SNP's Nicola Sturgeon announces she is to publish a second referendum bill next week

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

great so why did you vote to stay last time

ohhhh yeah because of the money we throw at you. make SURE you personally vote out next time and enjoy Euroland x

"Greece without the sun" I hear you'll be known as :)

---

this is the exact attitude which causes the resentment in the first place, openly shouting how much of a burden scotland and NI are to you

why do you care so much for their reasoning behind their vote? who are you to say if they're true unionists or not, your phrasing of 'it benefits them' is sloppy and fails to express whatever opinion you're trying to give :rolleyes:

ps if i was scottish i'd vote to stay in :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wixard

this is the exact attitude which causes the resentment in the first place, openly shouting how much of a burden scotland and NI are to you

---

yes i know all that. but there's only so much whinging one can take from Nicola and her gang

which brings me onto....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wixard

why do you care so much for their reasoning behind their vote? who are you to say if they're true unionists or not, your phrasing of 'it benefits them' is sloppy and fails to express whatever opinion you're trying to give :rolleyes:

---

because they should vote with their true beliefs and not how much money they can get out of it. i want Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales to be part of my Kingdom because I believe in the Union as an ideal. whether England benefits or loses from this in terms of net billions doesn't particularly bother me as it isn't about money for me just as being in the EU wasn't about costs vs benefits in terms of money hence why i always said i'd of voted out even if the EU was handing us £350m a day to be in it.

but when i hear the constant moaning about how they hate us or how they're gonna threaten to leave then let them leave if that's what they want deep down and go and be subsidised (and ruled) by France and Germany.

WHICH IS WHY i put in italics at the bottom of my thread starter that i know the majority of Scots aren't like Sturgeon.

- - - Updated - - -




@wixard;

i saw you'd like my post so catch my drift on what i'm trying to say

and i'd add to it that it annoys and gets me down even more because i regard myself as British first and foremost above all. i'm 100% committed as a unionist. i defend the Union on here. i fly the flags of england, scotland, northern ireland and wales from my flagpole on national days. i have some family members/friends who are more or less English nationalists and i try defend the Union all the time to them but they're now full of resentment now because this cow and her lunatic fringe who don't even want real (non EU) independence keep stirring it up all the time.

so when i see likes of scot who just say "i hate the english" it's so damn demoralising.

i respect what you've said and that it reflects your own ideals/values

i just think you're in a minority when it comes to money and the economy, therefore i think it's harsh to say that people voting out for financial/economical reasons are being ridiculous or are only doing it because 'they didn't get their own way'

I don't know why you're saying they shouldn't vote based on "how much money they can get". Money is a big part of every referendum (£350 million to the NHS or this lovely piece) or any election (tax cuts etc). Everybody is in it for themselves and when it came to the EU referendum, I would assume they thought they'd be better off financially or will soon be. The vast majority of people don't give a stuff about identity or basically anyone else outside their own family, they just want the best for themselves. Are they wrong for wanting that? No. Are they often mislead? Almost certainly.

More specifically to the thread, it's no surprise she's pushing for this. As far as I have seen it, the leaders of the SNP will jump at any opportunity for independence and in my opinion is just an attempt at a power grab. They're a nasty populist party as far as I am concerned who simply want to seize it for themselves. That's not to say I believe those who want independent are like that, as that's you can't generalise like that in the same way you can't generalise all Brexiters to be racist. However, I will say that you probably could generalise and say most of them are uneducated on the subject for any referendum.

I hope May gives the power of "Brexit" to Parliament. I hope Parliament reject it. I hope this independence bill doesn't go through because of this, but I can still see them pushing for it even if no "Brexit".

On a side note, I kind of do want to see what happens. Oil was a big topic the last time around and it was probably the biggest topic they could talk about, except possibly Trident. Interesting to see where they will take it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dbgtz

I don't know why you're saying they shouldn't vote based on "how much money they can get". Money is a big part of every referendum (£350 million to the NHS or this lovely piece) or any election (tax cuts etc). Everybody is in it for themselves and when it came to the EU referendum, I would assume they thought they'd be better off financially or will soon be. The vast majority of people don't give a stuff about identity or basically anyone else outside their own family, they just want the best for themselves. Are they wrong for wanting that? No. Are they often mislead? Almost certainly.

---

If you had looked at any research on what drove votes in the EU referendum then you would know the £350m had little effect. The big drivers of the vote were identity, sovereignty and immigration - all of which is linked. There's masses of research out there backing up the motivations of voters in the referendum and it is a fantasy of bitter remainers that the £350m bus motto somehow stole victory from you. It didn't. You had the entire establishment on your side and you still lost - because factors you could not answer (immigration) or were beyond your control (sovereignty/identity) could not be ovecome.

That's why your side lost. And don't just take it from me listen to what those behind the Remain campaign say.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dbgtz

More specifically to the thread, it's no surprise she's pushing for this. As far as I have seen it, the leaders of the SNP will jump at any opportunity for independence and in my opinion is just an attempt at a power grab. They're a nasty populist party as far as I am concerned who simply want to seize it for themselves. That's not to say I believe those who want independent are like that, as that's you can't generalise like that in the same way you can't generalise all Brexiters to be racist. However, I will say that you probably could generalise and say most of them are uneducated on the subject for any referendum.

