Monarchy or Republic

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Basically that is democracy, is the next step in a European superstate to have a equal ratio of EU-supporting newspapers and Non EU-supporting newspapers, but then again that wouldn't suprise me in the slightest. If more people wish to buy right-wing leaning newspapers that is because they are right-wing and do not prefer the EU over the United States our our own British sovereignty, there is no two way about it, if people do not buy pro-EU newspapers as much as anti-EU newspapers then people do not want the EU. If we can't have a vote due to the media, then the same should go for elections, in your point of view. I come back to the same point again, it is because it knows it will lose.

---

I'd just like to point out that newspapers are a dying format, what with the internet and TV becoming just about free and more easy to pick up.

What I would like to say is your rant on the media is totally true. More people in our country cannot be bothered to research what each party or any political power can give them, instead, they'll listen to Jamie Oliver who's in support of Labour because they are encouraging school's healthy meals programs.

That being said, it should be more easier for the public to know what each party to offer and not just get general bias and maybe words that most people won't care to look up, just thrown all over the place. If a newspaper is gonna do a cover on a Labour support, they shouldn't just about say "VOTE LABOUR YOU THICKHEAD", they should outline what the party offers to you and who is in charge.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Then you have to look at the vital economic reform she drove through, tough and harsh it was but it bloody worked. Assets like the mines and so forth were never assets, maybe many years ago under the Empire but not in a world where Asian countries can produce the same/more for less and can afford to sell for less. It was not right that people were paying higher and higher taxes just to keep these failing industries open, basic economics.

---

As I said, we won't agree on this, because I value employment, even if it means having high taxes and government spending.

Quote:

---

The EU is already above nations, once a power can order you to stop/do something, your sovereignty is lost. I'm afraid I don't see much of a difference between the EU and the USSR in basic terms, they do not represent the people and the people do not want them.

I'm sorry but claiming the public cannot make the correct choice is a failure of democracy, you may aswell call it dead on the doorstep if you feel that. On the case of MP's reading the treaty, did you know the Minister for Europe had not read the Lisbon Treaty? - If the Minister for Europe has not read the treaty then i'm afraid the argument is lost. To claim we do not understand it is absolute tripe, do every voter in a General Election read the manifesto of the party they vote for? - I think not. In that case you may aswell declare a dictatorship.

---

No, the EU is not above nations, as they currently have the right to cede. Once the EU opens bureaus, runs police organisations, has its own army (which is unfortunately in the making, the latter) and owns land in other states, we will start to see it become a force. I agree that it's pathetic that Labour's Europe Minister didn't bother to read the treaty and they were attacked for that - it is their job to do this.

Quote:

---

Also the treaty can say whatever it likes, because it knows full well that that clause will probably never be used and we don't get a say on it anyway, so what would it matter if it gives us permission to leave?. We the public of Europe want a say and the EU will not give us it because it believes it is always right and knows best.

---

Like I said, the EU is a inter-national organisation. When you say 'they' you mean 'us.' The governement sends commisioners to the European Commision. The government is elected by the people. It's like the house of lords, this isn't democratic, because the political parties appoint people to stand in there.

Quote:

---

Basically that is democracy, is the next step in a European superstate to have a equal ratio of EU-supporting newspapers and Non EU-supporting newspapers, but then again that wouldn't suprise me in the slightest. If more people wish to buy right-wing leaning newspapers that is because they are right-wing and do not prefer the EU over the United States our our own British sovereignty, there is no two way about it, if people do not buy pro-EU newspapers as much as anti-EU newspapers then people do not want the EU. If we can't have a vote due to the media, then the same should go for elections, in your point of view. I come back to the same point again, it is because it knows it will lose.

---

When newspapers start printing untrue, twisted words, an electorate cannot see what is true and what isn't and won't have a clear view on who they are voting for. It is true, it probably would lose in an referendum. And I'm personally against the treaty and it starts to undermind smaller states (like Ireland).

Quote:

---

I'm afraid the argument of a pawn of the superpowers is rubbish, no nation can ever take our sovereignty; thanks to our trident defence system which thankfully makes us safe. The only pressing issue in the United Kingdom is energy reliance in the future, and that can easily be solved with a new nuclear power generation of power plants and not having to buy energy from europe which is making them richer and us poorer.

---

No nation could invade us, that's true. It doesn't mean they couldn't put pressure on us economically to do what they want. The years of conquest are over. Countries like the USA are now building economic empires.

Quote:

---

You talk as if the EU is our saviour, you yourself imply its ultimate goal is to become a nation, something the EU denies in public and you denied earlier on. Margaret Thatcher warned on the growing power in the EU and she was right, its ultimate goal is to become a superpower which looks like it is going to be formed without our consent.

---

A superpower doesn't mean a nation. All US States have the right to cede from the USA, although I think everyone would agree we wouldn't want as centralised europe. It's called a union, a collective movement. If you think that in 30 years time, that in a world dominated by the USA, EU, China, India, Brazil, Japan, Russia that they would give a toss about what we say, you are mistaken. We will be so small in comparison that they would do anything which is against our interests. This whole romaticised view of the UK is old. Most other european states have taken off their tinted nationalistic glasses and started to look and see what the world what it really is.

Stop looking at the past at what we once were and start looking forward. Whether that be with the EU/EEA or go it alone, we've got to make up our mind. We're not as big as a nation as some 'middle englanders' think we are.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alexxxxx

As I said, we won't agree on this, because I value employment, even if it means having high taxes and government spending.


No, the EU is not above nations, as they currently have the right to cede. Once the EU opens bureaus, runs police organisations, has its own army (which is unfortunately in the making, the latter) and owns land in other states, we will start to see it become a force. I agree that it's pathetic that Labour's Europe Minister didn't bother to read the treaty and they were attacked for that - it is their job to do this.


Like I said, the EU is a inter-national organisation. When you say 'they' you mean 'us.' The governement sends commisioners to the European Commision. The government is elected by the people. It's like the house of lords, this isn't democratic, because the political parties appoint people to stand in there.


When newspapers start printing untrue, twisted words, an electorate cannot see what is true and what isn't and won't have a clear view on who they are voting for. It is true, it probably would lose in an referendum. And I'm personally against the treaty and it starts to undermind smaller states (like Ireland).

No nation could invade us, that's true. It doesn't mean they couldn't put pressure on us economically to do what they want. The years of conquest are over. Countries like the USA are now building economic empires.


