Does religion have a positive or negative influence on society? [ENDS 31/01/2010]

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Originally Posted by DrLacero

No, the American Revolutionary War was over the American colonists not obeying the laws of the British parliament.



No, that was over land and differences in ideology between Catholics and Church of England

Spanish Civil War

No, that was a corrupt monarchy and the Catalonia and Basque religions wanting independence which pissed off the Catholics.



No idea why Napoleon wanted an empire, why does anyone?



Border conflict over Texas.



Mussolini wanted an empire, so he took on the poorly-armed Abyssinians, one of very few indipendant African countries.



Holding of a religion was never outlawed and the Soviet Constitutions always guaranteed the right to believe. Most of the people Stalin killed were the Intelligencia and Aristos.

And where the hell did you get 180 million?

20 Million (Stalin) + 6 Million (Holocaust) = 26 Million.

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Exactly all proof that wars exist outside of Religion, via Nationalism, Expansion and Racism.

Dr David Barrett; The Fruit of Atheism. A few extracts.


As Dr. James Kennedy in ”What If Jesus Had Never Been Born?” observes: ”That vacuum has been filled with the totalitarian state, the loss of freedom for millions, the concentration camp and the gulag, the rise of abortion, infanticide, euthanasia and suicide, crime out of all proportion, and the most savage wars in the history of the world.”

