The BNP - Good or Bad?

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

It may be considered an insult by those people, but why do you not understand that that is freedom of speech?

If somebody bans a historical opinion because they do not agree with it, that is dictorial, its not democratic and its not what we fought Adolf Hitler for.

..with replies like these, it really make me wonder why we even bothered.

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Because it may well be someones opinion, and you may consider it ok that he denies the murder of millions of people, but with the rest of us it does not sit right. He and the other waste of spaces who think that its ok to deny the holocaust hide behind the fact that its their *right* to say these things, it does not make it so. You can't have an opinion on something that is a proven fact. Infact wait you can, but it's simply wrong. There are many things you are not allowed to say in this country, there are restrictions on it for the wellbeing of those that it can hurt. You aren't allowed to say racist things to someone, you aren't allowed to say homophobic things, you aren't allowed to say threats to someone. These restrictions exist in Britain which is a democratic society.

Oh and you haven't even addressed the other things I have commented on, would you care to do so?

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Originally Posted by Tash.

Because it may well be someones opinion, and you may consider it ok that he denies the murder of millions of people, but with the rest of us it does not sit right. He and the other waste of spaces who think that its ok to deny the holocaust hide behind the fact that its their *right* to say these things, it does not make it so. You can't have an opinion on something that is a proven fact. Infact wait you can, but it's simply wrong. There are many things you are not allowed to say in this country, there are restrictions on it for the wellbeing of those that it can hurt. You aren't allowed to say racist things to someone, you aren't allowed to say homophobic things, you aren't allowed to say threats to someone. These restrictions exist in Britain which is a democratic society.

Oh and you haven't even addressed the other things I have commented on, would you care to do so?

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Man your english is better than I thought.

And how people say BNP aren't racist surprises me. You cannot be a member (I think you cant) if you aren't white.
How is that not racist?

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Originally Posted by SauravG

Man your english is better than I thought.

And how people say BNP aren't racist surprises me. You cannot be a member (I think you cant) if you aren't white.
How is that not racist?

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I'll say it before someone who are defending the BNP does.. soon you will be able to. This is not due to the BNP members wanting this to be allowed, but because they are being forced to by the EU. The BNP will remain a racist party even when non-white people are allowed to join.

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Originally Posted by Tash.

I'll say it before someone who are defending the BNP does.. soon you will be able to. This is not due to the BNP members wanting this to be allowed, but because they are being forced to by the EU. The BNP will remain a racist party even when non-white people are allowed to join.

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The fact that they will be allowed to join soon means nothing. The fact that non-white people were denied membership in the first place clearly shows they were and are and will always be racist.

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Originally Posted by SauravG

The fact that they will be allowed to join soon means nothing. The fact that non-white people were denied membership in the first place clearly shows they were and are and will always be racist.

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Yeah exactly. I, like you, fail to see how you can argue that the BNP are anything but racist.

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Originally Posted by Tash.

Because it may well be someones opinion, and you may consider it ok that he denies the murder of millions of people, but with the rest of us it does not sit right. He and the other waste of spaces who think that its ok to deny the holocaust hide behind the fact that its their *right* to say these things, it does not make it so. You can't have an opinion on something that is a proven fact. Infact wait you can, but it's simply wrong. There are many things you are not allowed to say in this country, there are restrictions on it for the wellbeing of those that it can hurt. You aren't allowed to say racist things to someone, you aren't allowed to say homophobic things, you aren't allowed to say threats to someone. These restrictions exist in Britain which is a democratic society.

Oh and you haven't even addressed the other things I have commented on, would you care to do so?

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No it does sit right, it has never sat right with the left because freedom of thought has never sat right with the left, just like with the European Union - it cannot stand the word no or the people having a say. You need to accept that some people have different (and sometimes crazy) opinions compared to yours and mine, however that doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to speak them or think them.

People say global warming is a fact, so would I be locked up for my belief that global warming is a big con just because you/the ruling elite don't agree with me?

