there is no real vegan pasta because so many animals die in the harvesting of wheat. the only way to not kill/harm any animals in your diet is to live off home grown organic fruit, vegetables and nuts.
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there is no real vegan pasta because so many animals die in the harvesting of wheat. the only way to not kill/harm any animals in your diet is to live off home grown organic fruit, vegetables and nuts.
How can a vegan drive a car? Use a light? Have hot water?
Arent fuels dead animals from thousands of years ago?
Yep except coal, so they can have a coal powered car, house etc :P I think natural gas comes from the oil, but I am not 100% certain. Maybe the extreme environmentalists are vegan? The ones that don't ride/drive anything or eat much. Afterall bike tyres, car tyres are rubber which has come from an animal (I think). You can tell my knowledge of science has died out over the years :PQuote:
Originally Posted by LeftForDead
1. How do you know animals feel pain differently?Quote:
Originally Posted by GommeInc
2. Not all animals are killed instantly.
Wont Vegans be like weak / fell weak / be ill all the time :s
That's sick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgin Mary
1. Because they are not self-aware like we are. Most animals do not know how to self-analyze like we do. An example I just looked up on Wikipedia.org involves shining a dot on an animals forehead. Humans (passed a certain age), apes etc reach for their forehead, rather than the mirror because they can analyze the dot appearing on them, than the mirror image.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saurav
Cows, pigs, chickens, turkeys etc all feel pain differently to us and do not perceive pain in a similar way. Some animal rights twits tput themselves in the animals position, and do not realise that they may feel pain differently and know what is going on. If it was the case, an animal (or animals) would fight back, but they simply stand there "/
2. Most are. It's only poorly handled places that kill them off poorly now.
Also, most vegans are. Only some actually feel healthy. It depends on the type of diet, if you don't like one thing, you're screwed. If you eat a variety of things with the same nutrients, you're safe.
Animals can feel pain, though not EVERY animal feels pain i believe, insects can't feel pain:Quote:
Originally Posted by Saurav
quite interesting:
http://www.wellcome.ac.uk/en/pain/mi.../culture2.html
and nah vegans can live full healthy lives from birth all the way to death, reducing dairy has been shown to reduce the build up of cholesterol and chances of osteoporosis- also calcium can be obtained from green leafy plants :)
I'm transitioning into veganism myself at the moment.. quitting cheese is really hard though.. quit meat literally overnight but cheese BAH! :(:P
Also gomme:
Well-known vegan sports people include:Carl lewis.. yeah.. such a sickly weakling...
- Sally Eastall, marathon runner
- Keith Holmes, former world champion middleweight boxer
- Carl Lewis, winner of nine Olympic Gold Medals and one of the greatest athletes of the twentieth century
- Martina Navratilova, champion tennis player - one of the most successful tennis players in history
- Dave Scott, six-time Ironman Champion and first inductee into the Ironman Hall of Fame
- Lucy Stephens, triathlete
also from wikipedia that you love..
Quote:
Benefits
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...yramid.svg.png http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/co...gnify-clip.png
Vegan version of the nutritional food pyramid which normally includes meat and animal products.
Certain widespread diets (such as the standard American diet, which is high in fat and low in fiber and green vegetables) are detrimental to health, and a vegan diet thus represents an improvement,[52][53] in part because vegan diets are often high enough in fruit and vegetables to meet or exceed the recommended fruit and vegetable intakes. Conversely, studies in Japan found that increased consumption of some animal products coincided with a decrease in risk for some forms of cerebrovascular disease and stroke mortality.[54]
Some vegans feel additional health benefits are gained by eating food with minimal levels of substances such as growth hormones and antibiotics, which are often given to intensively farmed animals in countries where this is legal.[55] Because they are similar to human hormones, growth-promoters such as anabolic steroids that are used in cattle farming in America may affect fetal and childhood development.[56][57][58] Due to this uncertainty, the use of such growth promoters is illegal in the European community.[59]
Benefits of vegetarian diets are sometimes also valid for strict vegan diets: according to the American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada, diets that avoid meat tend to have lower levels of saturated fat, cholesterol, and animal protein, and higher levels of carbohydrates, fiber, magnesium, potassium, folate, and antioxidants, such as vitamins C and E, and phytochemicals.[60] People who avoid meat are reported to have lower body mass indices than those following the average Canadian diet; from this follows lower death rates from ischemic heart disease; lower blood cholesterol levels; lower blood pressure; and lower rates of hypertension, type 2 diabetes, and prostate and colon cancer.[60]
The American Dietetic Association states that well-planned vegan diets can also be appropriate for life cycles requiring high nutritional intake such as pregnancy, lactation, childhood, and adolescence.[60]
A pilot study at Georgetown University on 2005 suggested that a vegan diet can reduce blood cholesterol in people with type 2 diabetes, as well as significantly reduce the complications of this disease.[61]
Vegan athletes compete in a variety of sports, including powerlifting, bodybuilding, martial arts, and long distance running.[62][63] Multiple Olympic gold medallist Carl Lewis has stated that he became vegan in 1990 and achieved his "best year of track competition" in 1991 when he ate a vegan diet.[64]
I said it varies according to what vegans eat, because they're vegans means you have a smaller variety of sources for nutrients while with a full diet, you have more. Meat isn't fattening, that argument was made up by some dumb vegan/vegetarian who forgot that fat was fattening, not the meat itself. Most dairy products are fattening, except for hundreds of products proven to reduce cholesterol.
