Farage utterly destroyed on air

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16-05-2014, 05:51 PM
The Don

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Debate the issue of mass immigration with us properly, or continue to slur and lose public support as you have done.

I’m not quite sure which thread you’ve been reading, but in this one we have been discussing whether Ukip is racist or not, not mass immigration.

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But you have to point out why open borders are bad and why it is such a big deal, and, it's because we're opening our borders up to two very poor Eastern European countries with high crime levels and which are stricken with poverty. There is a difference between French and Bulgarian immigration just as there's a difference between Brazillian and Pakistani - it is not waycist to point this out.

You don’t have to do anything. If Ukip are happy to choose to use those tactics to secure votes then that speaks more for the morals of those running the campaign than anything else.

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As for your claim concerning a large portion, a large portion maybe but not the majority.

Good job I didn’t say majority then!

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If you are a builder who has had his wages compressed by mass immigration from Eastern Europe over the past decade, then you are going to look at the people coming into the country as the problem as they are the ones who are taking away your trade. That's a natural human reaction. The purpose of Ukip is to funnel those frustrations and concerns - which are legit - at the ballot box targeting the people who are really to blame which are the establishment politicians of the cartel.

‘Funnel those frustrations’ is a fancy way of saying spread hate. You’ve literally just said it yourself, Ukip is manipulating the public and harnessing their frustrations at immigrants and minorities to receive votes.

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Because Romania and Bulgaria are the two countries which have just opened up their borders, duh. We were having the same discussion a few years back on Polish immigration - was that TARGETING the Polish? No, it was a sensible debate.

Are you seriously saying that it isn’t targeting Romania and Bulgaria on a leaflet explicitly naming the two countries as coming to the UK as a problem?

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Well then you are going to lose (you've lost the actual debate already) because that bullcrap doesn't work anymore.

Calling it bullcrap doesn’t make it any less true. I’d say you’re losing the debate since you’re resulting to blindly calling things ‘bullcrap’ rather than providing a constructive argument to that point.

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Huge parts of the country are dominated by areas in which people only speak in public in their native languages, yes.

[CITATION NEEDED]

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But they are coming here to take British jobs.

Are you seriously saying those jobs are ‘our jobs’? Those jobs are there for whomever the employer chooses to hire. They are not explicitly for British people only. I don’t see you blaming those hiring the immigrants though.

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HATE WAAAAAA WAYCISM WAAAAAA BIGOTED WAAAAA HOW DARE ANYBODY DISAGREE WITH ME OR DARE VOICE A CONTROVERSIAL OPINION.

Ah, such an eloquent response. Again, where have I called them racist for having a different opinion? What would you call spreading propaganda about immigrants to channel hate into votes?

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You are again twisting reality into what you want to see. The majority of Britons disagree with you, as shown by the poll I posted above.

Being in the majority doesn’t make you right, and one little poll is hardly anything to be proud of. Let’s look at the facts about Ukips campaigning rather than what other people think.

Pretty funny watching you lose all composure and resorting to name calling when proven wrong.
16-05-2014, 06:05 PM
FlyingJesus

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

In which part is that stated?

It's how the entire discussion begins, and it's clearly something that is a problem since one of the prime offenders (the councillor that Farage didn't even know existed apparently) hasn't been dealt with since his offences in February and that another of his top chaps has been employing illegal immigrants. Furthermore Farage stated "I'm perfectly happy for us to have a debate about our idiots and our people who are offensive" which doesn't suggest that he has anything against such discussion - until questions arise that he can't answer

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

HAHAHA oh yeah. Rightttttt. Well considering this has been going on for over a year now, we're still to see them subjected to this questioning.

I'll use one of your favourite tactics for seeing the future: LET'S SEE HOW LONG THAT LASTS!!!!!

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

You mean like the extra 29,000 Romanians and Bulgarians who have arrived in the last year and the fact that Net migration is UP?

Yes like those. It's one thing to show that migration is up (which no-one disputes anywhere) but entirely another to claim that it's a terrible thing in spite of it being economically beneficial

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

And again you bring race into it when it has nothing to do with race.

[hilarious pic here]

You can't debate things like immigration & integration without giggling like a little baby, i'm done with you on it.

Talking about ghettos and claiming that anyone with a second language can only speak in broken English is nothing to do with race? You also decided with no basis whatsoever that Farage's claim (which was proven false) is probably true: believing things that have been proven false is the very definition of bigotry and yet you claim I'm the one who can't debate. Also not sure where I've been giggling, do feel free to point that out along with any other genuine points you might one day choose to make on the matter

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Yup, the top rated ones with most likes, and to see the ones you posted you have to scroll down a fair bit to see any anti-Farage comments.

