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I really don't understand how anyone can think that being gay is a choice.
Why would anyone choose to be possibly alienated and bullied by their family, friends, society in general?
They wouldn't, which is why most remain in the closet for long periods of time.
This was a talked about topic in my sociology class and my professor told us why not let us pick what we want to wear as kids? For instance he told us how this 4 year old boy wanted to wear a dress to school and his parents didn't let him. Our professor then went into detail on his parents should of let him he is only four. Another is how we distinct colors to gender like if a baby is wearing pink then its defined a girl and if a baby wears blue it's defined being a boy. I feel like you should let your kids choose what they want to do and be who they want to be, however they're limits to this.
I would argue that that would count under gender orientation (is gender orientation a thing?) rather than sexual orientation. I dont know that much about gender as I've always been happy as a female and that's that.Quote:
Originally Posted by .ExtremeSlayer
Sent from phone
Disagree but what do you think the limits to it are?Quote:
Originally Posted by .ExtremeSlayer
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
What is this weak parenting that is so trendy? "Let your kids wear what they want" erm no the children will wear what I as the parent will want them to wear.
It's bad enough that people think dressing boys as girls is normal in anyway yet on top of that they want to be sissies to their own children as well by not instilling any concept of order into the child by making sure that they know you as the parent decides. I am the parent and I will decide what you wear. End of.
Your children are being sent to boarding school on their fifth birthdays, joining the army at 17 and are being expected to die for their country by the age of 21 aren't they.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
You can tell your kid what to wear and they'll probably do it when they set out of the house in the morning. But whatever you send them out of the house in will in no way resemble what they come home in because they're kids and they'll cover themselves in all sorts, pick at their hair all day, and kick off and forget about their shoes at the earlier opportunity.
But as soon as that child hits 13 there is absolutely no ******* way they will wear what you tell them. In fact, if you tell you them they can't wear a dress they will deliberately go out of their way to find a dress just to piss you off. Teenagers are not dogs. Tell them to sit and they'll make sure they never sit down again.
My children won't grow up spoilt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Empired
My children will have manners.
My children will respect authority.
My children will know right from wrong.
My children will be proud of their area and their country.
That's right. I realise in 2015 that is totally uncool and so not trendy, but hey they'll thank me when they reach my age.
You confuse teenagers with what I am talking about, children.Quote:
Originally Posted by Empired
But I won't have a spoilt brat as a teenager in my house either. My house, my rules.
"Am I friends with my children? No. I'm not your friend, i'm your parent."
He and his partner are the best argument for gay adoption I have ever seen.
I wish you luck with this approach. I really do but I can't help but worry that the approach you're taking is pretty much loveless.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
And I don't understand why you're not talking about children AND teenagers. Surely your kids are going to grow up to become teenagers? Or are you hoping they're gonna wake up on their 13th birthday but wow! they're 20!? Unless you're planning to "bring them up" (I use the term loosely here) until they're 12 and then just kick them out.
But seriously, good luck with that. Children aren't brainless robots you can program your beliefs into. Kids AND teenagers make mistakes, and they deliberately undermine authority just because they ******* well can. Expecting them to be perfect little clones doesn't mean they will be, and you'd be a daft to think that they will.
To me what is 'loveless' is allowing a child to get into a position where he or she is taking drugs. What is 'loveless' is having a child who has no manners and no respect for his or her elders. What is 'loveless' is not drumming what I listed above into them as they are the next generation: they are the future.Quote:
Originally Posted by Empired
Oh of course, and that is the challenge of parenting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Empired
But my parents kept me in line whenever I stepped out of it, mainly via smacking, as I would the same.
