Ukip faces inquiry into abuse of party funds

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Is that the party as a whole? Is that from all of the MEPs? It's like how it was claimed that Farage and Ukip had spent £2m on allowances....... which was true, over a ten year period on campaigning literature, office staff, offices, essentials and so on. That's standard, although it didn't stop the Guardian trying it on.

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It's the UKIP MEPs in 2012. One year.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

In terms of personally benefitting, all of the allowances money must be accounted for as far as I am aware and accounts are audited every year for the MEPs..... if Farage and Ukip were abusing the allowances system then there would be irregularities in the accounts submitted and it would become a criminal matter with OLAF involved. I think this was exactly the charge that former Ukip MEP (he was expelled immediately) Tom Wise was investigated and charged on.

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Aaaaand you're still not getting the point: legal or not, UKIP MEPs are taking tens of thousands each per year from European tax expenses while claiming to be against the whole system

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

You can disagree with the allowances system as I do, but you cannot claim that Farage and others are personally pocketing cash that is not from their wage payments of £70k a year.

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Yes I can due to THE MASSIVE FIGURES THAT I'VE REPEATEDLY POSTED which are not part of their salary. Seriously are you just not reading what's put down or do you not understand what an expense claim is? I'll give you a clue it's when you charge someone else for things that you've bought

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Or rather that's what happens whenever this topic is dragged up, people have a problem differentiating between the Westminster expenses system and the Brussels allowances one.

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Nope I don't think anyone's claiming that they're taking money from the same pot that normal MPs get it from, try again

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Originally Posted by FlyingJesus

It's the UKIP MEPs in 2012. One year.

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Yes, and so?

Again, if anything was being stolen then it would be investigates by OLAF.

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Originally Posted by FlyingJesus

Aaaaand you're still not getting the point: legal or not, UKIP MEPs are taking tens of thousands each per year from European tax expenses while claiming to be against the whole system

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Absolutely, to fund the campaign to get out - not, as you make out, to line their own pockets. The allowances system may be wrong and I agree, but if we can use some of that money (which is British money) to combat the EU's huge multimillion pound propaganda budget, the main three political parties who also use allowances to spend on campaigning and the media - then so we should. If you suggest that Ukip shouldn't take anything from the EU and shouldn't turn up at all like Sinn Fein then that's another argument, but I think we should take advantage of the money the EU makes available and use it against the EU.

Travelling around European capitals & hosting media events costs a lot - SHOCKER!!!!!

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Originally Posted by FlyingJesus

Yes I can due to THE MASSIVE FIGURES THAT I'VE REPEATEDLY POSTED which are not part of their salary. Seriously are you just not reading what's put down or do you not understand what an expense claim is? I'll give you a clue it's when you charge someone else for things that you've bought

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The expenses and allowances will run high, yeah. But to suggest they are personally benefitting or committing fraud is false as OLAF haven't taken any action. As long as the money is going into anti-EU campaigning (which is what allowances are for) as opposed to their personal pockets via fraudulent expenses claims then I have not got a problem with it.

Travelling around European capitals & hosting media events costs a lot - SHOCKER!!!!!

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Originally Posted by FlyingJesus

Nope I don't think anyone's claiming that they're taking money from the same pot that normal MPs get it from, try again

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Again you don't understand what I am saying. I am not saying they are from the same pot, I am pointing out that the Westminster expenses system came under fire because it was for purely personal use by MPs to cover travel costs and hotel bookings - something many were making up as to claim extra expenses. The allowances system in the EU is different in that it allows for the money to be spent on office staff, offices and campaign literature: with bonus funding if you are subscribed to a EU-wide party like the EFD. I disagree with such a system as I don't believe in state funding of political parties, however Ukip are right to take advantage of it.

Do you understand that?

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Yes, and so?

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And so your attempt at saying that it's over the last 10 years is proven false... really how hard is it to look at what part of your inane posts I'm replying to?

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Absolutely, to fund the campaign to get out - not, as you make out, to line their own pockets. The allowances system may be wrong and I agree, but if we can use some of that money (which is British money) to combat the EU's huge multimillion pound propaganda budget, the main three political parties who also use allowances to spend on campaigning and the media - then so we should. If you suggest that Ukip shouldn't take anything from the EU and shouldn't turn up at all like Sinn Fein then that's another argument, but I think we should take advantage of the money the EU makes available and use it against the EU.

