Russian forces enter the Crimea

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Originally Posted by The Don

No matter how you dress it up, this does not justify the armed invasion of a country.

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Usually that would be the case. However, the Ukraine is different in that the areas concerned are along badly drawn borders and that the people wanting independence are Russian people - many of them holding Russian passports. Ideally, both sides would go for a referendum - but this is the reality of geopolitics in that part of the world we're talking about here.

It's either that Ukraine accept the new regime in Kiev and remains unified, or the East of Ukraine somehow detatches itself from Ukraine with the help of Russia. As I support self-determination, if the west won't grant that self-determination option then Russia won't be doing a bad thing by providing it.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Usually that would be the case. However, the Ukraine is different in that the areas concerned are along badly drawn borders and that the people wanting independence are Russian people - many of them holding Russian passports. Ideally, both sides would go for a referendum - but this is the reality of geopolitics in that part of the world we're talking about here.

It's either that Ukraine accept the new regime in Kiev and remains unified, or the East of Ukraine somehow detatches itself from Ukraine with the help of Russia. As I support self-determination, if the west won't grant that self-determination option then Russia won't be doing a bad thing by providing it.

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Don't be naive, loads of people hold russian passports because the kremlin have been giving them out left right and center, as what happened previously with Georgia, so that they could justify the armed invasion as 'protecting the russian minority' which is a complete lie. This also happened in 2008.

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Originally Posted by The Don

Don't be naive, loads of people hold russian passports because the kremlin have been giving them out left right and center, as what happened previously with Georgia, so that they could justify the armed invasion as 'protecting the russian minority' which is a complete lie. This also happened in 2008.

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Hang on, i'm not claiming Russia is all motherhood and apple pie here. You mistake me for somebody who thinks that the Russian government is a gentle, kind and caring government. It's as sneaky as any other government around the world, especially in that part of the world. Brutal too.

What would your solution be then? Merge the Ukraine into the wonderful EU despite the wishes of half of the Ukraine?

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Hang on, i'm not claiming Russia is all motherhood and apple pie here. You mistake me for somebody who thinks that the Russian government is a gentle, kind and caring government. It's as sneaky as any other government around the world, especially in that part of the world.

What would your solution be then? Merge the Ukraine into the wonderful EU despite the wishes of half of the Ukraine?

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No, I think it should split. This does not mean I agree with the armed invasion!

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Originally Posted by The Don

No, I think it should split. This does not mean I agree with the armed invasion!

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But how will it split if the European Union, United States and Ukraine central government don't want a split? A civil war is then risked. From my personal perspective, I really don't care what goes on in the Ukraine as it isn't in the interests of the United Kingdom...... but in the eyes of Russia, that's exactly what it doesn't want happening on it's borders hence why it's considering a pre-emptive invasion.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

The fact that this all began over an EU agreement that was turned down means I have to include the EU factor. The protests themselves are called EUROMAIDEN. The clue is in the name.

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The Ukrainian people did not turn it down, that is the point you keep missing.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Yes, and that is what I am arguing. I said earlier that Ukraine cannot be considered a proper country.

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Ukraine is a proper country. Really, what are you basing these absurd statements on? Do you know anything about Ukraine other than what you've seen on the news in the last few weeks?

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

But how will it split if the European Union, United States and Ukraine central government don't want a split? A civil war is then risked. From my personal perspective, I really don't care what goes on in the Ukraine as it isn't in the interests of the United Kingdom...... but in the eyes of Russia, that's exactly what it doesn't want happening on it's borders hence why it's considering a pre-emptive invasion.

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Again, you're inferring that. There are far more peaceful ways to go about this, and getting permission from the Duma for military use in Ukraine and not just Crimea seems to suggest that they are going to push further than simply the East. Anyway, we're arguing semantics now, you can say what you want, but the interim government hasn't be around for long and the official elections haven't happened yet so it's not as if you know for a fact that a split couldn't have been achieved diplomatically as opposed to the rash actions Russia has taken. Russia are most certainly the 'bad guys' right now (whether or not they are looking out for their own interests).

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Originally Posted by Okeanos

The Ukrainian people did not turn it down, that is the point you keep missing.

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The Ukrainian people in the west of the country.

In any case, is that an excuse for throwing molotov cocktails? I don't start throwing petrol bombs at Whitehall, Downing Street and the Palace of Westminster when I don't get my own way.

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Originally Posted by Okeanos

Ukraine is a proper country. Really, what are you basing these absurd statements on? Do you know anything about Ukraine other than what you've seen on the news in the last few weeks?

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Ukraine isn't a proper country. It's no more a proper country than Belgium, the Sudan, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are proper countries. Ukraine is in desperate need of a split, as are most multicultural countries. The East and West of the Ukraine are totally incompatible with one another hence why it's been so unstable in the post-Soviet era.

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Originally Posted by The Don

Again, you're inferring that. There are far more peaceful ways to go about this, and getting permission from the Duma for military use in Ukraine and not just Crimea seems to suggest that they are going to push further than simply the East.

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I am under no doubt that if Russia do go in they'll go past the East for a short period to destroy any Ukrainian military installations in a similar manner as they did a few years back in Georgia. That's standard warfare.

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Originally Posted by The Don

Anyway, we're arguing semantics now, you can say what you want, but the interim government hasn't be around for long and the official elections haven't happened yet so it's not as if you know for a fact that a split couldn't have been achieved diplomatically as opposed to the rash actions Russia has taken. Russia are most certainly the 'bad guys' right now.

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The central government are ruling out co-operation with the regional government, it's plain to see. Do you really think the EU and US are going to let the Ukraine split which will mean half of the country slipping from their sphere of influence and into the hands of Russia? I very much doubt it. Crimea itself is very important strategically which is why Russia won't let go either of one of it's last warm-water naval bases. Ontop of all of that, the central government in Kiev will not want to let go of the Crimea/the East due to gas and oil reserves located there.... as well as access to the sea. Bankrupt Ukraine needs the cash. The EU and US rolled the dice and took a chance, and it hasn't worked out as they may have wished (all of Ukraine moving from the Russian sphere of influence into the western sphere).

Again, from my own view - I regard any scenario that keeps the Ukraine out of the EU as in the interests of the UK. And that's all I really care about at the end of the day.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

The Ukrainian people in the west of the country.

Ukraine isn't a proper country. It's no more a proper country than Belgium, the Sudan, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are proper countries. Ukraine is in desperate need of a split, as are most multicultural countries. The East and West of the Ukraine are totally incompatible with one another hence why it's been so unstable in the post-Soviet era.

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It's pretty clear to me that you have no idea what you're talking about. As I have already said, this isn't an east versus west issue. The vast majority of Ukrainians support these protests, even Russian speaking Ukrainians in the east and south. Ukraine is not in need of a split, nobody in Ukraine, Russia, the EU or the US wants that. You are being too simplistic; you see that some people (mostly in Crimea and the far east of Ukraine) want to be closer with Russia so you're imagining the whole eastern half of the country wants to break away from the west, this is not the case.

How would you define a 'proper country'?

Why do Russia think they are solving anything by invading? If Ukraine wants to split itself, fair enough, but I'm not sure how Russia is making anything better by being aggressive.