On the case of the BNP, while I don't think anything should be based on colour, we do we allowed organisations such as the Black Police Officers Association to exist? - you can't have it both ways, and people are now realising how one-sided this whole situation is.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

No it does sit right, it has never sat right with the left because freedom of thought has never sat right with the left, just like with the European Union - it cannot stand the word no or the people having a say. You need to accept that some people have different (and sometimes crazy) opinions compared to yours and mine, however that doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to speak them or think them.

People say global warming is a fact, so would I be locked up for my belief that global warming is a big con just because you/the ruling elite don't agree with me?

On the case of the BNP, while I don't think anything should be based on colour, we do we allowed organisations such as the Black Police Officers Association to exist? - you can't have it both ways, and people are now realising how one-sided this whole situation is.

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I just cannot see how you're still fighting for people to be allowed extreme or in your words 'sometimes crazy' thoughts and be allowed to voice them. You can correct me if i'm wrong, but this means you think that muslim extremists should be allowed to spread their form of hatred? If thats your opinion then i'd count yourself among the crazies because thats not an opinion, its dangerous.

No you wouldn't but I don't see how the belief that global warming doesn't exist and the belief that the holocaust didn't happen are comparable? If you don't believe in global warming then fair enough, you're not hurting anyones feelings here, you aren't denying the facts of how millions of people died. If you deny the holocaust then you are.

And i'm sure that if I did research into your example here, the Black Police Officers Association, I would find that they do not spread hatred of white policemen, nor do they think that they should not be allowed in the police force. Infact having just done a brief look on google, I have found that they are an organisation that provides support to the black members of the police force and aims to promote racial harmony. If you're seriously telling me that the BNP are an organisation that promotes racial harmony then I don't think I need to debate with you anymore.

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I just cannot see how you're still fighting for people to be allowed extreme or in your words 'sometimes crazy' thoughts and be allowed to voice them. You can correct me if i'm wrong, but this means you think that muslim extremists should be allowed to spread their form of hatred? If thats your opinion then i'd count yourself among the crazies because thats not an opinion, its dangerous.

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That is otherwise known as democracy, and yes the muslin extremists can say 9/11 was a conspiracy if they wish, as long as they are not spreading hatred. Denying the holocaust is not hatred.

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No you wouldn't but I don't see how the belief that global warming doesn't exist and the belief that the holocaust didn't happen are comparable? If you don't believe in global warming then fair enough, you're not hurting anyones feelings here, you aren't denying the facts of how millions of people died. If you deny the holocaust then you are.

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..so what, are you asking us to live in a world in which we can't say what we feel because it could hurt peoples feelings? - bring out the cotton wool..

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And i'm sure that if I did research into your example here, the Black Police Officers Association, I would find that they do not spread hatred of white policemen, nor do they think that they should not be allowed in the police force. Infact having just done a brief look on google, I have found that they are an organisation that provides support to the black members of the police force and aims to promote racial harmony. If you're seriously telling me that the BNP are an organisation that promotes racial harmony then I don't think I need to debate with you anymore.

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I am not debating that, I am saying that if the BNP isn't allowed to be an organisation for white people then neither should the Black Police Officers Association be allowed to be an organisation for black people. I would prefer no racial groups at all, but while the state does it then the BNP have every right to also do it.

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Originally Posted by Tash.

Yeah exactly. I, like you, fail to see how you can argue that the BNP are anything but racist.

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India would not tolerate millions of non-Indians taking over that society. Pakistan would not tolerate millions of Hindus or Christians entering that country and changing it from a Muslim society into something else. Japan would not do it; China would not do it so why should Britain?

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What people do not understand (and I speak from personal experience here), non-british people are not taking over the society in Britain. There is still a majority white people here and always will be.

http://i46.tinypic.com/nh0x7o.jpg

Another thing is, most non-british treat white people with respect. I have lived in India for 10 years and have been several times since I moved out, and every time I went to tourist attractions, a majority of the white people (no idea if they were British or not), treated people with such disrespect its unbelievable.