The triumph of secular humanism with its atheism, evolutionism and situation ethics has led to the rise of gangster statesmen such as Vladimir Lenin, Joseph Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Fidel Castro, Pol Pot, Robert Mugabe and many more like them.

~~~Regarding the 180 Death toll~~~

Joseph Stalin was responsible for killing over 40 million people. Joseph Stalin closed down over 48 000 churches, and attempted the liquidation of the entire Christian Church.

Similarly, communist dictator of China Mao Tse Tung launched the Great Proletariat Cultural Revolution, ”History’s most systematic attempt ever, by a single nation, to eradicate and destroy Christianity…” Mao was responsible for killing about 72 million people.

The communist takeover of Cambodia in 1975 resulted in the death of up to 3 million people - a full third of the total population. When we add to these the death toll of communist regimes in Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Afghanistan, Ethiopia, Angola, Mozambique, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Cuba, and Zimbabwe, the body count is staggering.

As Dostoevsky so eloquently put it: ”If God is dead, then all things are possible!”

Extremely valid point:
The terrifying thing about secular atheism states is that there is no authority above the state to which one can make an appeal. The concept of ”inalienable rights” endowed by a Creator are of course impossible in a secular state. If the state itself is the highest authority, then there are no limits to the abuses and oppression that unrestrained human nature is capable of. The humanist state inevitably leads to tyranny and despotism.

Sergio also makes a good point about Religion giving people hope and faith.

I'm an atheist so it's going to be of no surprise my view on this but I think largely negative. I do have several reasons for this, many of which have probably been set out in this thread already but before I start, in reference to whoever wrote that without religion we'd all implode and start being generally lawless, just no. I've never had any belief in God or a higher power, and not once have I ever considered breaking the law or harming someone because of it.

Anyway, onto my reasons. Religion is negative because if you look at it, the majority of wars have some sort of religious undertone. How anyone can say they are representing their God in a war of all things is beyond me because as far as I know God said we should all get along.. so where's all this fighting coming from? Not to mention that it creates prejudices between religions which is again a negative. Religion also creates extremism, people who are willing to pretty much break every rule in their holy book in the name of their god.. which sort of negates the point to me.

Further to this, religion, organised at least, creates too many boundaries and rules, the majority of which limit a persons life because they are afraid of what might happen to them (heaven/hell etc). I don't believe that a person should have their life governed by something that they believe in, it should be solely a source of comfort, not fear.

As someone else has said, it creates disgusting stereotypes. Homophobia is supposedly wrong in almost every single mainstream religion and for someone who doesn't believe in God to see the hypocrisy of this beggers belief to me because some who follow it cannot see it. If God created us all as equals and loves us all, why would he hate gays? He wouldn't because that would make god a hypocrite and an omniscient being such as God is unlikely to be that is he? Again with the inequality of women, if womankind was made from Adam then how are we any different or less to a man? We aren't and yet certain religions see fit to impose that upon us, not so much now so but that is how it has been for centuries and is still the case in the church (as shown by the banning of women priests).


In order for balance to exist, I do think that religion has positives but they are largely outweighed by the negatives in my mind. Yes religion does provide a source of comfort for many, I know it did for my nanna and my mum when she died. I also know that it is often the religious charities that go out and help the homeless, the needy and even those who have been victims of natural disasters. Both of these are brilliant and religion should be applauded for providing it, but like I said, the other points I raised are stronger in my mind.


I've not really written that very well, been a long day and my words aren't coming out coherently but hopefully it makes some sense at least.

I understand what your saying Tash, I don't want to offend but once again your slipping into the classic mistake of thinking that only two religions exist - Islam and Christianity.

Religion is negative because if you look at it, the majority of wars have some sort of religious undertone. How anyone can say they are representing their God in a war of all things is beyond me because as far as I know God said we should all get along.

-Religion does play a huge role in warfare, and for this reason it is extremely positive. Consider this, no religion, no reason to try and justify a war in terms of Divinity, no higher power than the state.
Most leaders pepper speeches with Religion because they know that declaring a war needs to be religiously justified. In terms of the Roman Catholics, the minuet the Pope denounces the war, all support with fall apart.
Without anything higher than the state totalitarianism reigns. Classic example: The Third Reich. The fighting is coming from the perversion of holy scriptures by those who see that they need to overcome religion and make their cause appear just.

Religion also creates extremism, people who are willing to pretty much break every rule in their holy book in the name of their god.. which sort of negates the point to me

- You don't get more extreme than Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, Lenin, Amin, Mugabe, Tse-Tung, amongst others. Your Atheist martyrs.

Further to this, religion, organised at least, creates too many boundaries and rules, the majority of which limit a persons life because they are afraid of what might happen to them (heaven/hell etc).

- A couple of laws that Religion try's to enforce, please outline which ones you think society would benefit from if it was seen as acceptable.

Ten Commandments (Foundation laws of Christianity and parts of Islam)

ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.' - Not to deny ones religion.

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.' - Force people to believe you are high then God. (See: Charles I, Stalin, Amin)

THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.' - Manners.

FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.' - A day of rest (Remember without Religion forget Religious international holidays, also forget Weekends, as Saturday and Sunday are the Sabbath days).

FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.' - If you don't do this already you should be ashamed.

SIX: 'You shall not murder.' - ...

SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.' - Honouring marriage and relationships.

EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.' - ... even if its the only way I'm ever going to get an Aston Martin, Sigh.

NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.' - To remain truthful.

TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife. - The hardest of all to obey, we're talking the seven sins, particularly lust and envy.

The Ten Precepts (Buddhism)

Refrain from taking life. - ...
Refrain from stealing. - ...
Refrain from sexual misconduct. - Honouring relationships.
Refrain from lying. - ...
Refrain from using intoxicants. - For ones own health. Alternativley it is acceptable to drink alcohol aslong as one does not intoxicant themselves beyond mindset.
Refrain from gossiping. - ...
Refrain from praising oneself. - Arrogance.
Refrain from meanness. - ...
Refrain from aggression. - ...
Refrain from slandering the Three Jewels. - This is basically respecting each other and not denouncing ones self also.

Like I said, is it the murdering or the sexual deviance that you would think makes these simple rules restrictive?

Homophobia is supposedly wrong in almost every single mainstream religion and for someone who doesn't believe in God to see the hypocrisy of this beggers belief to me because some who follow it cannot see it.

- Like I said, I can think of one religion where this might be applied. I know for a fact that Christianity, Buddhism, Taoism, Conservative Judaism, Episcopal, United Church of Christ, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, Puritan and Scientology are openly acceptable of homosexuality. This is your most valid point.

Hopefully I have enlightened a little bit to the common misconceptions.

Mostly positive. It's just extremeists who misinterpret the bible etc and use it for their own selfish means that I have a problem with. In general, religion is good, it can give people a sense of purpose in life and that should not be discouraged.

Those who commit crimes in the name of their god are a disgrace to their religion.

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Originally Posted by TaffTalk

Positive.

Imagine being told there is no God, no afterlife, this is it. Your one and only chance.
Society would imploud. The 7 Billion People in the world who believe in faith would kill, rape, steal and rob their way to the best life they could get, as this is their only chance.
Religion is what separates us from the animals.

Like it or not, without Religion, there would be no need to conform to any society, to any law. War would be a thing of the past, war would be routine.

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I think the punishment of incarceration, or, in some countries, execution, is what prevents people from committing crime, not religion lol.

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Originally Posted by TaffTalk

I understand what your saying Tash, I don't want to offend but once again your slipping into the classic mistake of thinking that only two religions exist - Islam and Christianity.

Religion is negative because if you look at it, the majority of wars have some sort of religious undertone. How anyone can say they are representing their God in a war of all things is beyond me because as far as I know God said we should all get along.

-Religion does play a huge role in warfare, and for this reason it is extremely positive. Consider this, no religion, no reason to try and justify a war in terms of Divinity, no higher power than the state.
Most leaders pepper speeches with Religion because they know that declaring a war needs to be religiously justified. In terms of the Roman Catholics, the minuet the Pope denounces the war, all support with fall apart.
Without anything higher than the state totalitarianism reigns. Classic example: The Third Reich. The fighting is coming from the perversion of holy scriptures by those who see that they need to overcome religion and make their cause appear just.

Religion also creates extremism, people who are willing to pretty much break every rule in their holy book in the name of their god.. which sort of negates the point to me

- You don't get more extreme than Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, Lenin, Amin, Mugabe, Tse-Tung, amongst others. Your Atheist martyrs.

Further to this, religion, organised at least, creates too many boundaries and rules, the majority of which limit a persons life because they are afraid of what might happen to them (heaven/hell etc).

- A couple of laws that Religion try's to enforce, please outline which ones you think society would benefit from if it was seen as acceptable.

Ten Commandments (Foundation laws of Christianity and parts of Islam)

ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.' - Not to deny ones religion.

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.' - Force people to believe you are high then God. (See: Charles I, Stalin, Amin)

THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.' - Manners.

FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.' - A day of rest (Remember without Religion forget Religious international holidays, also forget Weekends, as Saturday and Sunday are the Sabbath days).

FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.' - If you don't do this already you should be ashamed.

SIX: 'You shall not murder.' - ...

SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.' - Honouring marriage and relationships.

EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.' - ... even if its the only way I'm ever going to get an Aston Martin, Sigh.

NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.' - To remain truthful.

TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife. - The hardest of all to obey, we're talking the seven sins, particularly lust and envy.

The Ten Precepts (Buddhism)

Refrain from taking life. - ...
Refrain from stealing. - ...
Refrain from sexual misconduct. - Honouring relationships.
Refrain from lying. - ...
Refrain from using intoxicants. - For ones own health. Alternativley it is acceptable to drink alcohol aslong as one does not intoxicant themselves beyond mindset.