Ratings of replies aren't taken into account, the chap in the first quote I used (which is a response to the top comment, not really scrolling far down there) has more "likes" than all but the very top commenter - not that top ratings on the internet actually mean someone is right anyway
16-05-2014, 09:01 PM
-:Undertaker:-

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Originally Posted by The Don

I’m not quite sure which thread you’ve been reading, but in this one we have been discussing whether Ukip is racist or not, not mass immigration.

And it's because Ukip want to discuss mass immigration that you in the media and the cartel call us racist.

It doesn't work anymore, don't you get it? For once, you're all going to have to confront open borders - and it terrifies you.

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Originally Posted by The Don

You don’t have to do anything. If Ukip are happy to choose to use those tactics to secure votes then that speaks more for the morals of those running the campaign than anything else.

But again you see, you think you are in the majority on this as do commentators on the Independent and the Guardian but you are in the minority. The vast majority of the public do not agree with open borders, do not want mass immigration and do not consider the Ukip posters racist. So whilst you hand wringers are all claiming offence, charges of waycism and all the rest of it: you are talking to yourselves within the metropolitan bubble.

Why do you think Ukip is taking swathes of the working class Labour vote now? Because Labour are totally out of touch. The cartel parties inhabit a world that resembles something in the Guardian/BBC Land - it's just not the real world.

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Originally Posted by The Don

Good job I didn’t say majority then!

Yup.

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Originally Posted by The Don

‘Funnel those frustrations’ is a fancy way of saying spread hate. You’ve literally just said it yourself, Ukip is manipulating the public and harnessing their frustrations at immigrants and minorities to receive votes.

But again, any hatred is being directed at the political elite and not immigrants. Huge swathes of this country are fed up to their back teeth with low paid jobs going to immigrants from Eastern Europe, they're sick of the crime that mass immigration brings and they simply do not want to live in an area that doesn't feel anything like England anymore. Melanie Phillips sums it up perfectly, from 3:20 onwards:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3QzfrnsQkE

You can dress it up all you want but those are legitimate concerns. And Ukip are the only party listening to us.

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Originally Posted by The Don

Are you seriously saying that it isn’t targeting Romania and Bulgaria on a leaflet explicitly naming the two countries as coming to the UK as a problem?

Hang on, why shouldn't these two be pointed out?

It is not German and French beggars on the streets of out capital. It is not Belgian and Dutch who are selling big issues. It is not the Danes and Swedes who are coming into this country in the hundreds and thousands and depressing wages for the working class.

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Originally Posted by The Don

Calling it bullcrap doesn’t make it any less true. I’d say you’re losing the debate since you’re resulting to blindly calling things ‘bullcrap’ rather than providing a constructive argument to that point.

No, that's you with your racism bullcrap.

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Originally Posted by The Don

Are you seriously saying those jobs are ‘our jobs’? Those jobs are there for whomever the employer chooses to hire. They are not explicitly for British people only. I don’t see you blaming those hiring the immigrants though.

That is true. But it is also true that the job of the British Government is to look after its subjects, something that allowing hundreds and thousands of cheap workers from Eastern Europeans does not do for the poorest in our society struggling to get work or keep their heads above inflation: the only people that mass immigration benefits are large corporations who love the cheap labour and the politicians and Islington elite who benefits from the cheap nannies, cheap waiters and cheap restaurants.

The problem is, that the rest of us outnumber them.

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Originally Posted by The Don

Ah, such an eloquent response. Again, where have I called them racist for having a different opinion? What would you call spreading propaganda about immigrants to channel hate into votes?

Again you keep arguing with emotional rhetoric throwing words like 'hate' or 'racism' about. As I stated above, those tactics don't work anymore my son. You are going to have to do better than that: Ukip has brought the debate about immigration and open borders to the elite after decades of them not wanting to talk about it. Well now it is time to talk about it whether you like it or not.

But look at you all. You can't talk about it, you think we should shut up about it. No way, learn to deal with it.

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Originally Posted by The Don

Being in the majority doesn’t make you right, and one little poll is hardly anything to be proud of. Let’s look at the facts about Ukips campaigning rather than what other people think.

In a national election I really could care less what the minority in the BBC, Guardian, Independent or the Tory press think - there's no way you are going to vote Ukip under any circumstances. My concern is to appeal to those left behind by the cartal parties and persuade them to abandon their rotten two-faced parties who couldn't give a shiny ****e about them.