---

I have said countless times to the likes of @Lewis; that whilst I do not agree with Scottish independence as a concept it is not a wrong one and can be seen as noble. My issue especially with the SNP version of independence is that independence is impossible whilst also remaining a member of the European Union. I cannot understand how she can argue for more of a say by being independent from the UK (56/650 seats with devolution) when she wants to sign up to the EU (something like 4/600 seats with constant powers being transferred to Brussels). It's illogical.

Gladly seeing as we're leaving the EU she's going to have to now advocate joining the Euro in a referendum campaign.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dbgtz

I hope May gives the power of "Brexit" to Parliament. I hope Parliament reject it. I hope this independence bill doesn't go through because of this, but I can still see them pushing for it even if no "Brexit".

---

Hang on what? You want Parliament to override the biggest democratic mandate we've had in our history?

And the SNP actually can't put this bill through. Constitutional affairs are reserved for Westminster alone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dbgtz

On a side note, I kind of do want to see what happens. Oil was a big topic the last time around and it was probably the biggest topic they could talk about, except possibly Trident. Interesting to see where they will take it.

---

Oil is on the floor so she doesn't have that magic money pot anymore. As for Trident, the last poll I saw on the topic had most Scottish people supporting it so again she's running out of options in regards to those two 'big' issues.

Interesting that most Scots don't want a re-run of the 2014 vote so I say let's give it to her post-Brexit.

In September we found 50% of Scots would oppose holding #indyref2, compared to 37% who would support it https://t.co/hqUpz20ETN

— YouGov (@YouGov) October 13, 2016

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

If you had looked at any research on what drove votes in the EU referendum then you would know the £350m had little effect. The big drivers of the vote were identity, sovereignty and immigration - all of which is linked. There's masses of research out there backing up the motivations of voters in the referendum and it is a fantasy of bitter remainers that the £350m bus motto somehow stole victory from you. It didn't. You had the entire establishment on your side and you still lost - because factors you could not answer (immigration) or were beyond your control (sovereignty/identity) could not be ovecome.

That's why your side lost. And don't just take it from me listen to what those behind the Remain campaign say.

---

They are not inherently linked. If I voted for it based on immigration, I might simply blame immigrants for my low pay or cuts to public services. Nothing to do with identity and sovereignty there.

Please don't say "you" as if I'm a big remainer. I literally changed from spoiling the paper to remain at the booth.

Pretty sure also the media was general for Brexit so...

Quote:

---

I have said countless times to the likes of @Lewis; that whilst I do not agree with Scottish independence as a concept it is not a wrong one and can be seen as noble. My issue especially with the SNP version of independence is that independence is impossible whilst also remaining a member of the European Union. I cannot understand how she can argue for more of a say by being independent from the UK (56/650 seats with devolution) when she wants to sign up to the EU (something like 4/600 seats with constant powers being transferred to Brussels). It's illogical.

Gladly seeing as we're leaving the EU she's going to have to now advocate joining the Euro in a referendum campaign.

---

I will point out that, at the very least, Scotland would be able to veto a lot of things in the EU which is arguably more than they can do currently. But yes they do have a bigger say (arguably disproportional too) in the UK as a whole.

Arguably, the EU might treat Scotland as the successor state to the UK and they will get our quite frankly comfortable deal, but I imgine that is unlikely.

Quote:

---

Hang on what? You want Parliament to override the biggest democratic mandate we've had in our history?

And the SNP actually can't put this bill through. Constitutional affairs are reserved for Westminster alone.

---

Yes I want the Parliament we voted in to do the job it's supposed to do, isn't that basically what you keep banging on about with sovereignty? I want the people who actually do this for a living to make the right decision. I want them to acknowledge what a shit show the whole thing was, which it quite frankly was. It was full of lies, it was full of fear and ultimately we're currently all worse off (partially) because of it.

Would you hire an electrician to install plumbing?

Quote:

---

Oil is on the floor so she doesn't have that magic money pot anymore. As for Trident, the last poll I saw on the topic had most Scottish people supporting it so again she's running out of options in regards to those two 'big' issues.

Interesting that most Scots don't want a re-run of the 2014 vote so I say let's give it to her post-Brexit.

In September we found 50% of Scots would oppose holding #indyref2, compared to 37% who would support it https://t.co/hqUpz20ETN

— YouGov (@YouGov) October 13, 2016

---

It's all about spin, so just because of a poll last month doesn't mean it won't change in 2 years.

Tbh this is all hypothetical as I don't think there'll be a 2nd referendum for a long time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

or be a lamp shade

---

What

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dbgtz

They are not inherently linked. If I voted for it based on immigration, I might simply blame immigrants for my low pay or cuts to public services. Nothing to do with identity and sovereignty there.

Please don't say "you" as if I'm a big remainer. I literally changed from spoiling the paper to remain at the booth.

---

And if people did vote Leave because of mass immigration so what?