You're right kids with strict parents never act out and turn to drugs or anything
I don't know that much about it either but this was told by my professor! And he made some valid points!Quote:
Originally Posted by Empired
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This was told by my professor but I think his only point was let your children be who they want to be, if they want to be gay let them be gay, if they want to be bi let them be bi, etc. I think his point was if your child wants to be who they want to be let them be it, it can almost define who they want to be as a person. For instance, if a girl wanted to wear boy clothes and later on became older and realized she liked girls she should be able to do so. I hope this makes sense. I might be messing up somewhere but limits is tough to go into detail about because not every parent is the same with their children so I couldn't answer that!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle
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Yeah see this comes into play to as well! This can go both ways for sure! Trust me as a parent I would want my child dressing as his or her gender but if they got older and my daughter turned out to be bi I would accept her choices (with what I was saying having to be dressed the opposite gender could cause your child to like the same sex) Like I said I don't know much but it's what my professor talked about in a debate.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
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I agree with everything you're saying. 100 percent agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
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I was raised well with manners and as a kid I was spanked if I did wrong so I agree as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingJesus
I was being sarcastic, well done on missing that...
The vision of the overprotected stigmatised child throwing caution to the wind and becoming a meth addict or whatever is so obvious a human trait that it's become a trope. The harder you try to reign them in the harder they push away; I have several personal contacts who I used to be extremely close to but have no links with now because their militant parents drove them to a life of animalistic damagedamagedamage and it's actually scary to see what these people have turned out like - note that my reticence with regards to proximity with these contacts is down to what they have become rather who they were as children.
Some people seem to think that the only options are hippie free love or absolute regimental life, but there is this magical world in between which we call "reality", where you take situations as they come and don't just subscribe to an Ayn Rand/George Orwelll/Aldous Huxley/insert name here fictitious dogma. Literature attached to these names are very interesting and well worth looking into, but they all in their own way depend on one flawed premise: they think that humans will all move in one way without taking into account individuality (indeed, individuality of any sort is usually the basis of any uto/dystoption story) so it's best to look at what really occurs rather than what certain people might think will go on. I know that most people in this particular community don't have hands-on experience with raising children, and I really hope that certain folk become either less rigid or more instructive when their turn comes because so many people seem to be saying that they'll either give 100% freedom to their kids or 0% and neither of those are the right way to do it.
This debate has moved farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr away from its original premise (which was already flawed as I'm pretty sure no-one with an education believes preferences to be wholly conscious) lmao :P but oh well interesting stuff going on
I think the world isn't as simple a place to simple say yes or no.
You could break down this argument into separate areas. Straight or gay individuals who hold strong moral convictions to halt their urges which takes a strong mind, to those damaging themselves by choosing to have sex with the opposite or same sex when their body or "heart" isn't convinced they like it, and those who are so easy going and open that they can choose to be either. Choose is a dodgy word to use as you do not necessarily choose who you are if you are bisexual as it tends to go with the moment, and some have that choice chosen for them because they think it reprehensible and dirty that they make such a choice when really they're scared of their own self-judgement.
If we were so convinced labels are important, which I personally don't care about, then we simply wouldn't have any diversity or variation in the obvious large number of different people we see in the world. If people choose to be straight or gay, then bisexuals must be a strange concept to some, yet they exist and quite happily. You also get certain religious or social groups which simply say no to sex - that can be a choice or a moral, religious "external" choice.
I just find labels damaging. I don't care if you sex up men or women and I find activism for either to be stupid IF it becomes aggressive when as far as I see it I judge you on individuality rather than assign you to a category and tar you with the same brush as others. Provided you aren't an arse I don't care what tickles your fancy.
I don't think it's necessarily a choice, but I also don't believe that it's entirely biological. It could be down to influential factors of someone's life, but it could be entirely preferable depending on the person. When it comes to being straight, I grew up with it being the norm. No, this is not homophobic, and yes, it was naive, but I never had any understanding or concept of what being 'gay' meant until late primary school/early high school. Of course you'd get the typical teasing of 'Paul likes boys' or 'Erin likes girls' but I never paid any attention because I found it insensitive or immature to criticize what anyone chooses to do with their life, under any circumstance whether it be 'choosing' to be gay, or transgender or any of those socially scrutinized areas.