And it's working.

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Originally Posted by The Don

Pretty funny watching you lose all composure and resorting to name calling when proven wrong.

Says the one who keeps calling a party of 37,000+ members racist lmfao.

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Originally Posted by FlyingJesus

It's how the entire discussion begins, and it's clearly something that is a problem since one of the prime offenders (the councillor that Farage didn't even know existed apparently) hasn't been dealt with since his offences in February and that another of his top chaps has been employing illegal immigrants. Furthermore Farage stated "I'm perfectly happy for us to have a debate about our idiots and our people who are offensive" which doesn't suggest that he has anything against such discussion - until questions arise that he can't answer

Because if he continues to point out how the other leaders aren't subjected to the same scrutiny then the media jump on his back and accuse him of being a whinger. Ukip has loons within it, but so do the other main parties: the media's attempts to portray loons as an exclusive Ukip problem isn't working as proven by the polls, the British public know a smear campaign when they see one.

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Originally Posted by FlyingJesus

I'll use one of your favourite tactics for seeing the future: LET'S SEE HOW LONG THAT LASTS!!!!!

Oh absolutely, it's been over a year now and I haven't seen any kind of the same scruting applied to Cameron, Miliband or Clegg.

I live in hope, but considering the media are in the pockets of the three cartel parties there's not much a chance of it happening.

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Originally Posted by FlyingJesus

Yes like those. It's one thing to show that migration is up (which no-one disputes anywhere) but entirely another to claim that it's a terrible thing in spite of it being economically beneficial

Mass immigration being economically beneficial is debatable, especially considering most immigrants work for very low wages which are under the amount when somebody actually becomes a net positive in terms of taxation to the state.

It certainly isn't good for those on lower wages.
It certainly isn't good for community cohesion and tensions.
It certainly isn't good in terms of crime figures.

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Originally Posted by FlyingJesus

Talking about ghettos and claiming that anyone with a second language can only speak in broken English is nothing to do with race? You also decided with no basis whatsoever that Farage's claim (which was proven false) is probably true: believing things that have been proven false is the very definition of bigotry and yet you claim I'm the one who can't debate. Also not sure where I've been giggling, do feel free to point that out along with any other genuine points you might one day choose to make on the matter

No, it has nothing to do with race - culture and language can be seperated from race. I don't know if you are aware of this or not - or if you are purposely ignoring it as it doesn't fit into your world view - but we've actually mainly been focusing on mass immigration from Eastern Europe, most of the people of which are white just like me, you and Nigel Farage.

So unless you're accusing Ukip of being Asian/African nationalists with a dislike of white Europeans, you can take a running jump.

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Originally Posted by FlyingJesus

Ratings of replies aren't taken into account, the chap in the first quote I used (which is a response to the top comment, not really scrolling far down there) has more "likes" than all but the very top commenter - not that top ratings on the internet actually mean someone is right anyway

Comments on LBC, the Daily Mail, the Express and the Telegraph are all overwhelmingly on Farage's side.

I suspect it won't be long now until the pro-Tory Daily Mail fix the comment ratings, as they have been doing for weeks now on every single Ukip story.
16-05-2014, 09:33 PM
FlyingJesus

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Because if he continues to point out how the other leaders aren't subjected to the same scrutiny then the media jump on his back and accuse him of being a whinger. Ukip has loons within it, but so do the other main parties: the media's attempts to portray loons as an exclusive Ukip problem isn't working as proven by the polls, the British public know a smear campaign when they see one.

No they accuse him of being hypocritical when he claims that UKIP are different and that UKIP are the same as the rest in the same statements :P also the loons in the other parties don't seem to be the ones making policy

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Oh absolutely, it's been over a year now and I haven't seen any kind of the same scruting applied to Cameron, Miliband or Clegg.

And it's been many decades since mass immigration but we're yet to have collapsed into a pit of violence and despair

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Mass immigration being economically beneficial is debatable, especially considering most immigrants work for very low wages which are under the amount when somebody actually becomes a net positive in terms of taxation to the state.

It certainly isn't good for those on lower wages.
It certainly isn't good for community cohesion and tensions.
It certainly isn't good in terms of crime figures.

Why is it not good for those on lower wages? Presumably because "their" jobs are being "taken" from them ie: capitalism working perfectly and rewarding those who are willing to do the work. What's bad for community cohesion and tensions is political leaders telling the population that anyone from a certain area of the world is something to be feared and suspicious of

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

No, it has nothing to do with race - culture and language can be seperated from race. I don't know if you are aware of this or not - or if you are purposely ignoring it as it doesn't fit into your world view - but we've actually mainly been focusing on mass immigration from Eastern Europe, most of the people of which are white just like me, you and Nigel Farage.