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Originally Posted by SauravG

What people do not understand (and I speak from personal experience here), non-british people are not taking over the society in Britain. There is still a majority white people here and always will be.

http://i46.tinypic.com/nh0x7o.jpg

Another thing is, most non-british treat white people with respect. I have lived in India for 10 years and have been several times since I moved out, and every time I went to tourist attractions, a majority of the white people (no idea if they were British or not), treated people with such disrespect its unbelievable.

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..people don't have a problem with black/brown/yellow or whatever colour or nationality people are from, we do however have a problem with the uncontrolled immigration that our government is allowing in which to put it frank, scum (criminals, benefit cheats), are moving to this country.

I do dislike people who come here from other countries, raise 10 children just to get benefits, work and pretend they aren't and so do most Asians here.
But that is not what this debate is about.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

it isn't freedom of speech if its restricted!

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It is in a modern society. There are always going to be restrictions of freedom of speech. There are in every country in the world. Essentially you are saying people should have the right to be racist and homophobic aren't you?

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Originally Posted by FlyDuo

It is in a modern society. There are always going to be restrictions of freedom of speech. There are in every country in the world. Essentially you are saying people should have the right to be racist and homophobic aren't you?

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There is a big difference between denial of a historical event and homophobia/racism.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

That is otherwise known as democracy, and yes the muslin extremists can say 9/11 was a conspiracy if they wish, as long as they are not spreading hatred. Denying the holocaust is not hatred.

..so what, are you asking us to live in a world in which we can't say what we feel because it could hurt peoples feelings? - bring out the cotton wool..

I am not debating that, I am saying that if the BNP isn't allowed to be an organisation for white people then neither should the Black Police Officers Association be allowed to be an organisation for black people. I would prefer no racial groups at all, but while the state does it then the BNP have every right to also do it.

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I myself am an advocate for freedom of speech, I wanted Nick Griffin to be allowed to clarify himself on Question time. However, as I have said before, the law has put restrictions on freedom of speech and I think that denying the holocaust is just one of these things that should not be accepted as being allowed. I wasn't actually referring to the 9/11 conspiracies, I was referring to the muslim extremists who keep finding ways through 'freedom of speech' to say that the western world is evil and that it should be wiped off the earth or be put under sharia law. That is their opinion and in your world of freedom of speech on anything and everything, they'd be allowed to spout this nonsense.

No i'm not saying that, i'm merely saying that you cannot deny a fact. You'd have to be a pretty heartless person to think that its ok for someone to deny millions of people died in gas chambers just because its their opinion. I'm not saying wrap everyone in cotton wool, I for one do not care what Nick Griffins opinion is on anything, he's a vile excuse for a human being, but my morals tell me that we shouldn't sit back and allow him to deny such a heinous crime existed.

The BNP aren't just an organisation for white people though. They are aiming to enhance the lives of white people at the detriment of people they deem to not be worthy. The Black Police Officers Association promotes harmony, the BNP clearly do not, they promote hatred there is a stark difference.

Edit-

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Originally Posted by SauravG

What people do not understand (and I speak from personal experience here), non-british people are not taking over the society in Britain. There is still a majority white people here and always will be.

http://i46.tinypic.com/nh0x7o.jpg

Another thing is, most non-british treat white people with respect. I have lived in India for 10 years and have been several times since I moved out, and every time I went to tourist attractions, a majority of the white people (no idea if they were British or not), treated people with such disrespect its unbelievable.

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Exactly, the BNP set out to scare monger people into believing that they are going to be wiped out or something. It's just not true.

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Originally Posted by Tash.

I myself am an advocate for freedom of speech, I wanted Nick Griffin to be allowed to clarify himself on Question time. However, as I have said before, the law has put restrictions on freedom of speech and I think that denying the holocaust is just one of these things that should not be accepted as being allowed. I wasn't actually referring to the 9/11 conspiracies, I was referring to the muslim extremists who keep finding ways through 'freedom of speech' to say that the western world is evil and that it should be wiped off the earth or be put under sharia law. That is their opinion and in your world of freedom of speech on anything and everything, they'd be allowed to spout this nonsense.