A superpower doesn't mean a nation. All US States have the right to cede from the USA, although I think everyone would agree we wouldn't want as centralised europe. It's called a union, a collective movement. If you think that in 30 years time, that in a world dominated by the USA, EU, China, India, Brazil, Japan, Russia that they would give a toss about what we say, you are mistaken. We will be so small in comparison that they would do anything which is against our interests. This whole romaticised view of the UK is old. Most other european states have taken off their tinted nationalistic glasses and started to look and see what the world what it really is.

Stop looking at the past at what we once were and start looking forward. Whether that be with the EU/EEA or go it alone, we've got to make up our mind. We're not as big as a nation as some 'middle englanders' think we are.

---

The high taxes and government spending create false jobs which cannot compete in a world economy, by cutting the 'dead' jobs you create more money to be invested back in to service, or to cutting taxes for business which in turn generates business to come to the United Kingdom.

The EU is above nations already, you only have to look at the way it can fine our country if it wishes, it can also set limits on parts of our economy. That is not democracy, that is a dictatorship and as you said its going to get worse, a EU army, EU embassies - it is total leftie madness!

The Parliament is a cover, the commion and the top of the EU sets the agenda and whether or not it has British in it, the people put in the EU on our behalf are just left-wing losers such as Neil Kinnock and Peter Mandelson. The parliament needs our opinion in this modern and so called democratic world, and we should be at least asked whether we want it to even exist which the majority don't. The house of lords isn't indeed democratic and perhaps that should be reformed, however the whole point of the house of lords is so that respected people who have done things for this country can block and unpopular/laws against the interests of this country. I'm afraid people in the EU create the agenda whereas the Lords judge the agenda.

The media can create the agenda, but the fact still remains that people like me will hold views to a more right-wing side that we will buy papers like the Daily Mail and i'm afraid reading more papers such as the Guardian will not change our minds one bit.

We are keeping up with this, by shedding off heavy industry which was unable to compete with Asia we have had a boom which was in times better than our european neighbours. We will always have allies such as the United States, if the PROC ever did stop trading with us as a threat it would damage them more as they are the ones who produce more, another point is that our other allies would also apply diplomatic pressue to the PROC to stop them trying to trade with us, many treaties etc all assure our trading fairness between nations.

The United States is totally different, it is a nation which was born together and speaks one language, it was a nation which wanted to be together for the most part. The case if different in europe where we are being denied a vote on whether we want it and secondly we are totally different countries, the EU and other foreign leaders have a hatred of some of Britains politicians and it should not be allowed.

Here is a quote from a French minister when our voted-in PM's government was near collapse, thanks to the EU issue;

After the Rome Council a French official was asked whether it had failed. He answered: "On the contrary, the Council had been an outstanding success, since it had re-established an eleven-to-one situation in the Community and destabilised Thatcher at home".

That is absolutly pathetic and shows their true agenda, they like politicians like Tony Blair and Gordon Brown because not only having socialist histories themselves, they will do almost anything the EU commands, whereas Thatcher wouldn't. The EU do not like being told NO. The fact a superpower isn't a nation well the EU is well on its way, when the Lisbon Treaty is rammed through it will give the EU its own political identity, we only had to see their true agenda with the old treaty, a anthem, emblem, theme and motto? - i'm sorry but if that isn't a sign of a federal state like the USSR then I don't know what is.

The illusion is often created that our United Kingdom is going to sink in a 'new world' but the fact remains it won't. We are for the most part independant and still a formidable force. A nuclear deterrent, a strong economy for our size and a permanent seat on the UN Security Council assure our power. Granted we are still not independant enough especially the fact that we have to buy our energy from France and buy the materials needed from places such as the Russian Federation, but that can be solved with the introduction of nuclear power on a large scale. We are a great power, but not a superpower.

We are looking forward and the future of this country is generally agreed by the largely conservative-leaning public. We want to be the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, a independant state. We do not want to be the European Union.

If it is dissolved what would happen to things like the Queens bench division. A whole stage of the court division will be missing and important decisions normally made by the QBD would be left to the president which I wouldnt like to see.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

The high taxes and government spending create false jobs which cannot compete in a world economy, by cutting the 'dead' jobs you create more money to be invested back in to service, or to cutting taxes for business which in turn generates business to come to the United Kingdom.

The EU is above nations already, you only have to look at the way it can fine our country if it wishes, it can also set limits on parts of our economy. That is not democracy, that is a dictatorship and as you said its going to get worse, a EU army, EU embassies - it is total leftie madness!

---

You sounded like you had a good argument there, until you said 'leftie-madness.' It's not above nations because every nation has the right to cede. Once that right is lost, a nation loses it's soveriegnty. It's called 'pooling sovereignty' not 'giving it away.'

And to your economics theory, it's true, it could provide 'dead jobs' and it could produce an inefficient government, but like benefits, at the end of the day, these wages are getting spent somewhere. Increasing benefits can be argued that it increases aggregate demand. Also, it's better to have people in work setting good examples to everyone than people out of work.

Quote:

---

The Parliament is a cover, the commion and the top of the EU sets the agenda and whether or not it has British in it, the people put in the EU on our behalf are just left-wing losers such as Neil Kinnock and Peter Mandelson. The parliament needs our opinion in this modern and so called democratic world, and we should be at least asked whether we want it to even exist which the majority don't. The house of lords isn't indeed democratic and perhaps that should be reformed, however the whole point of the house of lords is so that respected people who have done things for this country can block and unpopular/laws against the interests of this country. I'm afraid people in the EU create the agenda whereas the Lords judge the agenda.

---

Again, left-wing losers, another right-winger who isn't prepared to look through other people's eyes. Soon you will be calling them NuLierbore, liek the rest of some of the right-wing ******s. Yes, the commision is the most important part of the EU and I think this needs reforming, but at the end of the day, it is democratically elected in as governments simply send representatives. Some people can't see through the nationalistic glasses they wear and cannot see the problems created by an isolated united kingdom.

Quote:

---

The media can create the agenda, but the fact still remains that people like me will hold views to a more right-wing side that we will buy papers like the Daily Mail and i'm afraid reading more papers such as the Guardian will not change our minds one bit.