So whether someone chooses to be gay or not, that's cool. You can tell when people try to contort their body image to be the norm and when they're genuine and stellar about who they are and why. I do not think, however, that people can have the freedom to pick and choose. I think something like this is set in stone and it may take some fluctuating to find that solidarity and understanding of yourself - perhaps evidencing biological factors.
All in all, I think it takes a little bit of everything. Biological, influential, choice.
Nothing is straight forward in this concept. It's not a choice, it's not an obligation based on traumas, but there may well be other deciding factors. On a personal level, I can not pinpoint any traumatic experience. I dated males until Lauren came along, and that was a completely new spectrum for me. Granted I chose to be with her, but when you're attracted and all you want is to be with someone, that pull is certainly not a choice.
I came from a strict household, if I stepped out of line, I too would have been punished, but it was far from loveless. My father tries his hardest to comprehend my current situation, but he struggles. It's the fact that he's trying so hard that gets me though. Why is the stigmatisation of being gay such a powerful one?
You don't control who you love, you simply control the actions you take in regards to it.
The only stereotype I can think of that could have influenced my orientation, which lets be honest, I don't even know; pansexual maybe; is that I played a lot of sports when I was younger, like hockey and rugby, but it was a good 5 years of not playing before I fell in love with Lauren.
Dan, your parenting will only get you so far, honestly, you may have to adapt it along the way; if your child's individuality shines stronger than your regimental parenting, and they turn out to be gay, or heaven forbid transsexual, how would you react out of interest?
No, you don't choose your sexual orientation. I don't know why it matters though either way. Just let people do what they want to do as long as they aren't hurting anyone.
Okay, firstly, before I answer I want to say this debate is actually quite inappropriate.
secondly, depends on how you mean, anybody can say they are gay/lesbian but if you mean actually being sexually attracted to another sex then that's not a choice just how your body has programmed.
In what ways?Quote:
Originally Posted by Earthquake
Also, I'm sure I replied to this a long time ago but my answer has probably changed over the past few weeks/months:
I think you can't choose your sexual orientation but you can choose to start identifying as a certain sexuality. So a gay man hasn't chosen to be gay but he may be choosing to ignore it and carry on identifying as heterosexual.
I don't think it's a choice but I also don't think it's something you're born with. I think it's just something that as you age you realise interest you and that's how you want to live. Some people grow up to adore board games, it's not a genetic trait and they didn't choice to enjoy particularly. I have no actual proof or research or anything of the sort but that's the answer I can come up with. If someone can prove me wrong then I would happily agree with the facts.
Even if it's a choice or a birth trait, it shouldn't be something that matters.
My views operate in both ways.
This was previously mentioned, but I think that as a result of me never having a true role model as a man, I get along with women much easier than men. As well, I also believe that it's in our genes. I don't think that we necessarily have much of a mental choice.
But again, my main influence is the way that I cooperate with both genders.
If you get along easier with women is it not much simpler to enter relationships with them rather than men?Quote:
Originally Posted by !Landon
I have problems interacting in a positive way with men. So, in a sense, I am sure it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle
In which case what bearing does this have on your sexuality?Quote:
Originally Posted by !Landon
It gives me the willingness to have confidence around women.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle
And again, this is not the only set reason that I feel I am straight. I've grown up with it and have never become attracted to men.
OH I thought you were gay pmsl that makes a LOT more sense! Interesting that normally it's boys with single mothers who turn out gay.Quote:
Originally Posted by !Landon
How did you think I was gay? Lol. The fact that I didn't mention my father? ahaQuote:
Originally Posted by Kyle
i think it's all about experimenting with either thoughts or actions in early life to see where you're at your happinest - for example during year 7 people thought I was gay ( I was and still do have feminine qualities ) and it even made me question my orientation, so it can also be environmental factors that can sway decisions and feelings.
aaaaaaand then I got a girlfriend and realised i'm very straight ;)