So unless you're accusing Ukip of being Asian/African nationalists with a dislike of white Europeans, you can take a running jump.

It's clear that you don't know what race is and believe it just to be a matter of skin colour - to see it as white vs non-white is itself extremely racist and erasive of cultures such as ... bombombom ... the Romani.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Comments on LBC, the Daily Mail, the Express and the Telegraph are all overwhelmingly on Farage's side.

I suspect it won't be long now until the pro-Tory Daily Mail fix the comment ratings, as they have been doing for weeks now on every single Ukip story.

Again you're only looking at the starter comments and not the replies to them, which are overwhelmingly against Farage. It's like claiming Habbox is a UKIP support site because you start a load of the threads in current affairs and are pro-UKIP, so let's not look at the rest of the content

The story (and part of the interview) was just on the news again, wonderful excerpt showing just how racist he totally isn't -

O'Brien: 'What about the line about not wanting to live next door to Romanians.'
Farage: 'I didn't say that. I was asked, if a group of Romanian men moved in next door to you, would you be concerned.'
O'Brien: 'What about if a group of German children did? What's the difference?'
Farage: 'You know what the difference is … We want an immigration system based on controlling not only quantity but quality as well.'
16-05-2014, 09:40 PM
The Don

Quote:

Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

And it's because Ukip want to discuss mass immigration that you in the media and the cartel call us racist.

How many times do I have to repeat to you that it’s not because Ukip want capped immigration that they’re racist? Explain to me how advertising that Romanians are coming to steal your jobs and making them the center of a hate campaign is anything but racist?

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It doesn't work anymore, don't you get it? For once, you're all going to have to confront open borders - and it terrifies you.

Why would that terrify me? This isn’t a thread about open borders, take that to another thread if you’re itching to discuss it.

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But again you see, you think you are in the majority on this

No, I don’t and I don’t particular care either.

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as do commentators on the Independent and the Guardian but you are in the minority. The vast majority of the public do not agree with open borders, do not want mass immigration

I’m not debating mass immigration here, stop trying to go off subject…

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and do not consider the Ukip posters racist.

Due to that one poll? 40% of the population or whatever number it was thinking a political party is racist is pretty poor. OH BUT IT”S NOT A MAJORITY lmao.

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So whilst you hand wringers are all claiming offence, charges of waycism and all the rest of it: you are talking to yourselves within the metropolitan bubble.

Not really considering a large portion of voters do actually agree with me. It’s obviously not a case of a few people being too sensitive.

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Why do you think Ukip is taking swathes of the working class Labour vote now? Because Labour are totally out of touch. The cartel parties inhabit a world that resembles something in the Guardian/BBC Land - it's just not the real world.

That’s really irrelevant to the discussion and doesn’t respond to my point. If a party wants to target a specific group of people to gain popularity then that’s a party I want no part of.

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But again, any hatred is being directed at the political elite and not immigrants.

It clearly isn’t unless I’ve completely misinterpreted the poster I posted. It’s the immigrants that are being demonized by Ukip.

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Huge swathes of this country are fed up to their back teeth with low paid jobs going to immigrants from Eastern Europe, they're sick of the crime that mass immigration brings and they simply do not want to live in an area that doesn't feel anything like England anymore. Melanie Phillips sums it up perfectly, from 3:20 onwards:

Are you trying to justify Ukips racist campaign?

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Hang on, why shouldn't these two be pointed out?

It is not German and French beggars on the streets of out capital. It is not Belgian and Dutch who are selling big issues. It is not the Danes and Swedes who are coming into this country in the hundreds and thousands and depressing wages for the working class.

Yes, let’s target those bloody Romanians and Bulgarians for even daring to sell the big issue on our streets, that should be reserved for the British only!!!

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No, that's you with your racism bullcrap.

‘I know you are but what am I’

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That is true. But it is also true that the job of the British Government is to look after its subjects, something that allowing hundreds and thousands of cheap workers from Eastern Europeans does not do for the poorest in our society struggling to get work or keep their heads above inflation: the only people that mass immigration benefits are large corporations who love the cheap labour and the politicians and Islington elite who benefits from the cheap nannies, cheap waiters and cheap restaurants.

The problem is, that the rest of us outnumber them.

The 2 Million British Citizens living in the rest of Europe also benefit from open borders but again, I really don’t want to discuss that in this thread, it’s completely off topic.