---

Please don't tell me you read the Daily Mail. It's a rag. Even Cameron reads the Guardian. Daily Mail is a libelous newspaper that publishes mostly opinion and not factual news. The Guardian on the other hand, I feel is more balanced factually, but has quite left-wing commentors. It divides it up more. At least read the telegraph or times if you are right-wing.

Quote:

---

We are keeping up with this, by shedding off heavy industry which was unable to compete with Asia we have had a boom which was in times better than our european neighbours. We will always have allies such as the United States, if the PROC ever did stop trading with us as a threat it would damage them more as they are the ones who produce more, another point is that our other allies would also apply diplomatic pressue to the PROC to stop them trying to trade with us, many treaties etc all assure our trading fairness between nations.

---

Where are the allies? Oh wait, they're in Europe and the USA. Treaties? Oh these free trade treaties are part of the EU/EEA. There's no guarantee that we would get free trade with other nations if we aren't part of a trading bloc. They'd easily put up taxes on imported goods, lowering demand of our goods even more, destroying our economy. You seem to think that other nations don't want to protect themselves. Why do you think the EU put up limits for imported chinese clothes, it's because they are trying to protect their own businesses. What makes you think they'd be any different to us, with our exports like food/fish/fianances/cars/arms/trains/planes.

Quote:

---

The United States is totally different, it is a nation which was born together and speaks one language, it was a nation which wanted to be together for the most part. The case if different in europe where we are being denied a vote on whether we want it and secondly we are totally different countries, the EU and other foreign leaders have a hatred of some of Britains politicians and it should not be allowed.

---

Uh-uh, when the United States was first being formed, there was and is still no official language. It's a union of ex-british and other countries' foreign territories. Lousianna for example, spoke mostly French before it was annexed. The same for other south westerly US states. Of course some people don't agree with each other, I think some 'hatred,' as you call it, comes from some arrogance that some brits have.

Quote:

---

After the Rome Council a French official was asked whether it had failed. He answered: "On the contrary, the Council had been an outstanding success, since it had re-established an eleven-to-one situation in the Community and destabilised Thatcher at home".

That is absolutly pathetic and shows their true agenda, they like politicians like Tony Blair and Gordon Brown because not only having socialist histories themselves, they will do almost anything the EU commands, whereas Thatcher wouldn't. The EU do not like being told NO. The fact a superpower isn't a nation well the EU is well on its way, when the Lisbon Treaty is rammed through it will give the EU its own political identity, we only had to see their true agenda with the old treaty, a anthem, emblem, theme and motto? - i'm sorry but if that isn't a sign of a federal state like the USSR then I don't know what is.

---

Labour is a socialist group and is part of an international socialist group. If you know so much why are you 'accusing' them of being socialist. Much of the EU is left-wing, so is this country in comparison with the USA, so I'm not suprised they disliked our right-wing government. You are again treating the EU as something above states. Why do you think the EU Constitution failed to pass? It was because all nations (including the Netherlands and France, two nations who are in the very heart of european politics) didn't agree that the constitution was right for them. The Lisbon treaty won't pass in every nation, i assure you. It will fail again in Ireland. It hasn't been ratified here yet either. The EU is already a political identity. Do you not see the EU flags that are shown in some places, where European Money was used to build/fund social things.

Don't you think that it is a bit odd how it took Europe to tell our government to stop taking DNA and storing it of youngsters. Don't you think it's ironic that European Commision are investigating BT of there privacy breaches with 'Phorm.'

Quote:

---

The illusion is often created that our United Kingdom is going to sink in a 'new world' but the fact remains it won't. We are for the most part independant and still a formidable force. A nuclear deterrent, a strong economy for our size and a permanent seat on the UN Security Council assure our power. Granted we are still not independant enough especially the fact that we have to buy our energy from France and buy the materials needed from places such as the Russian Federation, but that can be solved with the introduction of nuclear power on a large scale. We are a great power, but not a superpower.

---

Mate, noone gives a toss about invading each other anymore. Nuclear Detrrents are needed in some cases against rogue states. It's not our job to police the world. We'd have a much better health system, education system and the like if we didn't have to pay for all this. The nordic states are often seen as some of the greatest places in the world for people to live, even with a particularly small army and regular sized economy. Good Economy =/= Good, Happy people. At the moment we stand in a good position with the 6th or 7th largest economy, with good influence, but even now, the whole of the EU are sanctioning Iran collectively, which is more effective than alone. These new nuclear power stations will be built by EDF I think. Who will provide us with expensive power, so the French can subsidise their own. This is the problem with privatising, everything becomes more expensive, because all everyone cares about is making money and not providing people with a decent service at manageable rates.

Quote:

---

We are looking forward and the future of this country is generally agreed by the largely conservative-leaning public. We want to be the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, a independant state. We do not want to be the European Union.

---

Well, you'll find that I don't think we'll be leaving anytime soon, especially in an economic crisis like this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alexxxxx

You sounded like you had a good argument there, until you said 'leftie-madness.' It's not above nations because every nation has the right to cede. Once that right is lost, a nation loses it's soveriegnty. It's called 'pooling sovereignty' not 'giving it away.'

And to your economics theory, it's true, it could provide 'dead jobs' and it could produce an inefficient government, but like benefits, at the end of the day, these wages are getting spent somewhere. Increasing benefits can be argued that it increases aggregate demand. Also, it's better to have people in work setting good examples to everyone than people out of work.


Again, left-wing losers, another right-winger who isn't prepared to look through other people's eyes. Soon you will be calling them NuLierbore, liek the rest of some of the right-wing ******s. Yes, the commision is the most important part of the EU and I think this needs reforming, but at the end of the day, it is democratically elected in as governments simply send representatives. Some people can't see through the nationalistic glasses they wear and cannot see the problems created by an isolated united kingdom.


Please don't tell me you read the Daily Mail. It's a rag. Even Cameron reads the Guardian. Daily Mail is a libelous newspaper that publishes mostly opinion and not factual news. The Guardian on the other hand, I feel is more balanced factually, but has quite left-wing commentors. It divides it up more. At least read the telegraph or times if you are right-wing.


Where are the allies? Oh wait, they're in Europe and the USA. Treaties? Oh these free trade treaties are part of the EU/EEA. There's no guarantee that we would get free trade with other nations if we aren't part of a trading bloc. They'd easily put up taxes on imported goods, lowering demand of our goods even more, destroying our economy. You seem to think that other nations don't want to protect themselves. Why do you think the EU put up limits for imported chinese clothes, it's because they are trying to protect their own businesses. What makes you think they'd be any different to us, with our exports like food/fish/fianances/cars/arms/trains/planes.


