Should prisoners have a right to vote? [ENDS 10/06/2012]

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Punishment, as I stated in the other thread and which I will reply to soon. The problem is, you keep confusing prison as a holding cell as opposed to a place of punishment, the loss of your voting rights is one method used in this country to punish criminals. If somebody does something considered to be evil or disruptive to others liberty or property then you must have a system in place to punish those who step out of line so that they fear doing so again - that is what punishment entails.

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Yet more words that don't explain why. Punishment is a meaningless concept.

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Originally Posted by Chippiewill

People keep saying they lose their right when they commit the crime but no-one has actually explained why.

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They lose many fundamental human rights like freedom of expression, liberty, belief (incl. freedom of thought) when in prison. Considering voting is a legal right and not a human right, it is safe to say they can live without voting when they do not need it to live a fulfilled and safe life. That's a short-hard explanation.

Imprisonment breaches many obvious human rights that something as small and meaningless to a convict like voting is something they can do without and do not require when in prison. Besides, if the Government want those who have been through the prison system to vote, then it's best to ask ex-convicts and get their vote in the elections when they are free to live their human rights, rather than get a false represenation from someone in prison who hasn't acted in accordance with honest, reasonable people - the basic principles of being a decent human being in criminal law.

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Originally Posted by Chippiewill

Yet more words that don't explain why. Punishment is a meaningless concept.

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Then you completely surrender to evil and bad people in relation to crime even to school discipline. If you do not believe a child should be punished (ie, something bad occurs to them to teach them not to do that again) then you condemn yourself and your fellow subjects to anarchy much in the same way that you claim that a thief ought to not be punished (ie, something bad occurs to them to teach them not to do it again) when he commits a crime.

If you claim punishment does not exist, as I have given numerous examples - then frankly you're talking drivel. To sit there and simply dismiss punishment as 'a meaningless concept' shows to me you think we ought to completely give up on the notion of law and order in society, in which any case why even continue in a debate which is built around to punish or not to punish?

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Originally Posted by GommeInc

They lose many fundamental human rights like freedom of expression, liberty, belief (incl. freedom of thought) when in prison. Considering voting is a legal right and not a human right, it is safe to say they can live without voting when they do not need it to live a fulfilled and safe life. That's a short-hard explanation.

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It is meaningless to even attempt to address his concerns, he states above he does not believe in the concept of punishment which you correctly explain in depth providing examples of legal punishments - i'm afraid he is engaged in a school of 'thought' which comes across to me as having roots in sociology and which consquentley holds as much intellectual weight as I would if I claimed I no longer believed in the existence of the sun, the stars or the moon.

Indeed, in a previous debate he simply labelled punishment as 'revenge' from what I recall - perhaps it is 'revenge' from the point of view of the criminal, but then it would be wouldn't it? the rest of the civilised world takes the right view, that when you do something wrong you are punished (and quite rightly) for it.

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Originally Posted by lawrawrrr

I know that... but what my original point was: if everyone's saying that convicts don't have the right to vote because they broke the law, why should ex cons have different rules? They still broke the law!

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Correct the broke the law, but they have did their debt to society. Therefore, they have all the rights a normal person would have.

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Originally Posted by Andii

well say you got put in prison for something you didn't do and you did care about voting how would that make you feel??? it's wrong to not let people who are in and have been in jail not to vote
That's why they run you thru court. If you know you didn't do what you are accused of, fight it thru the court of law. Hire the best attorney money can get.
everyone should have their own say thats what most campaigns are about

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Originally Posted by Intersocial

Once you break the law, you don't deserve to have a say in anything to do with the law IMO. You've given up all your legal rights by committing the act, so you deserve punishment. Your human rights need to remain but legal rights don't - so you should not have any say in voting at all. As for ex-cons, they've served their punishment so they have every right to vote again.

As for the cases of people unfairly put in prison, it's just an unfortunate occurrence. I'd imagine it be highly unlikely though.

+ Yes, even minor crimes should mean you do not get the right to vote. You have still broken the law, so you don't deserve any say in it.

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You are 100% correct. Once you give up your rights, there is no getting them back until you did your time.

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Originally Posted by Intersocial

Once you break the law, you don't deserve to have a say in anything to do with the law IMO. You've given up all your legal rights by committing the act, so you deserve punishment. Your human rights need to remain but legal rights don't - so you should not have any say in voting at all. As for ex-cons, they've served their punishment so they have every right to vote again.

As for the cases of people unfairly put in prison, it's just an unfortunate occurrence. I'd imagine it be highly unlikely though.

+ Yes, even minor crimes should mean you do not get the right to vote. You have still broken the law, so you don't deserve any say in it.

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well thank god your not in charge of anything lol.

That's one of the most stupidest thing's ive heard in my life even i haven't said anything as stupid as that lol. People who think like that are little minded. Everyone deserves to have their say no matter what. well by WHAT YOUR SAYING people who comit a crime should have their tongues cut out or even just killed because they mean nothing to the country no more????

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Originally Posted by Andii

well thank god your not in charge of anything lol.

That's one of the most stupidest thing's ive heard in my life even i haven't said anything as stupid as that lol. People who think like that are little minded. Everyone deserves to have their say no matter what. well by WHAT YOUR SAYING people who comit a crime should have their tongues cut out or even just killed because they mean nothing to the country no more????

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I did clearly state they still have "human rights", so of course I'm not supporting the idea of their tongues being cut out or what ever. And at this moment, I don't know where I stand in regards to the death penalty.

Under the eyes of the law their say in anything legal (e.g. Voting) should ultimately be removed. Why do they deserve a chance to have a say in who runs a country when they don't even follow the rules themselves?

It's not "little minded", I suspect it is what the large majority of people think in regards to prisoners voting.

Just thank God you're not in control of this country, if you think "everyone" deserves a chance to vote, then I'd imagine you'd stupidly let 6 year children with no clear grasp on society vote for who they want.

everyone over 18 obviously. and people who live here have the right to say what goes on no matter what they did. even if someone blew up half the world they should still have their vote. theres no big deal with it just tick boxes on who you voted for and no one else knows who you voted for anyway. Why should that matter???

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Originally Posted by Andii

everyone over 18 obviously. and people who live here have the right to say what goes on no matter what they did. even if someone blew up half the world they should still have their vote. theres no big deal with it just tick boxes on who you voted for and no one else knows who you voted for anyway. Why should that matter???

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Bold = Oh my days. If someone blew up half the world they should absolutely not get a say because they cannot OBEY THE RULES THEIR GOVERNMENT AND THE UN SET. Refusal to obide by the law = disobeying what the government has set = they're not going to obey any other political party are they? There's no point in them voting if their actions aren't going to be any different under another political party. Besides, due to the UK not actually having a life-long prison sentence (life is only like 20 years here I believe), there is a likelihood they will be able to vote once they've served their time.

And it may not seem a big deal to you "ticking a box", but for the large majority of people it is. I'm pretty sure the lib-con coalition was a "big deal" to quite a large number of people.

Well if it is such a big deal for them and they reall care a lot about the country ten they should be looking to know the thoughts of everyone in the country not just people who are outside of prison. Even people in prison care about people they live. They should have the right to vote for the government to make sure that their family is well looked after. People do crimes for different reasons. To help friends save their family or just because they want to. So everyone defo has the right to vote no question about it

I feel that you give up any claim to your legal rights when you commit the act, and that their loss should be part of the punishment. Once your sentance is over, I see no reason why you can't have your voting rights back again. Saying that, I have a bit of a problem with convicted terrorists being allowed to represent my country in government. Why should (ex)IRA men be allowed that privillege :S