Also, wikipedia provides information which can collide with other information. It is only a source, while experience and reason makes the argument go for further by using that information as a guide and combining it with other sources. I believe it was you, was it not, that made up the dumb theory that ALL meat is fattening? I provided proof that the 'fattiest' meat, beef wasn't fattening in terms of large amounts of fat and eating it would make you chunkier than Peter off of Family Guy "/ It was around 14% of your daily allowance of fats, and that was a 3oz steak which is enough to feel you up for dinner and was cooked in oil which added towards it aswell, I believe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_pyramid
Also, again your argument is not with this country. Cattle is dealt with alot differently in the UK than the US, they're by far worse than the UK at treating animals and cooking.
Also, your signature makes me laugh. You can make peace at a buffet where meat is served the same with just vegetables and pasta. There can be peace and harmony wiuth animal slaughter "/
I don't really care what anyone eats except myself, but hate how veganism is taken on like a religion that has to be preached. I don't see what's immoral about eating animal products other than how some industries choose to gain them. If a cow isn't milked it can become infected and a chicken laying an unfertilised egg is like a woman having her period. There is no cruelty in the basic concept. Eat what you like but don't try and justify it with skewed ideas.
I still disagree. Science cant proove everything. How do you know the pain they feel isn't worse? As long as they have (damn forgot what its called. sensitive cells / nerons or whatever), they can feel pain.Quote:
Originally Posted by GommeInc
Hmm yeah.. but it's the moral reasons behind it really- ie: for a cow to produce milk it needs to produce young or be producing young, nearly all of the calves birthed are then put into a tiny box so their flesh goes pale etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgin Mary
Also with chickens, they have to fertilise some of the eggs (not put into production of cause) to produce more hens- the males get killed as they're of no real use most of the time, then you can move onto battery hens =/
But meh.. I suppose when somebody sees such corruption and injustice in the world they want to do something about it but that's just my opinion on it.
Gomme, please.. original... material.. you've used that fat argument about 10 times already throughout a variety of threads everytime overlooking that i was basing my "fat" argument on the typical diet where they don't *obviously* cut the fat out, get it now?
There can be peace with killing.. wha? Sorry you've lostme..Quote:
Also, your signature makes me laugh. You can make peace at a buffet where meat is served the same with just vegetables and pasta. There can be peace and harmony wiuth animal slaughter "/
seriously, idc.
you only live once; its part of a healthy lifestyle and if you didnt kill them they'd overbreed and we'd be swamped with them. im sure they dont really care if their fellow cow gets killed and put on my plate. theyre not as superior as us, therefore they dont need the same rights as us, sure, they have some and theyre in a manageable environment.
so who really cares? stop spending your life looking after animals or w/e when your not actually going to get anything in return, if you dont like it then dont go about preaching about how we are in the wrong, because your annoying and make yourself look stupid. if you think so seriously about it you wouldnt just be sat here at a computer. get outside & do something about it..
Well considering we overbreed them to kill them then no they wouldn't overbreed they'd goto a normal population size over time but they've been selectively bread so they produce to much milk for their calves.Quote:
Originally Posted by velocity
and the rest.. just lol... in an honest opinion if you want to eat meat eat it, sadly it's been too much indented into the status quo we can't do an incredble amount, and "preaching" is just stating facts and correcting people when they make out that vegans/vegetarians are a bunch of sickly people..
and i've been out all week. hence the long replies?