Uh-uh, when the United States was first being formed, there was and is still no official language. It's a union of ex-british and other countries' foreign territories. Lousianna for example, spoke mostly French before it was annexed. The same for other south westerly US states. Of course some people don't agree with each other, I think some 'hatred,' as you call it, comes from some arrogance that some brits have.

Labour is a socialist group and is part of an international socialist group. If you know so much why are you 'accusing' them of being socialist. Much of the EU is left-wing, so is this country in comparison with the USA, so I'm not suprised they disliked our right-wing government. You are again treating the EU as something above states. Why do you think the EU Constitution failed to pass? It was because all nations (including the Netherlands and France, two nations who are in the very heart of european politics) didn't agree that the constitution was right for them. The Lisbon treaty won't pass in every nation, i assure you. It will fail again in Ireland. It hasn't been ratified here yet either. The EU is already a political identity. Do you not see the EU flags that are shown in some places, where European Money was used to build/fund social things.

Don't you think that it is a bit odd how it took Europe to tell our government to stop taking DNA and storing it of youngsters. Don't you think it's ironic that European Commision are investigating BT of there privacy breaches with 'Phorm.'

Mate, noone gives a toss about invading each other anymore. Nuclear Detrrents are needed in some cases against rogue states. It's not our job to police the world. We'd have a much better health system, education system and the like if we didn't have to pay for all this. The nordic states are often seen as some of the greatest places in the world for people to live, even with a particularly small army and regular sized economy. Good Economy =/= Good, Happy people. At the moment we stand in a good position with the 6th or 7th largest economy, with good influence, but even now, the whole of the EU are sanctioning Iran collectively, which is more effective than alone. These new nuclear power stations will be built by EDF I think. Who will provide us with expensive power, so the French can subsidise their own. This is the problem with privatising, everything becomes more expensive, because all everyone cares about is making money and not providing people with a decent service at manageable rates.


Well, you'll find that I don't think we'll be leaving anytime soon, especially in an economic crisis like this.

---

The EU knows nations will not cede from the Union because those in power are constantly in its grip, exactly why it did not approve of the Thatcher government. We do not want to dissolve or 'pool' our sovereignty, that is exaxtly why a referendum must be held.

At the same time though you are losing money and that is why it is not sustainable and doesn't work. I am proud of our industrial past, very proud; but at the same time I believe what she did was right and has reformed this country.

It may be democratically elected by our government, many of whom will recieve nice jobs in the EU when they retire from UK politics. The EU is supposed to be for the people of europe, well how about before it starts muttering how its democratically elected, it actually lets us elect whether or not we want it. If the Republic of Ireland had voted yes, do we think they'd be put to another vote? - no, we know they wouldn't.

Their are no problems caused by a 'isolated' United Kingdom, the EU started as a trading group and has now become a political union which is unacceptable. Thatcher warned of it in the last days of her premiership and she was laughed at by the Labour/Liberal Democrat side and how right she was. It is unbelievable that our MP's get elected to sign away their powers to a faceless and biased organisation which doesn't even like us that much.

Regardless of what I read, I will read the Daily Mail because I agree with the majority of its views, that is why certain papers are more popular than others. The Guardian on the other hand, well all I can say is I don't want to be reading about how I have 10 years left to live due to the global warming theory. Mr Cameron can read whatever he likes, i'm not as much of a fan of him as I was of William Hague, Iain Duncan Smith or Michael Howard, although I think he would make a better Prime Minister than the idiot we have now.

You make it seem like everyone is out there to get us, it is total nonsense. The commonwealth is friendly with us and I think we should focus on it a lot more, countries such as France which are in NATO would nevr stop buying from us otherwise they would suffer economic sanctions from other NATO allies such as the United States. There is no threat, the EU say this because they want a centralised command economy like the Soviet Union, which didn't work.

Yes, as I said for the most part and not the whole part the United States wanted to be one country. We however do not want to be part of the European Union and why can't you and other supporters of it accept this?

The EU is not an offical political identity at the moment from what I have read, it is a series of treaties. Once this treaty is passed (and they will manage to ram it through) it will become a 'state' of its own. The French and Netherlands haven't been given a referendum this time and I wonder why? - oh yes!, because they know it will fail yet again. The Irish only held the referendum because they legally have to. The EU may 'fund' these things, but it is funding it with the money we gave it. What is the point in handing the EU, lets say 10 billion, the EU spends 3 billion here, and then spends the rest in other places; i'm sorry but that isn't being 'nice', thats daylight robbery.

We pay more to the EU than we recieve from them, so how do you work out that health care would be more efficent, that in economic terms does not make sense. As for the privatising point, no it doesn't, because we'd just be paying higher taxes for these services otherwise, the only difference is that at least when not run by central government they can make a profit and that people who do not use them services don't have to suffer higher taxes. It is called being independant. The NHS is another example of why everything had to be privatised, the NHS is a monolithic time bomb which is constantly bombarded with regulations and targets from central government. This is where the difference in socialist and capitalist economics comes in, compare the economy of the west to the east in the Cold War.

The EU sanctioning Iran?, that is the whole point of the United Nations which is a non-biased organisation. This is yet another example of the EU being too big for its own shoes. People care about making money because with a profit it means lower taxes, people spend more money across a wide spectrum and it creates more jobs. It is simple economics and is only proven with the demise of the Soviet economy and the incredible money making machine that is the United States and the western world. As Margaret Thatcher once said to a socialist "would you rather the poor be poorer?".

The EU cannot and has not helped us one bit in this economic crisis, and it will and cannot solve this. Infact, its been more of a hinderence than a help. The money wasted on the EU could of done so much in this country, after all it is our money. I think you'll notice it is not the EU but the United States and organisations like the G20 which have any hope of solving this crisis. The EU, like always, is attempting to be everybodys friend so national governments can report back to their public and say "hey look, the EU is solving the recession." - if only they could say the EU has asked for every country to have a vote on whether they even want to be part of it.

We will leave one day, when people start seeing what a biased and waste of money it is (most already do), and then hopefully a government with some balls will come in and take us out.