Who the hell are you people to void people's votes based on what you consider a reasonable argument?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dbgtz

I will point out that, at the very least, Scotland would be able to veto a lot of things in the EU which is arguably more than they can do currently. But yes they do have a bigger say (arguably disproportional too) in the UK as a whole.

---

And Scotland would have to accept the principle of 'ever closer union' aka less independence and eventually none.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dbgtz

Arguably, the EU might treat Scotland as the successor state to the UK and they will get our quite frankly comfortable deal, but I imgine that is unlikely.

---

No legal basis for it.

Sturgeon travelled around the EU after the vote and basically had the door shut in her face. An independent Scotland wouldn't be a successor state in international law and would have to join the Euro and the rest of the circus.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dbgtz

Yes I want the Parliament we voted in to do the job it's supposed to do, isn't that basically what you keep banging on about with sovereignty? I want the people who actually do this for a living to make the right decision. I want them to acknowledge what a shit show the whole thing was, which it quite frankly was. It was full of lies, it was full of fear and ultimately we're currently all worse off (partially) because of it.

Would you hire an electrician to install plumbing?

---

So in other words you're still in the denial stage of grief.

And yes I do keep banging on about sovereignty: the same Parliament that handed over the powers to the EU that belong to we the people with treaty after treaty and they did not once consult us despite numerous pledges to give us a say on the issue. It is our turn now to ignore them as they have done with us. In any case, I expect May will go the the country if Parliament does attempt to block and will win a 100+ seat majority.

I will also add a warning: you speak of a shitstorm because you did not get your way and that's fair enough as you're naturally unhappy with the result. However, if Parliament dares to ignore the will of the people then quite frankly violence could be justified. You have no idea of the forces/elements you're risking unleashing if you block the will of the people.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dbgtz

It's all about spin, so just because of a poll last month doesn't mean it won't change in 2 years.

---

Indeed but that is how opinion stands now.

- - - Updated - - -

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Inseriousity.

Tbh this is all hypothetical as I don't think there'll be a 2nd referendum for a long time.

---

The problem is that she [Sturgeon] could be whipping up a momentum that will be unstoppable even if she doesn't mean it.

That's why I say it is worth Westminster maybe outplaying her and holding the referendum itself. And wouldn't it be funny to hold the referendum on the terms she demanded for the EU referendum? IE a UK-wide vote with a veto from England/Wales/Northern Ireland. :P Now that would be fun to see. You wanted a confederal referendum model Nicola well there you go!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

yes i know all that. but there's only so much whinging one can take from Nicola and her gang

which brings me onto....



because they should vote with their true beliefs and not how much money they can get out of it. i want Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales to be part of my Kingdom because I believe in the Union as an ideal. whether England benefits or loses from this in terms of net billions doesn't particularly bother me as it isn't about money for me just as being in the EU wasn't about costs vs benefits in terms of money hence why i always said i'd of voted out even if the EU was handing us £350m a day to be in it.

but when i hear the constant moaning about how they hate us or how they're gonna threaten to leave then let them leave if that's what they want deep down and go and be subsidised (and ruled) by France and Germany.

WHICH IS WHY i put in italics at the bottom of my thread starter that i know the majority of Scots aren't like Sturgeon.

- - - Updated - - -




@wixard;

i saw you'd like my post so catch my drift on what i'm trying to say

and i'd add to it that it annoys and gets me down even more because i regard myself as British first and foremost above all. i'm 100% committed as a unionist. i defend the Union on here. i fly the flags of england, scotland, northern ireland and wales from my flagpole on national days. i have some family members/friends who are more or less English nationalists and i try defend the Union all the time to them but they're now full of resentment now because this cow and her lunatic fringe who don't even want real (non EU) independence keep stirring it up all the time.

so when i see likes of scot who just say "i hate the english" it's so damn demoralising.

---

It's scott not scot

- - - Updated - - -

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dbgtz

I don't know why you're saying they shouldn't vote based on "how much money they can get". Money is a big part of every referendum (£350 million to the NHS or this lovely piece) or any election (tax cuts etc). Everybody is in it for themselves and when it came to the EU referendum, I would assume they thought they'd be better off financially or will soon be. The vast majority of people don't give a stuff about identity or basically anyone else outside their own family, they just want the best for themselves. Are they wrong for wanting that? No. Are they often mislead? Almost certainly.

More specifically to the thread, it's no surprise she's pushing for this. As far as I have seen it, the leaders of the SNP will jump at any opportunity for independence and in my opinion is just an attempt at a power grab. They're a nasty populist party as far as I am concerned who simply want to seize it for themselves. That's not to say I believe those who want independent are like that, as that's you can't generalise like that in the same way you can't generalise all Brexiters to be racist. However, I will say that you probably could generalise and say most of them are uneducated on the subject for any referendum.

I hope May gives the power of "Brexit" to Parliament. I hope Parliament reject it. I hope this independence bill doesn't go through because of this, but I can still see them pushing for it even if no "Brexit".

On a side note, I kind of do want to see what happens. Oil was a big topic the last time around and it was probably the biggest topic they could talk about, except possibly Trident. Interesting to see where they will take it.

---

I'm all for trident, rip oil.