Maybe you should go out and relieve abit of anger..
yeah, give me a gun and a few vegetarians who think eating meat is so violent and i'll show them the true meaning.
I'm glad you've accepted your wrong, and there isn't alot of fat in meat even if you don't cut it out, unless you have a few ozs of the stuff drooping off it. It also seems to be the main argument you have with meat, suggesting it is incredibly unhealthy. It isn't, it is the opposite.Quote:
Gomme, please.. original... material.. you've used that fat argument about 10 times already throughout a variety of threads everytime overlooking that i was basing my "fat" argument on the typical diet where they don't *obviously* cut the fat out, get it now?
They're animals, they're food "/ You must be pretty simple minded to think killing an animal can disrupt harmony and peace.Quote:
There can be peace with killing.. wha? Sorry you've lostme..
It also isn't 'immoral' to kill an animal. We can eat them and it isn't wrong unless you relate yourself with the 'pain' it is going through, which is a sadist approach to it. Maybe all vegetarians and vegans that dislike animals being eaten are just sadists?
The science behind it has given some idea as to what the animal goes through. Psycholigcally, it really doesn't have a clue, it hasn't got the awareness of it's surroundings and itself as much as a human or another type of animal which is self-aware (apes, dolphins, elephants etc). But then again science can be wrong, but it seems more probable that the animal is obviously feeling pain, but not to the extent we are and they cannot associate other thoughts like a sharp object, or watching an animal before it get killed and imagine it happening to itself. ANother rreason why cattle, pigs etc are said to not really know what is going on, because it lacks the association of ideas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saurav
Gomme i fullwell accept that if you cut the fat out then it makes it less harmful, it wasn't what i was getting at, if you look at the consumption of meat in say the united states (another country yes i know but we all live on this world together) it's just ridiculous, the amount of meat they eat is huge also, all that stuff rotting in your colon.. yum ^^ but meh.
Also: my main argument isn't with the health of meat, more with how we treat the animals before slaughter and at slaughter is my main concern, although it's been proven by the american diet association that cutting out meat has health benefits but alas, if you have meat in moderation (not just meat and two veg) then you'd be living alot healthier anyhow.
As i've stated before, i believe humans are primary vegetarians with the ability to eat meat in case of dire need (such as the boomeh[sp] tribe) they live mainly vegetarian but eat the blood of the cattle (a knife stuck into a vein, not actually killing the animal) they'll only kill them in dire famine etc.
And the second point comes down to morales.. i personally believe animals do feel pain whether it be mental or physical, cattle have been noted to experience very bad stress when they enter slaugter houses and see dead cattle around them, could that be seen as stress or just an instinctual warning to get out.. either way science can't prove it all until we get some sort of animal mind reading equipment ^^
Also one point, did you know chickens are as intelligent as most primates? So could they be seen as self aware and thus they feel pain when slaughtered?
I accept it when people choose a different lifestyle, if they claim there's a moral reasoning to it then I really don't care. It's when they impose their beliefs onto others that really bothers me. When I eat meat I am not "pro-slaughter-to-various-animals", I'm simply in need of a good meal. Separating indifference to intentional cruelty is what's important here.
Ah the American diet makes me sick, I can eat meat yes, but I wouldn't actually want that much... I do like a mixture of everything. I think there was a show on ages ago that studied American people and they prodded what came out and apparently it wasnt very pretty. This was someone that ate far too much cake, kebabs, beef and it was all the cheap, badly prepared meat on top of that. So I can see why a vegetarian diet may make them healthier... Thankfully Europe and the UK are actually sorting out the issues with the preparation of meat and how the animals are treated, although it seems that there will always be some farms doing something wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezzie.
Which is what I tend to do. I wouldn't eat just meat, it gets pretty sickly in the stomach which is why a mixture makes it digest easier and I do feel alot healthier eating a mixture of food. I seem to feel yucky without meat, but apparently my health requires a meat included diet along the lines. Whether that is true or not I don't know. I belive it was you who said something that you had to eat meat because it made you ill? My cousin is like that, but she doesn't mind helping prepare a meal which includes meat, she just can't stomach it.Quote:
Also: my main argument isn't with the health of meat, more with how we treat the animals before slaughter and at slaughter is my main concern, although it's been proven by the american diet association that cutting out meat has health benefits but alas, if you have meat in moderation (not just meat and two veg) then you'd be living alot healthier anyhow.