Whether you support the EU or not, you need to understand people do not want it and you cannot use the excuse such as biased newspapers, in that case we wouldn't have general elections at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

The EU knows nations will not cede from the Union because those in power are constantly in its grip, exactly why it did not approve of the Thatcher government. We do not want to dissolve or 'pool' our sovereignty, that is exaxtly why a referendum must be held.

---

Constantly in grip = too many good reasons to be a member.

Quote:

---

At the same time though you are losing money and that is why it is not sustainable and doesn't work. I am proud of our industrial past, very proud; but at the same time I believe what she did was right and has reformed this country.

---

I disagree.

Quote:

---

It may be democratically elected by our government, many of whom will recieve nice jobs in the EU when they retire from UK politics. The EU is supposed to be for the people of europe, well how about before it starts muttering how its democratically elected, it actually lets us elect whether or not we want it. If the Republic of Ireland had voted yes, do we think they'd be put to another vote? - no, we know they wouldn't.

---

If everyone doesn't want to be in it and feel SO strongly about it, they'd vote for UKIP or *shudder* BNP.

Quote:

---

Their are no problems caused by a 'isolated' United Kingdom, the EU started as a trading group and has now become a political union which is unacceptable. Thatcher warned of it in the last days of her premiership and she was laughed at by the Labour/Liberal Democrat side and how right she was. It is unbelievable that our MP's get elected to sign away their powers to a faceless and biased organisation which doesn't even like us that much.

---

There is a problem with an isolated UK. Trade, trade, trade, trade, trade and more trade like i've told you before. It's not all about people not wanting to trade with us, it's the fact that if countries or unions turn protectionist (which the EU are with the CAP, and the USA), our goods will turn so expensive! If the european economy grows faster than ours, the euro and dollar could be in higher demand than our pound, devalueing it (which is good for exports, but pretty poor for imports).

Quote:

---

Regardless of what I read, I will read the Daily Mail because I agree with the majority of its views, that is why certain papers are more popular than others. The Guardian on the other hand, well all I can say is I don't want to be reading about how I have 10 years left to live due to the global warming theory. Mr Cameron can read whatever he likes, i'm not as much of a fan of him as I was of William Hague, Iain Duncan Smith or Michael Howard, although I think he would make a better Prime Minister than the idiot we have now.

---

Great. You shouldn't read 'because it agrees with my views' you should read it 'because it informs me of what is happening in my own country and around the world so I can begin to understand the problems my nation faces and who could be best to lead us.'

Quote:

---

You make it seem like everyone is out there to get us, it is total nonsense. The commonwealth is friendly with us and I think we should focus on it a lot more, countries such as France which are in NATO would nevr stop buying from us otherwise they would suffer economic sanctions from other NATO allies such as the United States. There is no threat, the EU say this because they want a centralised command economy like the Soviet Union, which didn't work.

---

Noone is 'out to get us.' I think you thought the opposite with the french minister in your other post. I'm saying everyone is looking out for themselves. The french were under alot of pressure because they were applying proctionist measures in their car industry and Japan and the EU put alot of pressure on the USA for a 'buy american' clause in a recent economy bail-out bill. Protectionism is the worst thing for our economy right now.

Quote:

---

Yes, as I said for the most part and not the whole part the United States wanted to be one country. We however do not want to be part of the European Union and why can't you and other supporters of it accept this?

---

For the most part, yes, most people do want to be part of the United States, I was just pointing out you were wrong how they built from a common language. How I see it is that if we leave the EU for the EEA (like Iceland or Denmark), we lose a large part of our voice in europe. I personally believe that we'd be willing to be more of a part of the EU if the tories didn't screw us up by overvalueing our currency on the ERM and then boosting our interest rates 5% in 3 hours to attempt to keep us on it.

Quote:

---

The EU is not an offical political identity at the moment from what I have read, it is a series of treaties. Once this treaty is passed (and they will manage to ram it through) it will become a 'state' of its own. The French and Netherlands haven't been given a referendum this time and I wonder why? - oh yes!, because they know it will fail yet again. The Irish only held the referendum because they legally have to. The EU may 'fund' these things, but it is funding it with the money we gave it. What is the point in handing the EU, lets say 10 billion, the EU spends 3 billion here, and then spends the rest in other places; i'm sorry but that isn't being 'nice', thats daylight robbery.

We pay more to the EU than we recieve from them, so how do you work out that health care would be more efficent, that in economic terms does not make sense. As for the privatising point, no it doesn't, because we'd just be paying higher taxes for these services otherwise, the only difference is that at least when not run by central government they can make a profit and that people who do not use them services don't have to suffer higher taxes. It is called being independant. The NHS is another example of why everything had to be privatised, the NHS is a monolithic time bomb which is constantly bombarded with regulations and targets from central government. This is where the difference in socialist and capitalist economics comes in, compare the economy of the west to the east in the Cold War.

---

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_rebate (we get the majority of what we don't recieve back) - I also believe that if you privatise the NHS, the tories would lose SO MUCH SUPPORT it's untrue. Would you like to live in the USA where they let people DIE because they don't have the money to pay for insurance. It's sickening.

Quote:

---

The EU sanctioning Iran?, that is the whole point of the United Nations which is a non-biased organisation. This is yet another example of the EU being too big for its own shoes. People care about making money because with a profit it means lower taxes, people spend more money across a wide spectrum and it creates more jobs. It is simple economics and is only proven with the demise of the Soviet economy and the incredible money making machine that is the United States and the western world. As Margaret Thatcher once said to a socialist "would you rather the poor be poorer?".

---

The UN won't do anything. They sit there and make some decisions but at the end of the day the permanant members on the security council have to all agree, something that russia doesn't always like doing. Socialism doesn't have to be Communism or far left at all. France has a very good economy, a more productive economy and is more left wing than us. There unions pressure for so much in France, they fight for what they need, they strike, which is more than can be said in this country. Better standard of living, better economy and slightly more left-wing as a whole.

Quote:

---

The EU cannot and has not helped us one bit in this economic crisis, and it will and cannot solve this. Infact, its been more of a hinderence than a help. The money wasted on the EU could of done so much in this country, after all it is our money. I think you'll notice it is not the EU but the United States and organisations like the G20 which have any hope of solving this crisis. The EU, like always, is attempting to be everybodys friend so national governments can report back to their public and say "hey look, the EU is solving the recession." - if only they could say the EU has asked for every country to have a vote on whether they even want to be part of it.

