democracy and thus legitimacy without a demos.

Europe does not have a demos.

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You say that a lot in spite of it not being true

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Originally Posted by FlyingJesus

You say that a lot in spite of it not being true

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There's a European demos? Where can I find them?

It is true what I keep repeating by any measurement, even founders of the EU such as Jean Monnet admitted this and knew this hence why they never suggested political union straight after World War II and decided to achieve it via the backdoor (economic union). The founders of the project knew, and admitted if you want the direct quotes, that the peoples of Europe would not accept political union if it were expressly put to them hence why they will still not go for what they really want. Business for Britain has put together a series of essays by historians on this topic: http://forbritain.org/demosessays.pdf

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Originally Posted by Introduction page

It is clear that one of the most pervasive and dangerous claims is that there is a single ‘European demos’. The view, held by some within the EU’s institutions, is that Europeans either share a common political and social identity or that there is a need to reforge an identity that hasn’t existed since the end of the Roman Empire (it was no coincidence that the EU’s founding document was the Treaty of Rome). Thankfully in his Bloomberg Speech, the Prime Minister, David Cameron noted that: “There is not, in my view, a single European demos.” It was a promising step forward, but more needs to be done.

The EU’s official motto is “United in diversity” – a laudable philosophy. Unfortunately, many of the EU’s policies seem intent on crushing that diversity, striving to replace Europe’s many historic identities with a single, artificial ‘European’ culture. As these historians convincingly show, there has always been a European component to our identity but it has never evolved into a ‘demos’. Britain, like the other member states, has its own political, social and economic outlook. Our history has been – and our future almost certainly will be – entangled with that of Europe’s, but we have always retained our own distinct identity.

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If you still disagree with me, then again please show me present or historical evidence that there exists a European demos aka a people. It is impossible to argue for the existance of a European demos on the continent, let alone Britain included which is even more different in culture/outlook to those on the continent.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

There's a European demos? Where can I find them?

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Europe.

And if a "common political and social identity" is what you need for a demos then there isn't a British one either, so it's really a rather self-defeating argument

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Originally Posted by FlyingJesus

Europe.

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Saying a word doesn't make it so.

If I say "Eurasia" does that mean there's a Eurasian people?

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Originally Posted by FlyingJesus

And if a "common political and social identity" is

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Originally Posted by FlyingJesus

what you need for a demos then there isn't a British one either, so it's really a rather self-defeating argument

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Yes there is.

I know you like to think of everyone as a pretty little snowflake cos EvErYoN1 iS UnIqUe but the world doesn't work like that. In politics, the nation state is the biggest political unit a group of similar people can form and which we have formed: in the shape of the United Kingdom. Or France. Or Poland.

I bet when you answer a census/form (written in ENGLISH) you put 'Other' meaning individual. Ohh you are so unique aren't you. The very fact that you dispute there's no British people (aka a demos) but then go on to say 'Europe' is a demos makes you look really really silly. Now be sensible and debate the history.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Saying a word doesn't make it so.

If I say "Eurasia" does that mean there's a Eurasian people?

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Yes. It's not a political group but yes there is a definition of a Eurasian person

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Yes there is.

I know you like to think of everyone as a pretty little snowflake cos EvErYoN1 iS UnIqUe but the world doesn't work like that. In politics, the nation state is the biggest political unit a group of similar people can form and which we have formed: in the shape of the United Kingdom. Or France. Or Poland.

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Or the European Union

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

I bet when you answer a census/form (written in ENGLISH) you put 'Other' meaning individual. Ohh you are so unique aren't you.

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How about just for once in your life you attempt to actually tackle arguments properly instead of making up things that you'd like to be true? No, I do not do that, and I have no intention of ever doing so, so stop being a little brat and learn to read definitions that actually exist

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

The very fact that you dispute there's no British people (aka a demos) but then go on to say 'Europe' is a demos makes you look really really silly. Now be sensible and debate the history.

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I didn't say that though, so once again learn to read. What I said is that if one doesn't exist, the other doesn't either, just by definition. You know, the thing that notes what words mean

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Originally Posted by FlyingJesus

Yes. It's not a political group but yes there is a definition of a Eurasian person

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Yes, like Europe.

Europe is a continent, not a people.

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Or the European Union

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Not so hence why the EU isn't a country and cannot become a country which is my point.

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How about just for once in your life you attempt to actually tackle arguments properly instead of making up things that you'd like to be true? No, I do not do that, and I have no intention of ever doing so, so stop being a little brat and learn to read definitions that actually exist

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Irony.