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Again you keep arguing with emotional rhetoric throwing words like 'hate' or 'racism' about.

It’s kind of hard not to use the word racist in a discussion on whether or not Ukips racist…

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Says the one who keeps calling a party of 37,000+ members racist lmfao.

Is having 37,000 members meant to somehow prove it’s not a racist party? Didn’t the Nazi party in Germany have way more than that? Ridiculous logic.

@FlyingJesus;

Have you seen the other disastrous interview Farage had this week?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YClaK3RDMLc

The actual interview starts at about 4:05
16-05-2014, 11:14 PM
-:Undertaker:-

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Originally Posted by FlyingJesus

No they accuse him of being hypocritical when he claims that UKIP are different and that UKIP are the same as the rest in the same statements :P also the loons in the other parties don't seem to be the ones making policy

I do not think I, Nigel Farage or anybody in Ukip has ever claimed that Ukip is absolutely amazingly perfect. What is clear though is that Ukip is being slurred by the establishment media who support the three cartel parties because they're terrified that for the first time in 100 years, one of their lot isn't going to win a national election.

Even Guardian commentators in the comments state that although they don't support Ukip, the establishment slur media campaign has been so obvious. And indeed, that is why every single time Ukip is slurred rather than debated with properly (fruitcakes, gadflys, loons, clowns, racists) they continue to rise in the polls. The establishment media campaign has failed.

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Originally Posted by FlyingJesus

And it's been many decades since mass immigration but we're yet to have collapsed into a pit of violence and despair

Actually it's been a decade since numbers went to such numbers, and we're seeing increasing social tensions. But don't take it from me or even Ukip, take it from the grade-A morons who opened the floodgates in the first place under the last Labour Government....

Former Home Secretary Jack Straw: http://news.sky.com/story/1167859/st...ration-mistake

Former Home Secretary David Blunkett: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24909979 warning over potential riots because of mass immigration.

Ed Miliband admits Labour got mass immigration wrong: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18539472

Now despite these warnings and apologies, the fact remains that whilst within the European Union our elected government is forbidden from doing anything to respond to public opinion on this. There's a clear public consensus now in favour of controlled immigration yet we're being denied it. Claiming that fears over mass immigration have sprung up all of a sudden is complete and utter nonsense. It's been a fear since the late 1960s - as proven in the Enoch Powell Rivers of Blood speech - and since 1997 it has got wildly out of control.

There is a difference between now and before though, you are right in that - the difference is that any fears over immigration raised by members of the public or politicians can no longer be dismissed and silenced by cries of racism by the establishment, as proven in Ukips high polling figures as well as Immigration overtaking the Economy as the number one concern for the public.

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Originally Posted by FlyingJesus

Why is it not good for those on lower wages? Presumably because "their" jobs are being "taken" from them ie: capitalism working perfectly and rewarding those who are willing to do the work.

So you advocate, in true libertarian style, complete open borders with the world? Yes or no?

You are aware that even Milton Friedman, leading free market economist, dismissed open borders as an idea saying that it is impossible to have whilst having a centralised, welfare state?

And besides, culture & social cohesion>large multinationals making a lot of money.

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Originally Posted by FlyingJesus

What's bad for community cohesion and tensions is political leaders telling the population that anyone from a certain area of the world is something to be feared and suspicious of

Sorry, but people do have things to fear from certain groups coming into the country. A great number of migrant groups have higher crime rates, higher unemployment rates and certain sub groups hold very extreme groups (especially among non-EU migrants) which I have posted polling evidence for in the past but which none of you seemed willing to accept, even if leading politicians now speak openly about the threat of radicalisation amongst migrant groups.

But you keep telling yourself that it isnt a problem in your middle class town.

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Originally Posted by FlyingJesus

It's clear that you don't know what race is and believe it just to be a matter of skin colour - to see it as white vs non-white is itself extremely racist and erasive of cultures such as ... bombombom ... the Romani.

The Romani constitute 3.3% of the Romanian population, we are not talking exclusively about them we are talking about holders of Romanian and Bulgarian national passports who are white and belong roughly to the same ethnic group as you and I.

Again, trying to make something into race when it has jack all to do with race.

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Originally Posted by FlyingJesus

Again you're only looking at the starter comments and not the replies to them, which are overwhelmingly against Farage. It's like claiming Habbox is a UKIP support site because you start a load of the threads in current affairs and are pro-UKIP, so let's not look at the rest of the content

I'm looking at the top rated comments, not the starter comments.

Try again.