No i'm not saying that, i'm merely saying that you cannot deny a fact. You'd have to be a pretty heartless person to think that its ok for someone to deny millions of people died in gas chambers just because its their opinion. I'm not saying wrap everyone in cotton wool, I for one do not care what Nick Griffins opinion is on anything, he's a vile excuse for a human being, but my morals tell me that we shouldn't sit back and allow him to deny such a heinous crime existed.

The BNP aren't just an organisation for white people though. They are aiming to enhance the lives of white people at the detriment of people they deem to not be worthy. The Black Police Officers Association promotes harmony, the BNP clearly do not, they promote hatred there is a stark difference.

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You can deny a fact when you don't believe its a fact.

Do not say you support freedom of speech when you are calling for somebodys opinion on a historical event to be made illegal, because thats would be like me saying my username is blue.

If freedom of speech is allowed without limits, then I should be able to go around supporting terrorists without being arrested. I should be allowed to go around saying how great I think the bombings in London were without being arrested or anything.

No. No one would tolerate it and they shouldn't.

(knowing what people on here are like, no I do not believe in anything I said in my first paragraph).

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

..people don't have a problem with black/brown/yellow or whatever colour or nationality people are from, we do however have a problem with the uncontrolled immigration that our government is allowing in which to put it frank, scum (criminals, benefit cheats), are moving to this country.

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What are you talking about? The majority of people who cheat the benefit system are actually impoverished lower class brits who are not immigrants. You see it all the time.. how can you argue that just because someone is coming into the country right now they must be here to commit a crime or to scam the benefit system?

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

You can deny a fact when you don't believe its a fact.

Do not say you support freedom of speech when you are calling for somebodys opinion on a historical event to be made illegal, because thats would be like me saying my username is blue.

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I can say that, I do advocate freedom of speech, do not tell me what I do, you don't know me. Again you are making a comparison between two things that are not related. Saying your username is blue will not deny the deaths of millions of people now will it? Please use your brain when trying to do a comparison.

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Originally Posted by SauravG

If freedom of speech is allowed without limits, then I should be able to go around supporting terrorists without being arrested. I should be allowed to go around saying how great I think the bombings in London were without being arrested or anything.

No. No one would tolerate it and they shouldn't.

(knowing what people on here are like, no I do not believe in anything I said in my first paragraph).

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This is exactly what i was trying to point out, there are restrictions on freedom of speech in our democracy and they are there to protect public safety.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

..people don't have a problem with black/brown/yellow or whatever colour or nationality people are from, we do however have a problem with the uncontrolled immigration that our government is allowing in which to put it frank, scum (criminals, benefit cheats), are moving to this country.

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Also I just love how people think non-british are just here to steal benefits. They obviously don't create any jobs. Nope. :rolleyes:

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What are you talking about? The majority of people who cheat the benefit system are actually impoverished lower class brits who are not immigrants. You see it all the time.. how can you argue that just because someone is coming into the country right now they must be here to commit a crime or to scam the benefit system?

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I did not say that, I said that those who do - they are the people we have a problem with, the people who we do not want.

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I can say that, I do advocate freedom of speech, do not tell me what I do, you don't know me. Again you are making a comparison between to things that are not related. Saying your username is blue will not deny the deaths of millions of people now will it? Please use your brain when trying to do a comparison.

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I do know you, you are prepared to make somebodies opinion on a historical event illegal, therefore you do not value free speech, or should I say, you do, as long as it falls into line with your opinion.

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This is exactly what i was trying to point out, there are restrictions on freedom of speech in our democracy and they are there to protect public safety.

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Denial of a historical event and homophobia/racism are two totally different things.

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Also I just love how people think non-british are just here to steal benefits. They obviously don't create any jobs. Nope. :rolleyes:

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Where and when have I ever said i'm against immigration?

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

There is a big difference between denial of a historical event and homophobia/racism.

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No there isn't, not in terms of freedom of speech. You say freedom of speech isnt freedom unless its limitless when it never should be limitless because of homophobia and racism. Denying the holocaust is just as bad as racism or homophobia, like them it directly offends people (The relatives of the murdered) and disrespects the dead. Why should 6 million murdered people be allowed to be denied when its proven in absolute fact? Global warming isn't proven in fact, neither is the big bang, feel free to deny those all you want, it isn't ruining anyones lives so thats fine.