It's sort of a culture clash now it seems, I think because we've evolved in this country to have a meat included diet (for the obvious ones that can eat meat or do rather) we can make it readily available, while to a tribe such as the Boomeh (sp :P) it isn't as easy to come by and they find it easier to grow crops and drink milk which they mix with the blood, which is making the animal last longer. Even though the thought of just cutting a vein makes me slightly ill for some strange reason :SQuote:
As i've stated before, i believe humans are primary vegetarians with the ability to eat meat in case of dire need (such as the boomeh[sp] tribe) they live mainly vegetarian but eat the blood of the cattle (a knife stuck into a vein, not actually killing the animal) they'll only kill them in dire famine etc.
It's weird because there is no real answer, they feel pain, but no one actually knows if it is the same pain as we do and whether or not they associate the animal infront dying with what they may experience within a matter of seconds. If they let it suffer, then I disagree, I am all for a happy organic life before hand (and I tend to buy meat from animals which have eaten organic feed etc) but all this intense farming makes the meat taste differently and sometimes discusting because of how it suffered. Whether or not is felt anything at the time is really out of the case.Quote:
And the second point comes down to morales.. i personally believe animals do feel pain whether it be mental or physical, cattle have been noted to experience very bad stress when they enter slaugter houses and see dead cattle around them, could that be seen as stress or just an instinctual warning to get out.. either way science can't prove it all until we get some sort of animal mind reading equipment ^^
Urrrgh, I now need to think back to my Philosophy lessons. It depends in what way they are intelligent, like parrots can talk, but they're really just recording and playing back what someone has said to them, rather than forming real words or remembering them (although some breeds of parrot do remember things forever, some don't). I suppose if they were self-aware, they would do something to stop the harm of themselves and others. It's a weird subject to revolve around, I kinda slipped into sleep when it came to it :PQuote:
Also one point, did you know chickens are as intelligent as most primates? So could they be seen as self aware and thus they feel pain when slaughtered?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GommeInc
thanks ily2
anyway
we get our prot from fruit and vegibals.
I don't care if this is an old thread - it's on the first page anyway.
I just like laughing at these threads, everyone says they're vegetarian because they don't like the thought of animals being killed.
I think vegetarians are pathetic. Yes, I said pathetic.
Vegans on the other hand, I have no problem with - it's their beliefs, their life, they can do what they want with it.
Vegans cut meat and all produce that comes from animals out all together, because they feel it's wrong. Vegetarians are just doing a half-assed job, and are quite hypocritical IMO. How can someone be against killing/mistreating of animals and still eat/drink cheese/milk/eggs/fish etc? The animals are still being bred to serve that purpose - and will probably end up being slaughtered.
I also wonder how many people on this thread that claim to be vegan/vegetarian wear clothing/shoes made from animal parts, or eat crisps/sweets with animal produce in (not just dairy chocolate, most sweets&crisps contain something that came from an animal)
To conclude - vegetarians are stupid, vegans have the right to believe whatever they want
Oh yeah, you can live perfectly healthy eating meat or not eating meat, you just find other sources of nutrients.
One last thing - PETA is the devil in disguise. They blatantly use propaganda and celebrities to intice the gullable and young.
WOOHOO FOR LATE NIGHT RAMBLING.
Good points to be honest, as i said previously i'm going into veganism now, for some it's a long journey, over like 10 years, but meh, they're still cutting out abit of cruelty, also you're not taking notice of vegans/vegetarians who do it for health reasons. The hardest bit for me going vegan is cheese, but i've quit that for 2 weeks and going strong! ^_^ About the clothes etc, currently i wear leather trainers, absolutely despise them but going to wait till they wear out or i can give them to a mate: anyway: one could say that all the chemical processes used to make artificial shoes (forgot the word- tiredness) would actually harm more animals than buying a leather pair of trainers but *shrug*Quote:
Originally Posted by Rashelly
i think i've said it before, but the only way you can really be nice to animals is to live off homegrown organic fruit and vegetables and walk around naked and dirty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezzie.
Quote:
Originally Posted by liquid
Hmm i wouldn't say that.. i think you can make clothes out of hemp and such.