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Christ alive you really can't read can you? £420,000 on hotel bills and meals out are not the same as a few hundred on a campaign poster, and hiring your wife for £30k a year in order to *+*KeeP THe MoNeY iiN THe HouSeHoLD*+* is a hilarious pretence for "campaigning and the media"

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

The expenses and allowances will run high, yeah. But to suggest they are personally benefitting or committing fraud is false as OLAF haven't taken any action. As long as the money is going into anti-EU campaigning (which is what allowances are for) as opposed to their personal pockets via fraudulent expenses claims then I have not got a problem with it.

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Haven't said they're committing fraud, do try reading what's actually being said darling. Not sure why you keep banging on about pockets when it's really extremely obvious (from the words that I've actually written; if you read them instead of making up arguments that haven't been put forward it makes things easier) that no-one's pretending that they're taking home the hundreds of thousands that they're needlessly spending on personal comforts like first class travel/accomodation, but that such things are quite blatantly a personal benefit that they're taking

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Again you don't understand what I am saying. I am not saying they are from the same pot, I am pointing out that the Westminster expenses system came under fire because it was for purely personal use by MPs to cover travel costs and hotel bookings - something many were making up as to claim extra expenses. The allowances system in the EU is different in that it allows for the money to be spent on office staff, offices and campaign literature: with bonus funding if you are subscribed to a EU-wide party like the EFD. I disagree with such a system as I don't believe in state funding of political parties, however Ukip are right to take advantage of it.

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AGAIN £420,000 in one year on hotel bills. They also get all first class travel costs claimed for, so that number doesn't even include all of that. Office expenses for that year came to £370,000 for UKIP MEPs, so they have quite clearly claimed more for their personal pleasure and comfort than they have for supposed campaign costs. Hilarious that you then bring up EFD when that's exactly what they're being investigated for at the moment and what this thread was about before you took it off track by talking about something completely different as usual

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Do you understand that?

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Far better than you, clearly

Love how Dan keeps beating around the bush. I would like to add that just because something is not illegal does not mean it's morally right and exempt from criticism. Saying "Oh but its not illegal" is not in any way, shape or form a suitable defence as nobody is questioning whether it's lawful or not.

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Originally Posted by FlyingJesus

And so your attempt at saying that it's over the last 10 years is proven false... really how hard is it to look at what part of your inane posts I'm replying to?

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I was just asking. You are all over the place, you don't even understand the allowances system.

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Originally Posted by FlyingJesus

Christ alive you really can't read can you? £420,000 on hotel bills and meals out are not the same as a few hundred on a campaign poster, and hiring your wife for £30k a year in order to *+*KeeP THe MoNeY iiN THe HouSeHoLD*+* is a hilarious pretence for "campaigning and the media"

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And again you totally miss it. Hotel bills for a group of 10+ MEPs who travel across European capitals from Prague to Brussels, Paris to London and Berlin to Stockholm along with allowance funding that cover HUGE constituencies (not on the same scale as Westminster ones)... it's expected to run into quite high bills really, isn't it?

Here's a graphic to help you understand.

http://www.europarl.org.uk/resource/...Ps/mep_map.gif

Let's say there is a Ukip MEP for every one of those constituencies. They are allowed, and entirely entitled, to fund a campaign along with literature and leaflets to go out across that entire region - some of which have MILLIONS of people living in or hundreds of thousands.

Unlike a Westminster constituency of 70,000 odd. Which is why I support FPTP over PR lists.

And if the wife can be proven (by the auditing OLAF) to be doing the work she is paid for then I haven't a problem with that. Most companies, political parties and smaller jobs hire friends and family for work - it is often as they say not what you know but who you know.

£420,000 divided by 12 is around £35,000-a-year in expenses each. That's not a stupendous amount for a jobt that requirements constant travelling, media events and hotel bookings - as well as train fares.

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Originally Posted by FlyingJesus

Haven't said they're committing fraud, do try reading what's actually being said darling. Not sure why you keep banging on about pockets when it's really extremely obvious (from the words that I've actually written; if you read them instead of making up arguments that haven't been put forward it makes things easier) that no-one's pretending that they're taking home the hundreds of thousands that they're needlessly spending on personal comforts like first class travel/accomodation, but that such things are quite blatantly a personal benefit that they're taking

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Yes you are. You are attempting to paint the picture that the MEPs are on the take - as many have been - in regards to expenses when it's not a simple London to Brussels job whilst serving a small electorate of 70,000 thousand odd. MEPs, and I know Ukip ones do, travel across the continent and stay in expensive cities like Prague which is a part of their job.