---

EU Rebate... again. The G20 is a joke because they are at the end of the day attempting to look out for themselves. If the free market wasn't available, I expect our largest trading partners would have jumped at 'trying to look after their own.'

Quote:

---

We will leave one day, when people start seeing what a biased and waste of money it is (most already do), and then hopefully a government with some balls will come in and take us out.

Whether you support the EU or not, you need to understand people do not want it and you cannot use the excuse such as biased newspapers, in that case we wouldn't have general elections at all.

---

The tories won't leave the EU. My excuse isn't biased newspapers but a distorted view on the treaty itself. I understand the EU is unpopular.

This is my last post because frankly I'm never going to change your tory-tory opinion on the world and you're never going to change me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alexxxxx

Constantly in grip = too many good reasons to be a member.


I disagree.


If everyone doesn't want to be in it and feel SO strongly about it, they'd vote for UKIP or *shudder* BNP.


There is a problem with an isolated UK. Trade, trade, trade, trade, trade and more trade like i've told you before. It's not all about people not wanting to trade with us, it's the fact that if countries or unions turn protectionist (which the EU are with the CAP, and the USA), our goods will turn so expensive! If the european economy grows faster than ours, the euro and dollar could be in higher demand than our pound, devalueing it (which is good for exports, but pretty poor for imports).

Great. You shouldn't read 'because it agrees with my views' you should read it 'because it informs me of what is happening in my own country and around the world so I can begin to understand the problems my nation faces and who could be best to lead us.'


Noone is 'out to get us.' I think you thought the opposite with the french minister in your other post. I'm saying everyone is looking out for themselves. The french were under alot of pressure because they were applying proctionist measures in their car industry and Japan and the EU put alot of pressure on the USA for a 'buy american' clause in a recent economy bail-out bill. Protectionism is the worst thing for our economy right now.


For the most part, yes, most people do want to be part of the United States, I was just pointing out you were wrong how they built from a common language. How I see it is that if we leave the EU for the EEA (like Iceland or Denmark), we lose a large part of our voice in europe. I personally believe that we'd be willing to be more of a part of the EU if the tories didn't screw us up by overvalueing our currency on the ERM and then boosting our interest rates 5% in 3 hours to attempt to keep us on it.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_rebate (we get the majority of what we don't recieve back) - I also believe that if you privatise the NHS, the tories would lose SO MUCH SUPPORT it's untrue. Would you like to live in the USA where they let people DIE because they don't have the money to pay for insurance. It's sickening.


The UN won't do anything. They sit there and make some decisions but at the end of the day the permanant members on the security council have to all agree, something that russia doesn't always like doing. Socialism doesn't have to be Communism or far left at all. France has a very good economy, a more productive economy and is more left wing than us. There unions pressure for so much in France, they fight for what they need, they strike, which is more than can be said in this country. Better standard of living, better economy and slightly more left-wing as a whole.

EU Rebate... again. The G20 is a joke because they are at the end of the day attempting to look out for themselves. If the free market wasn't available, I expect our largest trading partners would have jumped at 'trying to look after their own.'


The tories won't leave the EU. My excuse isn't biased newspapers but a distorted view on the treaty itself. I understand the EU is unpopular.

This is my last post because frankly I'm never going to change your tory-tory opinion on the world and you're never going to change me.

---

Too many good reasons? - ask the general public then if you think signing away sovereignty and paying them to rule us is a good reason. As I said before, our politicians are in the grip of the EU and the ones who don't support the EU usually get thrown out of the party/put to the back benches, and yes sadly and annoyingly its on the tory side aswell.

You may disagree but economics do not.

Thanks to our voting system UKIP do not get a voice, even though they recieve many votes. Our voting system is designed to keep smaller parties out and the bigger parties in. Believe you me, UKIP will continue to grow and the EU will become a issue. We need someone who will not sign away our sovereignty away the moment they are elected in our parliament.

That is rubbish, its proven that we pay much more for our food than it is worth and that other countries pay. Thanks to limits on our fishing and our farming, not to mention the pathetic rule that means we throw away vegtables like for instance, a carrot which is slightly bent. What a waste and what a disgrace. The french fisherman are protesting against the EU, so if you support the EU it is nothing to be proud of.

No I read it because it tells the truth about what a power grabbing union this is, what does the Guardian tell me? - how i'm going to die in 10 years from global warming, no thanks thats not my cup of tea. Again, Margaret Thatcher said years ago and warned about how the EU was becoming a superstate, her claims were dismissed by Labour, Liberal Democrats and the EU itself; now look at it, a motto, emblem and anthem? - what planet are these eurocrats on!

We are hated by europe why don't you get this, if Britain doesn't do what it is told by the EU then the EU hates it, as with Thatcher. Anyone who stands up to it is considered a nail in the thumb and the sooner they are got rid of, the better from the EU point of view. Please don't lecture me on how the tories supposedly ruined our economy, because that is utter rubbish. Our pound sterling has remained a strong currency since the 1980's and certainly wouldn't of been a strong currency throughout them years if Labour had continued on with post war decline and strikes, my dad remembers rubbish piling up on the streets, it was an absolute disgrace and a blot on this countrys history.

Oh yes, the rebate secured by Margaret Thatcher who the EU hate. Now we see how glad they were when she was gone, and how they made Tony Blair sign away much of the rebate when he gained office - that is democratic now isn't it of them!

As for the NHS I didn't say it was privatised, I think it shouldn't be run like a central command economy as it is now. However non-essential services like rail, and so forth are not a use to everyone, so why should we pay for something we do not use. The NHS needs to be managed better, as healthcare is essential to everyone.

The UN is called democracy, something socialism hates. Members with different views coming together and discussing issues is what is needed in a world democracy. France is totally different from this country, and I wouldn't say France love socialism, their economy is very capitalist and their social politics swap from socialist to conservative often, at the moment it is conservative.

The EU rebate?, i'm sorry but I don't think giving the EU a certain amount and recieving less back is any good at all? - where do you get this view from its astonishing?, thats like charging yourself on your own money!

The G20 has more chance again, of finding a solution. If you agree the EU is unpopular then why will you not agree to a referendum, or just let it die like it should of as soon as it started meddling in places it shouldn't. It is our sovereignty, our country and not europes. The people of europe do not want it - but I suppose that is where socialism hits the rocks, because it never will understand what the people want, it will only ever work for its own selfish needs and now it is forming a union which we are throwing more and more of our sovereignty away into.