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Originally Posted by FlyingJesus

The story (and part of the interview) was just on the news again, wonderful excerpt showing just how racist he totally isn't -

O'Brien: 'What about the line about not wanting to live next door to Romanians.'
Farage: 'I didn't say that. I was asked, if a group of Romanian men moved in next door to you, would you be concerned.'
O'Brien: 'What about if a group of German children did? What's the difference?'
Farage: 'You know what the difference is … We want an immigration system based on controlling not only quantity but quality as well.'

And he's absolutely right seeing as how there has been a Romanian crime wave in London: https://fullfact.org/factchecks/roma..._Britain-28799 and how Romanians are among the nationality groups most likely to be in prison: https://fullfact.org/factchecks/fore...Grayling-28196

And again, Romanian nationals are not a race - they are a nationality.

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Originally Posted by The Don

How many times do I have to repeat to you that it’s not because Ukip want capped immigration that they’re racist? Explain to me how advertising that Romanians are coming to steal your jobs and making them the center of a hate campaign is anything but racist?

It's a fact that they're coming here and taking jobs. Whether the fact is comfortable for you and other hand wringers is not a concern of Ukip, I or the general public: what the general public see is people like you who advocated that we open up the borders to Poland in 2004 saying that only 13,000 a year would come and we ended up with hundreds of thousands. I am afraid that your side has no credibility on this issue what-so-ever, so to turn around and dismiss our valid concerns as waycism or a campaign of hatred is simply all you have to fall back on.

And again, you haven't named the race which the posters target. Spit it out.

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Originally Posted by The Don

Why would that terrify me? This isn’t a thread about open borders, take that to another thread if you’re itching to discuss it.

Because just like you fear a referendum on the EU, you and the political classes simply do not want to discuss these issues. For years now they've been kept silenced by smears and name calling from your side, as you yourself are engaging in rather than debating open borders and our EU membership.

It's all just proven by Farage on Question Time the other night regarding Astra Zeneca, the three other establishment parties were lying to our faces and pretending that the British Government still had democratic control over these decisions when they do not. Only Farage was the one pointing this out, yet all the other panellists could do was jeer and take the piss.

You lot have stolen our democracy and you've stolen our borders. And yet you won't debate it.

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Originally Posted by The Don

No, I don’t and I don’t particular care either.

Ah well excellent, at least you are rooted in some form of reality on this then.

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Originally Posted by The Don

I’m not debating mass immigration here, stop trying to go off subject…

Exactly, because you do not want to debate it. As I keep saying, here are a series of billboards telling the British people as it is - and they agree with them - that our borders are completely open and are now open to Romania and Bulgaria.... and what are the millions of unemployed in Europe looking for right now thanks to your lovely EU's fantastic Euro project? Jobs. Where will they find them? In Britain.

Ukip keep getting proved right just as they were proved right on the Euro currency. Just as they were proved right on the opening of the borders to Poland. Immigration continues to surge.

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Originally Posted by The Don

Due to that one poll? 40% of the population or whatever number it was thinking a political party is racist is pretty poor. OH BUT IT”S NOT A MAJORITY lmao.

It was 20-something % from my recollection, the 40% figure was something like the percentage who believed that Ukip may attract racists - a totally different thing from saying the party is racist. Had similar polls been conducted on other parties like the Tories, similar results would have been found.

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Originally Posted by The Don

Not really considering a large portion of voters do actually agree with me. It’s obviously not a case of a few people being too sensitive.

And we're not after their votes.

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Originally Posted by The Don

That’s really irrelevant to the discussion and doesn’t respond to my point. If a party wants to target a specific group of people to gain popularity then that’s a party I want no part of.

Well i'm sorry if you feel so strongly in defence about Labour and Conservative politicians but personally I am glad that Ukip is targeting those appalling political parties. It's about time that we had some real debate and that those politicians were made to answer for their lies and deceit against the British people.

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Originally Posted by The Don

It clearly isn’t unless I’ve completely misinterpreted the poster I posted. It’s the immigrants that are being demonized by Ukip.

No, it's our insane mass immigration policy that is rightly being demonized by Ukip.

Ukip didn't bring about this situation, you lot did. And now you're going to have to answer for it.

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Originally Posted by The Don

Are you trying to justify Ukips racist campaign?

I have asked like three times now what race the campaign targets, and you haven't yet replied.

Repeating racism like a lobotomised parrot doesn't cut the mustard.

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Originally Posted by The Don

Yes, let’s target those bloody Romanians and Bulgarians for even daring to sell the big issue on our streets, that should be reserved for the British only!!!