That's another reason why an EU parliament is such a lunatic idea. The travelling costs, media costs and translation costs are immensely high just to keep the thing running.

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Originally Posted by FlyingJesus

AGAIN £420,000 in one year on hotel bills. They also get all first class travel costs claimed for, so that number doesn't even include all of that. Office expenses for that year came to £370,000 for UKIP MEPs, so they have quite clearly claimed more for their personal pleasure and comfort than they have for supposed campaign costs. Hilarious that you then bring up EFD when that's exactly what they're being investigated for at the moment and what this thread was about before you took it off track by talking about something completely different as usual

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What would you have them do? If they had rented an apartment in Brussels (which I suspect would be expensive) then you'd be complaining that there's little point as they're never there anyway. So how can they win? It may have escaped you but they've got to sleep somewhere y'know.

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Originally Posted by FlyingJesus

Far better than you, clearly

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Ooooh.

Here's the video with Farage being questioned on his expenses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4lmuLI81SU

Or an even better one talking about allowances and Farage with Dartmouth..... from 15:30 to 18:00.

[CENTER]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WANZFjJ7TlY[/CENTER

As he says, he represents an area that covers 55 UK constituencies yet only has a budget that is slightly higher than that of a single Westminster MP.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Here's the video with Farage being questioned on his expenses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4lmuLI81SU

Or an even better one talking about allowances and Farage with Dartmouth..... from 15:30 to 18:00.

[CENTER]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WANZFjJ7TlY[/CENTER

As he says, he represents an area that covers 55 UK constituencies yet only has a budget that is slightly higher than that of a single Westminster MP.

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But he doesn't go to most of the meetings which sort of ruins your entire argument.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

£420,000 divided by 12 is around £35,000-a-year in expenses each. That's not a stupendous amount for a jobt that requirements constant travelling, media events and hotel bookings - as well as train fares.

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How can I put this simply...


THAT FIGURE IS JUST HOTELS AND MEALS
JUST
HOTELS
AND
MEALS

NOT TRAVEL
NOT EVENTS
NOT CAMPAIGN COSTS

JUST HOTELS AND MEALS

Your inability to read is astounding, almost as pathetic as your fanatical support for people completely failing to do the job you think they're doing

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Yes you are. You are attempting to paint the picture that the MEPs are on the take

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No I'm not, thanks for again (as you have in every single post) putting words in my mouth that I haven't come close to

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

What would you have them do? If they had rented an apartment in Brussels (which I suspect would be expensive) then you'd be complaining that there's little point as they're never there anyway. So how can they win? It may have escaped you but they've got to sleep somewhere y'know.

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I would have them not claim for the most expensive places they could possibly find, especially when they're pretending to be about saving the public money. It may have escaped you but penthouse suites are not the only place one can sleep y'know

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Originally Posted by The Don

But he doesn't go to most of the meetings which sort of ruins your entire argument.

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Not the meetings no, but Farage does attend 55% odd of the parliamentary votes - most of which are pointless anyway. Ontop of that, he's got to manage the EFD which holds media conferences on the continent in Belgium in France. Most of Farage's personal expenses will be spent in the UK since he's here most of the time.

I posted a while back that when I attended a meeting in Liverpool centre, Farage had to leave early (and had been travelling all morning) right after his speech to do more media engagements in others parts of the country as well as town meetings which he holds quite often. Bloom (now independent MEP) also travels the country visiting universities weekly.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Not the meetings no, but Farage does attend 55% odd of the parliamentary votes - most of which are pointless anyway. Ontop of that, he's got to manage the EFD which holds media conferences on the continent in Belgium in France. Most of Farage's personal expenses will be spent in the UK since he's here most of the time.

I posted a while back that when I attended a meeting in Liverpool centre, Farage had to leave early (and had been travelling all morning) right after his speech to do more media engagements in others parts of the country as well as town meetings which he holds quite often. Bloom (now independent MEP) also travels the country visiting universities weekly.

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If they're reaping the benefits they should do the work.