If the EU was giving us billions in extra money (which its not, we are actually paying them) to change our laws/economics, then I still wouldn't agree with it. We vote in our parliament for our rules and that is why we fought two world wars not to be controlled by europe, now we're willingly signing it over.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Too many good reasons? - ask the general public then if you think signing away sovereignty and paying them to rule us is a good reason. As I said before, our politicians are in the grip of the EU and the ones who don't support the EU usually get thrown out of the party/put to the back benches, and yes sadly and annoyingly its on the tory side aswell.

---

The 'general public' go on holidays in the EU, visa free. The 'general public' move abroad and work abroad with no restrictions, the 'general public' work for multi-national firms or farms that export abroad with no restrictions, the 'general public' consume goods and food that are monitored heavily and need to pass health checks (E-numbers for example), the 'general public' are protected from this governments incompitance by the EU, the 'general public' import goods cheaper from foreign countires, the 'general public' get polish plumbers to fit their new bathrooms, the 'general public' benefit from the EU Social Fund on projects that are refused government funding, the 'general public' can take back as much wine and **** from europe as they can consume, the 'general public' can use other EU embassies abroad if the british one is shut, the 'general public' can study abroad in programs at university with ease. The whole lot of Liverpool has been retransformed with EU money, a place which some people could argue that the national government forgot for example.

Quote:

---

Thanks to our voting system UKIP do not get a voice, even though they recieve many votes. Our voting system is designed to keep smaller parties out and the bigger parties in. Believe you me, UKIP will continue to grow and the EU will become a issue. We need someone who will not sign away our sovereignty away the moment they are elected in our parliament.

---

They obviously aren't a big enough party yet then are they.

Quote:

---

That is rubbish, its proven that we pay much more for our food than it is worth and that other countries pay. Thanks to limits on our fishing and our farming, not to mention the pathetic rule that means we throw away vegtables like for instance, a carrot which is slightly bent. What a waste and what a disgrace. The french fisherman are protesting against the EU, so if you support the EU it is nothing to be proud of.

---

It is true, we pay more, but what i meant was that our goods going abroad will cost more if we are not in the EU.

Quote:

---

No I read it because it tells the truth about what a power grabbing union this is, what does the Guardian tell me? - how i'm going to die in 10 years from global warming, no thanks thats not my cup of tea. Again, Margaret Thatcher said years ago and warned about how the EU was becoming a superstate, her claims were dismissed by Labour, Liberal Democrats and the EU itself; now look at it, a motto, emblem and anthem? - what planet are these eurocrats on!

---

The motto, emblem and anthem have since been removed from the treaty.

Quote:

---

We are hated by europe why don't you get this, if Britain doesn't do what it is told by the EU then the EU hates it, as with Thatcher. Anyone who stands up to it is considered a nail in the thumb and the sooner they are got rid of, the better from the EU point of view. Please don't lecture me on how the tories supposedly ruined our economy, because that is utter rubbish. Our pound sterling has remained a strong currency since the 1980's and certainly wouldn't of been a strong currency throughout them years if Labour had continued on with post war decline and strikes, my dad remembers rubbish piling up on the streets, it was an absolute disgrace and a blot on this countrys history.

---

The french dislike the germans, the french dislike the spanish, we like the dutch, we like the nordic states, we dislike the... oh whatever. My parents are conservative, my area has been a conservative stronghold for over 20 years. But many towns and villages near where I live are desperately poor, Derby isn't the richest place, neither is nottingham, these, sheffield and other more northern cities have felt social decline since industries and coal mines have been driven out.

Quote:

---

Oh yes, the rebate secured by Margaret Thatcher who the EU hate. Now we see how glad they were when she was gone, and how they made Tony Blair sign away much of the rebate when he gained office - that is democratic now isn't it of them!

As for the NHS I didn't say it was privatised, I think it shouldn't be run like a central command economy as it is now. However non-essential services like rail, and so forth are not a use to everyone, so why should we pay for something we do not use. The NHS needs to be managed better, as healthcare is essential to everyone.

---

Rail, buses, dentists, power, water, gas and telephone should all be publically owned so foreign owners don't come in and just rip us off. Which is what has happened.

Quote:

---

The UN is called democracy, something socialism hates. Members with different views coming together and discussing issues is what is needed in a world democracy. France is totally different from this country, and I wouldn't say France love socialism, their economy is very capitalist and their social politics swap from socialist to conservative often, at the moment it is conservative.

---

UN is not a democracy as the main people can veto resolutions. Therefore it isn't a democracy. France is much more left wing in it's people.

Quote:

---

The EU rebate?, i'm sorry but I don't think giving the EU a certain amount and recieving less back is any good at all? - where do you get this view from its astonishing?, thats like charging yourself on your own money!

---

You could see it as the cost of letting British people/companies compete on a european level.

Quote:

---

The G20 has more chance again, of finding a solution. If you agree the EU is unpopular then why will you not agree to a referendum, or just let it die like it should of as soon as it started meddling in places it shouldn't. It is our sovereignty, our country and not europes. The people of europe do not want it - but I suppose that is where socialism hits the rocks, because it never will understand what the people want, it will only ever work for its own selfish needs and now it is forming a union which we are throwing more and more of our sovereignty away into.

If the EU was giving us billions in extra money (which its not, we are actually paying them) to change our laws/economics, then I still wouldn't agree with it. We vote in our parliament for our rules and that is why we fought two world wars not to be controlled by europe, now we're willingly signing it over.

---

The G20 is a joke. It's just a time where everyone can come together, have a bit of a drink and a dance, show off to the TV cameras that they are internationally co-operating. The global stimulous plan was not mostly new money, but money that already been pledged.