Refrain from gossiping. - ...
Refrain from praising oneself. - Arrogance.
Refrain from meanness. - ...
Refrain from aggression. - ...
Refrain from slandering the Three Jewels. - This is basically respecting each other and not denouncing ones self also.

Like I said, is it the murdering or the sexual deviance that you would think makes these simple rules restrictive?

Homophobia is supposedly wrong in almost every single mainstream religion and for someone who doesn't believe in God to see the hypocrisy of this beggers belief to me because some who follow it cannot see it.

- Like I said, I can think of one religion where this might be applied. I know for a fact that Christianity, Buddhism, Taoism, Conservative Judaism, Episcopal, United Church of Christ, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, Puritan and Scientology are openly acceptable of homosexuality. This is your most valid point.

Hopefully I have enlightened a little bit to the common misconceptions.

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I actually wasn't considering only 2 religions, I was considering at least 3. The most recent wars are fought between traditionally christian and muslim countries (UK/US v Iraq/Afganistan). However, in my mind was also the conflicts between muslims and hindus which have also caused thousands if not millions of deaths over the years.

I don't get your point about the wars though. Wars do not automatically stop just because the Pope denounces them. He has no real influence on anyone outside of catholicism. His opinion matters nought to me or to anyone of a different religion. And any person or regime who is hell bent on starting a war does not need any real justification other than what he/she feels is necessary.

You again used examples of people who were almost all at one point part of a religion. The fact that they turned against it does not take away the fact that Hitler especially used his hatred of a certain religion (or race as he saw it) to massacre millions of people.

There is nothing wrong with the rules you posted, those weren't what I referred to. What I meant for example was someone of the islamic faith having to pray a certain amount of times a day, having to fast etc.. that imposes time constraints on your life and without religion they wouldn't be there.

And finally, Christianity (I can't comment on the others because i've not looked into it) does not as a whole accept homosexuals. There is outrage when there is news of a gay priest, many don't believe that a promise between two men/women means as much as one between a man and a woman.. I need not go on because the inequality is now clear.

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Originally Posted by Tash.

You again used examples of people who were almost all at one point part of a religion. The fact that they turned against it does not take away the fact that Hitler especially used his hatred of a certain religion (or race as he saw it) to massacre millions of people.

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Simply these are the best examples and easily recognisable, others, pure Atheists if that's what you want, include; Maximillion Robespierre (Promptly butchered 40,000 people upon gaining his country in the name of Atheism), Kim II Sung (Massacred 5 Million), Mao Zedong (40 Million).. etc.. etch..

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Originally Posted by Tash.

And finally, Christianity (I can't comment on the others because i've not looked into it) does not as a whole accept homosexuals. There is outrage when there is news of a gay priest, many don't believe that a promise between two men/women means as much as one between a man and a woman.. I need not go on because the inequality is now clear.

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I think you mean the Roman Catholic Church is reluctant to view Homosexuality, however this has changed, as current cardinal members are openly homosexual. Puritan, Anglican, Presbyterian, Baptist, Quaker, Brethren, Jehovah etc. are all acceptian of Homosexuals. There is more than one church...

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Originally Posted by Inseriousity.

Mostly positive. It's just extremeists who misinterpret the bible etc and use it for their own selfish means that I have a problem with. In general, religion is good, it can give people a sense of purpose in life and that should not be discouraged.

Those who commit crimes in the name of their god are a disgrace to their religion.

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I think you mean the Qur'an or w.e

There's not been many Christian extremists lately :P

I would say racisim plays a big part in it.
For example say your in school and someones being racist towards you your not just going to stand there and take it ? people just get sick of it after a while until they eventualy break. It's hard to ignore it because it happens all the time.

Not too sure on this, but negative?

Manily because of how all people cannot get along. This world is full of different people, different religions, beliefs, cultures, etc. People are never and most probably will never be excepted for the way they are. A main thing i'd point out as outstanding due to the amount of people committing to it, is racism. It's only a colour of your skin. Like how some black people hate white people, and some white hate black. It's like saying you have blue eyes I don't like you... I see it as only a feature, just like everything else on your body. Some people's eyes are green some are blue.

People will always argue over there beliefs. How each religion believes a different way in which the world was made. It will never be a win win where we stick to our beliefs and they stick to they're's, there will always be constructive critisism over it. Another thing which crosses my mind is Homophobia. Christians believe in the eyes of 'Gods' words, that a man shall never lay beside another man. Sure, but if a man falls in love with a man or a woman falls in love with a woman, hows that to be helped? Feelings cannot always be controlled. And as for what David said above, how can people say to Gays/Lesbians and Bisexuals that god hates gays, meaning god hates you is constructive enough to say that it is really wrong. God surely wouldn't like them if they said that? I could rabble on more but I wont.

I officially agree with David. If there was no religon there would be less sexism, homophobia, racism, etc. As we would all believe in one thing, but not have rules related to that religon pulled over our eyes for believing it.