Correct, they should not be here. They're a drain on our country and our society.

If they have the skills we need for a job and if they do not have a criminal record, then fine they should be granted work visas. But if they do not have a job and wish to live off the state or sell big issues and live on our streets (which means society has to look after them) then I do not want them here. Ooooooooooooooooh how bigoted of me, but hey that's how the rest of the world does it. I do not want the conditions of the Third World (and the crime that comes with it) brought onto British streets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don

The 2 Million British Citizens living in the rest of Europe also benefit from open borders but again, I really don’t want to discuss that in this thread, it’s completely off topic.

Ah this silly comparison again, you do realise that Great Britain is a country of about 60-something million people and the EU is something like 450m people?

So that 2m EU nationals living here and 2m Britons living in the EU really doesn't equate. That'd be like trying to say that 10m Britons moving to China was the same as 10m Chinese moving to Britain despite there only being 60m Britons and 1.3bn Chinese.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don

It’s kind of hard not to use the word racist in a discussion on whether or not Ukips racist…

Name the race that Ukip is targeting. Do it do it do it do it do it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don

Is having 37,000 members meant to somehow prove it’s not a racist party? Didn’t the Nazi party in Germany have way more than that? Ridiculous logic.

Congratulations for invoking Godwin's Law.

That's how absurd your argument is.
16-05-2014, 11:21 PM
Chippiewill

Quote:

Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Congratulations for invoking Godwin's Law.

That's how absurd your argument is.

Hyperbolic analogies don't make them invalid.
16-05-2014, 11:44 PM
The Don

Quote:

It's a fact that they're coming here and taking jobs. Whether the fact is comfortable for you and other hand wringers is not a concern of Ukip, I or the general public: what the general public see is people like you who advocated that we open up the borders to Poland in 2004 saying that only 13,000 a year would come and we ended up with hundreds of thousands. I am afraid that your side has no credibility on this issue what-so-ever, so to turn around and dismiss our valid concerns as waycism or a campaign of hatred is simply all you have to fall back on.

AGAIN, this is all irrelevant to the actual discussion. You keep writing huge diatribes in the hope that I get caught up in a completely different discussion with you and forget about the original point of this conversation. Could you please stop changing the topic. This hasn’t been a debate about open borders or anything else, it’s all from a comment about Ukip being racist and you asking me to prove it.

Quote:

And again, you haven't named the race which the posters target. Spit it out.

You seem to have this idea that racism is solely about skin colour, which is simply not true and is an outdated idea. When Nigel Farage went to Scotland and was abused by the SNP, he referred to them as being racist to the English. This completely contradicts this idea that a white European can’t be racist against another white European. To answer your question, the example I used was racist towards Romanians. Here’s a source for the snp comment http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-22566183

Quote:

It was 20-something % from my recollection, the 40% figure was something like the percentage who believed that Ukip may attract racists - a totally different thing from saying the party is racist. Had similar polls been conducted on other parties like the Tories, similar results would have been found.

I very much doubt it.

Quote:

Well i'm sorry if you feel so strongly in defence about Labour and Conservative politicians but personally I am glad that Ukip is targeting those appalling political parties. It's about time that we had some real debate and that those politicians were made to answer for their lies and deceit against the British people.

I was referring to the immigrants that Ukip has been demonizing, not politicians.

Quote:

No, it's our insane mass immigration policy that is rightly being demonized by Ukip.

No, it’s the Romanian immigrants that are targeted. “They’re after your jobs” literally pins the blame on them, not the system. Do not try and deny this.

Quote:

I have asked like three times now what race the campaign targets, and you haven't yet replied.

Romanians, and other immigrants from the poorer EU countries.

Quote:

Ah this silly comparison again, you do realise that Great Britain is a country of about 60-something million people and the EU is something like 450m people?

So that 2m EU nationals living here and 2m Britons living in the EU really doesn't equate. That'd be like trying to say that 10m Britons moving to China was the same as 10m Chinese moving to Britain despite there only being 60m Britons and 1.3bn Chinese.

Are those 2 Million Brits not benefiting from open borders? I didn’t say anything else. Are they benefiting from open borders, yes or no?

Quote:

Name the race that Ukip is targeting. Do it do it do it do it do it.

Answered above.

Quote:

Congratulations for invoking Godwin's Law.

That's how absurd your argument is.