I hate this whole 'we fought the war to keep them out' stuff. The 'what would our war heroes think now.' You know what i think, I think they'd be glad that we aren't fighting each other anymore and we are united in what we do. Maybe they don't agree with how much sovereignty we pool, but I don;t think they'd be against any sort of council of europe. Because what we were really fighting was German Facism, not 'Europe.' We were fighting for our freedom, which is what the German's lost in voting for the Nazis. I think we will get a referendum (or it won't pass in the house of commons), the Lisbon Treaty, which is slightly different (albeit very similiar) to the constitution.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alexxxxx

The 'general public' go on holidays in the EU, visa free. The 'general public' move abroad and work abroad with no restrictions, the 'general public' work for multi-national firms or farms that export abroad with no restrictions, the 'general public' consume goods and food that are monitored heavily and need to pass health checks (E-numbers for example), the 'general public' are protected from this governments incompitance by the EU, the 'general public' import goods cheaper from foreign countires, the 'general public' get polish plumbers to fit their new bathrooms, the 'general public' benefit from the EU Social Fund on projects that are refused government funding, the 'general public' can take back as much wine and **** from europe as they can consume, the 'general public' can use other EU embassies abroad if the british one is shut, the 'general public' can study abroad in programs at university with ease. The whole lot of Liverpool has been retransformed with EU money, a place which some people could argue that the national government forgot for example.



They obviously aren't a big enough party yet then are they.


It is true, we pay more, but what i meant was that our goods going abroad will cost more if we are not in the EU.


The motto, emblem and anthem have since been removed from the treaty.


The french dislike the germans, the french dislike the spanish, we like the dutch, we like the nordic states, we dislike the... oh whatever. My parents are conservative, my area has been a conservative stronghold for over 20 years. But many towns and villages near where I live are desperately poor, Derby isn't the richest place, neither is nottingham, these, sheffield and other more northern cities have felt social decline since industries and coal mines have been driven out.


Rail, buses, dentists, power, water, gas and telephone should all be publically owned so foreign owners don't come in and just rip us off. Which is what has happened.


UN is not a democracy as the main people can veto resolutions. Therefore it isn't a democracy. France is much more left wing in it's people.


You could see it as the cost of letting British people/companies compete on a european level.


The G20 is a joke. It's just a time where everyone can come together, have a bit of a drink and a dance, show off to the TV cameras that they are internationally co-operating. The global stimulous plan was not mostly new money, but money that already been pledged.

I hate this whole 'we fought the war to keep them out' stuff. The 'what would our war heroes think now.' You know what i think, I think they'd be glad that we aren't fighting each other anymore and we are united in what we do. Maybe they don't agree with how much sovereignty we pool, but I don;t think they'd be against any sort of council of europe. Because what we were really fighting was German Facism, not 'Europe.' We were fighting for our freedom, which is what the German's lost in voting for the Nazis. I think we will get a referendum (or it won't pass in the house of commons), the Lisbon Treaty, which is slightly different (albeit very similiar) to the constitution.

---

The general public could travel to europe regardless of the EU, what pathetic excuse for signing away sovereignty. If the general public felt this way they would support the EU, and no doubt we would of been asked if we wanted the Libson Treaty if the public were in support; why?, because they would only hold a referendum if they were sure of a victory. As for Liverpool please don't lecture me about my own city, I know what happend in Liverpool and its this; after the toxteth riots Michael Heseltine visited the city and many new modern buildings were built in that period, which saw Liverpool beginning to transform. As for recent money that has gone into the city, it has not been EU money it has come from central government. Even if it had come from the EU, we could of had even more money if the government hadn't given it to the EU in the first place, again your acting as if the EU is giving us money, it is taking our money, taxing it and giving us some of it back.

No they aren't, thanks to us not having proportional representation and the fact that the main parties want to keep the EU off the agenda because it is an embaraessment to them all.

Then basically the economic side of the EU is also worthless, in a global world like now none of this will matter anymore, and that is precisely why the EU is changing from an economic union to a political union. It has absolutly no value or place in our country, it costs us billions, takes away our right to govern ourselves and is a biased organisation which refuses to accept conflicting opinions with its own, and will not take no for an answer.

They have been removed from the treaty, but will no doubt be side-slipped in the new EU once the Lisbon Treaty is in place. The original treaty showed us their eventual aim, so since it got rejected they had no choice but to water it down, their motive for it is still there and they will not rest until they achieve their eventual aim.

No it is true, I have even proven it with a french officals' opinion on the Thatcher government which clearly indictated their delight in our voted in Prime Minister toppling from power as a result of the EU. How can you say areas such as Sheffield and so on have suffered?, the country has got richer and city centres in places like Sheffield have been transformed from post-war industrial wrecks to growing financial cities. Would you rather the poor be poorer?

You will never ever have both rich and poor on the same level and nor is that right, but you can have both groups better off as is what happend thanks to the Thatcher government. The thing socialism cannot grasp is that wealth creates investment which in turn creates jobs. Foreign ownership is not ideal, but i'm afraid paying higher taxes for services a lot of our parents do not use is not fair and is not right either, if a small section of the public use the trains, why should the all of the public have to pay for them services even when they are not using them? - they shouldn't, it is that simple. When you have services that are run by the government not only do they require the same amount to run, they do not have the motivation or will to make a profit, because they will always have public money to support them so it wouldn't matter at all if they didn't make a profit. Then you have the unions who constantly strike and kept on striking in order to influence the government even though most of the workers didn't want to strike, and of course the Labour government of the day eventually gave in because it had to, whereas a private company can only put wages up so much. The trouble in the 1980's was the unions and militants who could not stand losing their grip on power and were fully fledged militant communists/socialists who hated the thought of people working for themselves. Arthur Scargill, what a disgrace and complete idiot, but a still remembered as a beacon to socialists.

I'm sorry but the French voted in Nicholas Sarkozy, a conservative over a socialist. Therefore that argument is now defunct, social politics in a country change all the time regardless, economic politics don't and France has been a predominently capitalist economy for a long time. The French take pride in independance and working for your own means, thats precisely why they send the immigrants over here because they will not dare stand for sloppy immigration policies like we sadly do from our pathetic government.

The UN in a democracy, and if thats not a democracy then i'm afraid the EU is undescribable. No EU supporter can claim the UN is not a democratic body when the EU denies its people the right to vote on whether it should even exist.

The soldiers would like a united europe, but not a nation of europe, which is what Sir Winston Churchill also wanted. I'm afraid we can be a united europe without signing away our sovereignty and pouring money into the EU, just like we are allies with the United States. I don't see the United States demand we hand over sovereignty and money to them to be their ally. Therefore that argument is also defunct, you do not have to be in a union to have allies/security; but of course you will not agree as that is another excuse for us to surrender power by using the means to scare the public.

I doubt we will recieve a referendum (not if Labour can help it), and if we do, it will lose; which is excellent. The first step must be to stop the EU in its tracks, the second must be to eradicate it.