EU referendum could be held as early as 2016

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Originally Posted by The Don

I was never arguing from a legal standpoint, which is why I pointed out how bad your argument was for being based entirely on technicalities.

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Not really, you and the SNP arguing for a second referendum despite this country not being a confederation is what is dishonest. If the country were a confederation then you'd have a point, but that would mean beforehand consulting the rest of the realm on whether it wanted to transform into a confederacy.

It'd be like arguing that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland should each have a veto/their own say on say signing a United Nations, World Trade Organisation Treaty or war. You'd be de facto transforming the British state into something it is not, and that in itself would require permissions from the rest of the kingdom.

I don't recall being asked by Jimmy Krankie whether I wanted to change the status of the state into a confederation.

How on earth is China's GDP going to DOUBLE in 19 months?

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Not really, you and the SNP arguing for a second referendum despite this country not being a confederation is what is dishonest. If the country were a confederation then you'd have a point, but that would mean beforehand consulting the rest of the realm on whether it wanted to transform into a confederacy.

It'd be like arguing that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland should each have a veto/their own say on say signing a United Nations, World Trade Organisation Treaty or war. You'd be de facto transforming the British state into something it is not, and that in itself would require permissions from the rest of the kingdom.

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Whilst the UK is a country, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are also countries in their own right. An EU referendum will be almost entirely decided by the English as we massively outweigh the rest of the countries in the union. Leaving the EU will have a big impact on all of the UK and not just England so morally each of the countries should decide for themselves, not just England.

Morally (not legally before you start banging on about how the EU isn't a country) that's like us holding a referendum to leave the EU and France, Germany, Spain, Croatia and the other 23 countries getting to vote on it as well.

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Originally Posted by The Don

Whilst the UK is a country, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are also countries in their own right. An EU referendum will be almost entirely decided by the English as we massively outweigh the rest of the countries in the union. Leaving the EU will have a big impact on all of the UK and not just England so morally each of the countries should decide for themselves, not just England.

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Then you are proposing a confederation there.

Whilst we're a unitary state and not a confederation then that argument doesn't stand. Unprecedented.

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Originally Posted by The Don

Morally (not legally before you start banging on about how the EU isn't a country) that's like us holding a referendum to leave the EU and France, Germany, Spain, Croatia and the other 23 countries getting to vote on it as well.

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Not at all, the United Kingdom has a historic unified demos whereas the example you give doesn't.

It is true that the demos is questioned by the likes of wee Jimmy Krankie, but the majority have asserted it exists and thus it does.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Then you are proposing a confederation there.

Whilst we're a unitary state and not a confederation then that argument doesn't stand. Unprecedented.



Not at all, the United Kingdom has a historic unified demos whereas the example you give doesn't.

It is true that the demos is questioned by the likes of wee Jimmy Krankie, but the majority have asserted it exists and thus it does.

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Again, you've intentionally ignored the point of fairness and are sidetracking. One country shouldn't get to decide for the other three. Each of the countries in the UK have distinct enough cultures separate from ours that they have differing views on pivotal issues (such as the EU and how the English are more sceptical towards it) as shown by the voting patterns of up north compared to down south. Had the conservatives promised a referendum during the Scottish referendum then the vote could have taken a completely different turn.

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Originally Posted by The Don

I wouldn't want to see the UK split up, but if the UK votes to leave the EU then Scotland deserve to have a fair say in the matter, not one that's watered down by the 50 million people living in England.

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They have a right to a decision. Every person in Scotland gets their say like every person in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Stop treating England as if it's some giant hive mind which dictates what the rest of the UK does when that's simply not the case.

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Originally Posted by The Don

Again, you've intentionally ignored the point of fairness and are sidetracking. One country shouldn't get to decide for the other three. Each of the countries in the UK have distinct enough cultures separate from ours that they have differing views on pivotal issues (such as the EU and how the English are more sceptical towards it) as shown by the voting patterns of up north compared to down south.

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Then you don't understand the very constitutional nature of the state you live in. Scotland, Wales, England and Northern Ireland have no seperate say on any international matter in this country as the only real country (sovereign state in the proper sense) is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

If you want to turn this into a confederation, then sure go ahead and argue for it. But I want a say on it before you and Jimmy do.

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Originally Posted by The Don

Had the conservatives promised a referendum during the Scottish referendums then the vote could have taken a completely different turn.

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He did. At the start of 2013.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21148282

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Originally Posted by dbgtz

They have a right to a decision. Every person in Scotland gets their say like every person in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Stop treating England as if it's some giant hive mind which dictates what the rest of the UK does when that's simply not the case.

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Ah yes, because we all share the same ideas and values! /s

If 70% of people from Scotland voted to remain within the EU but overall the UK voted to leave, would that be fair for the people of Scotland? They as a majority would have voted to remain within, but because they make up such a tiny percentage of the UK's population their vote would be ignored.

Hilarious that the people complaining about the FPTP system as being unfair because the majority are ignored are quite happy to do the same when they are part of the deciding minority.

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Originally Posted by The Don

Ah yes, because we all share the same ideas and values! /s

If 70% of people from Scotland voted to remain within the EU but overall the UK voted to leave, would that be fair for the people of Scotland? They as a majority would have voted to remain within, but because they make up such a tiny percentage of the UK's population their vote would be ignored.

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What about if Yorkshire and Lancashire voted to stay, but Kent and Essex voted to leave? Or north/south for a more simplified example.

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Originally Posted by The Don

Hilarious that the people complaining about the FPTP system as being unfair because the majority are ignored are quite happy to do the same when they are part of the deciding minority. @-:Undertaker:-; @dbgtz;

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I have defended FPTP, not complained about it.

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Originally Posted by conservative

How on earth is China's GDP going to DOUBLE in 19 months?

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Can someone answer my question relating to the graph at the start of this thread??