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Originally Posted by FlyingJesus

I didn't say that though, so once again learn to read. What I said is that if one doesn't exist, the other doesn't either, just by definition. You know, the thing that notes what words mean

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Where is the European demos in history? Where is it today? Can you please actually answer the question for once? You have thus far pointed to nothing that makes up a European demos. Where is the political culture of European conservatism to be found? Where is the European-wide concept of law and what is it exactly? Where is the European ethos of trade and business? Where is the European language? What humour to they share? What clothes do they wear? What architecture do they have? What wars have they fought? What food do they eat? Throughout history and now, I can attribute each of these criteria to the likes of France, Germany, Spain, the Byzantines, the Romans, Great Britain but not so to a thing called 'Europe'.

Now reply properly, not "I eat Italian pasta and can speak some Spanish cos i'm a unique snowflake" sort of argument. Actually try to engage me, along with the historians in the paper I linked to, to show me where there are a European people rather than peoples which is my argument.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Yes, like Europe.

Europe is a continent, not a people.

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That's like saying England/UK is a country, not a people. Oh wait... that's correct. Cheers

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Not so hence why the EU isn't a country and cannot become a country which is my point.

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I don't see the word country included in your weird little redefinition of demos. Could that be because it's irrelevant and a demos doesn't only refer to a country full of people?

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Where is the European demos in history? Where is it today? Can you please actually answer the question for once? You have thus far pointed to nothing that makes up a European demos.

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People, that is what a demos is. The word literally means people. It does not mean "hivemind"

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Where is the European-wide concept of law and what is it exactly? Where is the European ethos of trade and business?

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The EU lol

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Where is the European language?

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Oops Switzerland just ceased to exist

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

What humour to they share? What clothes do they wear? What architecture do they have? What wars have they fought? What food do they eat? Throughout history and now, I can attribute each of these criteria to the likes of France, Germany, Spain, the Byzantines, the Romans, Great Britain but not so to a thing called 'Europe'.

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History is not a very good indicator of the present. If it were, Byzantium (to use your own example) would continue to be an empire, and you're still pretending that everyone in a country is the same person. They're quite clearly not, and it's nothing to do with trying to be ultra unique or anything like that, just plain fact. Did we all vote the same person? Did you wake up at the same time as me today? What are we all having for dinner tonight?

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Now reply properly, not "I eat Italian pasta and can speak some Spanish cos i'm a unique snowflake" sort of argument. Actually try to engage me, along with the historians in the paper I linked to, to show me where there are a European people rather than peoples which is my argument.

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Again can you please stop with the absolute nonsense strawmanning and libel? It really doesn't make you look like anything but an aggressive child with an internet education in conspiracy. I have consistently answered your questions while all you do is repeat the same falsities and warped definitions that don't match up to the real world. I'm not even pro-Europe, I just think you're an idiot who needs to learn how to debate properly

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Yes, like Europe.

Europe is a continent, not a people.

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Well it is, I'm european, therefore there's a european people (I'm also eurasian all though that's less relevant).

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Originally Posted by FlyingJesus

History is not a very good indicator of the present.

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In the words of the late Kenneth Williams, "Oh what's the bloody point?".

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Originally Posted by Chippiewill

Well it is, I'm european, therefore there's a european people (I'm also eurasian all though that's less relevant).

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It doesn't mean there's a European people or a demos though, Europe is merely a geographical concept. It's like if I, you and some intellectuals came up with an idea (ring any bells?) called pan-Atlanticism and stated that Britain, Norway, America, Spain and Canada were inhabited by a similar people called the Atlantics (a made up people): that wouldn't mean it existed or that you could create a viable democracy or nation state out of it as anybody knows, despite what we may claim about our new great idea, that there's no such thing as an Atlantic culture or people. There's peoples and cultures in the Atantic region, but not a people: just like Europe, Eurasia, Asia, Arabia, Africa or North America. The peoples who inhabit Europe are French, Dutch, Italian and British: not some vague notion of European.

For historical examples (if you believe on history, unlike Tom) see the Sovietism, pan-Slavic (Yugoslavia), Iberianism, the Kalmar Union.

Arguably Britain is a geographical concept which means people in Wales, Scotland and England - we say British to usually mean these people and not including Northern Ireland.

I would say Europe has a demos, albeit hard to determine. With Schengen people can easily move around the EU and identify as European with no regard to their home nation.