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Originally Posted by FlyDuo

No there isn't, not in terms of freedom of speech. You say freedom of speech isnt freedom unless its limitless when it never should be limitless because of homophobia and racism. Denying the holocaust is just as bad as racism or homophobia, like them it directly offends people (The relatives of the murdered) and disrespects the dead. Why should 6 million murdered people be allowed to be denied when its proven in absolute fact? Global warming isn't proven in fact, neither is the big bang, feel free to deny those all you want, it isn't ruining anyones lives so thats fine.

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..because freedom of speech allows people to dispute the facts, thats a democracy.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

I did not say that, I said that those who do - they are the people we have a problem with, the people who we do not want.

I do know you, you are prepared to make somebodies opinion on a historical event illegal, therefore you do not value free speech, or should I say, you do, as long as it falls into line with your opinion.

Denial of a historical event and homophobia/racism are two totally different things.



Where and when have I ever said i'm against immigration?

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I like how you ignore all my arguments against you. Is it because you know I am right and are unable to argue against it?

One more example, I am sure you wouldn't mind as you are in full support of freedom of speech being limitless. If I go around, rally up 1000 people, go to your street and go I HATE WHITE PEOPLE. I HATE UNDERTAKER (whatever your real name is). I HATE HIS FAMILY. I HATE WHITE PEOPLE.
I am sure you won't mind :) or call the police. Why should you? Its freedom of speech. I can say what I want :).

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Originally Posted by SauravG

I like how you ignore all my arguments against you. Is it because you know I am right and are unable to argue against it?

One more example, I am sure you wouldn't mind as you are in full support of freedom of speech being limitless. If I go around, rally up 1000 people, go to your street and go I HATE WHITE PEOPLE. I HATE UNDERTAKER (whatever your real name is). I HATE HIS FAMILY. I HATE WHITE PEOPLE.
I am sure you won't mind :) or call the police. Why should you? Its freedom of speech. I can say what I want :).

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Nick Griffin has not said he hates the holocaust victims, as I said before, there is a difference between hatred and denial of a historical event.

It is you who cannot seem to answer this simple fact - I have not ignored any of your argument, I have picked out the points and gone on and on about how an opinion on a historical event is totally different from homophobia/racism, yet you continue to ignore this and say how I apparently said all non-British people are layabouts when I never.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

I did not say that, I said that those who do - they are the people we have a problem with, the people who we do not want.

I do know you, you are prepared to make somebodies opinion on a historical event illegal, therefore you do not value free speech, or should I say, you do, as long as it falls into line with your opinion.

Denial of a historical event and homophobia/racism are two totally different things.



Where and when have I ever said i'm against immigration?

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But do you not realise that because you don't know the statistics, the number of people who enter this country legally and go on to scam the benefits system or commit crimes, may well be a small minority of people? As I myself do not know the statistics I can't comment but it just seems ignorant to presume that immigrants are the problem.

You don't know me at all. I haven't said anywhere I want it to be illegal, I actually said I think its morally wrong for him to be allowed to deny it. You'd be hard pushed to find many people who think that it's ok for him to have this opinion. Its freedom of speech being exploited, it wasn't designed for this.

And no, they are not. Both hurt peoples feelings, both are being used to discriminate.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Nick Griffin has not said he hates the holocaust victims, as I said before, there is a difference between hatred and denial of a historical event.

It is you who cannot seem to answer this simple fact.

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No, I am clearly showing why Freedom of Speech should never be limitless. It is you who fails to see this. Answer me, would you care if I did what I said in my above post? If the answer is yes (which it undoubtedly will be), then your whole argument is flawed.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

..because freedom of speech allows people to dispute the facts, thats a democracy.

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So should I be allowed to dispute that "Homosexuals are inferior to Heterosexuals in ever way?" or "Black people are stupid?". No. Because its proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they aren't. But hey, you know what, we should because thats a democracy.