It’s still a valid comment and proves how bizarre your 37,000 member comment was.
16-05-2014, 11:56 PM
FlyingJesus

Quote:

Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

I do not think I, Nigel Farage or anybody in Ukip has ever claimed that Ukip is absolutely amazingly perfect. What is clear though is that Ukip is being slurred by the establishment media who support the three cartel parties because they're terrified that for the first time in 100 years, one of their lot isn't going to win a national election.

Even Guardian commentators in the comments state that although they don't support Ukip, the establishment slur media campaign has been so obvious. And indeed, that is why every single time Ukip is slurred rather than debated with properly (fruitcakes, gadflys, loons, clowns, racists) they continue to rise in the polls. The establishment media campaign has failed.

That's lovely but has nothing to do with what I actually said. You'd do well in UKIP, you're good at changing the subject

Quote:

Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Actually it's been a decade since numbers went to such numbers, and we're seeing increasing social tensions. But don't take it from me or even Ukip, take it from the grade-A morons who opened the floodgates in the first place under the last Labour Government....

Former Home Secretary Jack Straw: http://news.sky.com/story/1167859/st...ration-mistake

Former Home Secretary David Blunkett: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24909979 warning over potential riots because of mass immigration.

Ed Miliband admits Labour got mass immigration wrong: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18539472

Now despite these warnings and apologies, the fact remains that whilst within the European Union our elected government is forbidden from doing anything to respond to public opinion on this. There's a clear public consensus now in favour of controlled immigration yet we're being denied it. Claiming that fears over mass immigration have sprung up all of a sudden is complete and utter nonsense. It's been a fear since the late 1960s - as proven in the Enoch Powell Rivers of Blood speech - and since 1997 it has got wildly out of control.

There is a difference between now and before though, you are right in that - the difference is that any fears over immigration raised by members of the public or politicians can no longer be dismissed and silenced by cries of racism by the establishment, as proven in Ukips high polling figures as well as Immigration overtaking the Economy as the number one concern for the public.

And nothing else has happened in that decade to change the way that people live and act at all, it's all to do with immigration. Hmmmm. Straw and Milliband say they were wrong about the numbers, not the impact, and Blunkett is very much talking about the Roma only - oops race rears its head again. You're also equating fear with actuality, and promoting majority view as though it were a magically perfect thesis

Quote:

Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

So you advocate, in true libertarian style, complete open borders with the world? Yes or no?

You are aware that even Milton Friedman, leading free market economist, dismissed open borders as an idea saying that it is impossible to have whilst having a centralised, welfare state?

And besides, culture & social cohesion>large multinationals making a lot of money.

Nope that is not what I said, try responding to my post

Quote:

Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Sorry, but people do have things to fear from certain groups coming into the country. A great number of migrant groups have higher crime rates, higher unemployment rates and certain sub groups hold very extreme groups (especially among non-EU migrants) which I have posted polling evidence for in the past but which none of you seemed willing to accept, even if leading politicians now speak openly about the threat of radicalisation amongst migrant groups.

But you keep telling yourself that it isnt a problem in your middle class town.

Yeah we wouldn't want extremist views in our country would we... and ahhh yes you've previously posted about how a "certain group" called the Roma are going to come over in their droves and cause gang violence. But what's this you say about the Roma?? -

Quote:

Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

The Romani constitute 3.3% of the Romanian population, we are not talking exclusively about them we are talking about holders of Romanian and Bulgarian national passports who are white and belong roughly to the same ethnic group as you and I.

Again, trying to make something into race when it has jack all to do with race.

Whoops.

Quote:

Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

I'm looking at the top rated comments, not the starter comments.

Try again.

You don't seem to understand that a reply to a comment with large support still will not make it go higher; only the starter comments get rated in that way, so you are only looking at the starter comments if you look at the top bit. Never mind, obviously too much for you

Quote:

Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

And he's absolutely right seeing as how there has been a Romanian crime wave in London: https://fullfact.org/factchecks/roma..._Britain-28799 and how Romanians are among the nationality groups most likely to be in prison: https://fullfact.org/factchecks/fore...Grayling-28196

And again, Romanian nationals are not a race - they are a nationality.

From your own link:
http://fullfact.org/sites/fullfact.o...?itok=AqKTSatg
Absolutely minuscule change in the percentage of foreigners as prisoners in the UK, so while the numbers of foreign prisoners is up the number of British criminals has risen even higher. As for Romanians on their own, 0.5% of the prison population in those stats are Romanian, hardly cause to condemn the country and be fearful of all its inhabitants
17-05-2014, 11:28 AM
Ardemax

The Sun calling Farage racist (lol)

http://i.imgur.com/cZkgPoC.jpg

Tables are turning so it seems

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