In a democracy people should vote on what should be allowed or not allowed. I think you'll find that the vast majority of the British population would be for banning holocaust denial. However no sensible party would ban that from fear of criticism from the right that they were "breaking freedom of speech" which would severely damage the parties reputation.

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Originally Posted by Tash.

But do you not realise that because you don't know the statistics, the number of people who enter this country legally and go on to scam the benefits system or commit crimes, may well be a small minority of people? As I myself do not know the statistics I can't comment but it just seems ignorant to presume that immigrants are the problem.

You don't know me at all. I haven't said anywhere I want it to be illegal, I actually said I think its morally wrong for him to be allowed to deny it. You'd be hard pushed to find many people who think that it's ok for him to have this opinion. Its freedom of speech being exploited, it wasn't designed for this.

And no, they are not. Both hurt peoples feelings, both are being used to discriminate.

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We do not know the statistics because this government has not got any because it has no control over these borders. That is how bad the situation has got under this Labour government.

Ok then, which is it; should historial event denial be illegal?

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Originally Posted by SauravG

No, I am clearly showing why Freedom of Speech should never be limitless. It is you who fails to see this. Answer me, would you care if I did what I said in my above post? If the answer is yes (which it undoubtedly will be), then your whole argument is flawed.

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No I would frankly not care, I do not know you and you do not know me. This is a Habbo forum with teenagers on, and if you are going to get upset on a Habbo forum then you really are going to struggle in life aren't you.

Now, reply to what I said on the difference between denial of a historical event and homophobia/racism.

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So should I be allowed to dispute that "Homosexuals are inferior to Heterosexuals in ever way?" or "Black people are stupid?". No. Because its proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they aren't. But hey, you know what, we should because thats a democracy.

In a democracy people should vote on what should be allowed or not allowed. I think you'll find that the vast majority of the British population would be for banning holocaust denial. However no sensible party would ban that from fear of criticism from the right that they were "breaking freedom of speech" which would severely damage the parties reputation.

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That is outright hatred, denial of the holocaust is nothing like the examples you have given.

Heyyyy! The Earth is square. Gordon Brown isnt really the prime minister of this country, I am. I am going to go to undertaker and deny any bad things which have happened in his life. If there is a funeral of his family member, I am going to go and laugh and laugh some more and deny every good thing that the person did.

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Ok the example above is extreme (and obviously I would never do such a thing), but it is exactly what Nick Griffin is doing by denying the holocaust.

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Originally Posted by SauravG

Heyyyy! The Earth is square. Gordon Brown isnt really the prime minister of this country, I am. I am going to go to undertaker and deny any bad things which have happened in his life. If there is a funeral of his family member, I am going to go and laugh and laugh some more and deny every good thing that the person did.

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Ok the example above is extreme (and obviously I would never do such a thing), but it is exactly what Nick Griffin is doing by denying the holocaust.

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Denial of a historical event is nothing like the examples you have given.

Reply to what I asked you to reply to.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

We do not know the statistics because this government has not got any because it has no control over these borders. That is how bad the situation has got under this Labour government.

Ok then, which is it; should historial event denial be illegal?



No I would frankly not care, I do not know you and you do not know me. This is a Habbo forum with teenagers on, and if you are going to get upset on a Habbo forum then you really are going to struggle in life aren't you.

Now, reply to what I said on the difference between denial of a historical event and homophobia/racism.

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I'm pretty confident those statistics do exist, the situation is not as bad as you think and the government have not created it all. Immigration within the EU is not controlled by them, they have no say in it.

No, I don't think it should be illegal. I think it's morally unnacceptable. As I said before, Nick Griffin is inconsequential to me, his opinions mean zilch to me.

And seen as though you seem to think you can cast aspertions on my character, I shall on yours. If you're seriously saying you wouldn't care if someone targeted you and your family like that you're a liar.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

No I would frankly not care, I do not know you and you do not know me. This is a Habbo forum with teenagers on, and if you are going to get upset on a Habbo forum then you really are going to struggle in life aren't you.

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Where does the question of me getting upset come from? And frankly, I am not a teenager and neither are some others who have replied, please do not make a statement without knowing the facts.
And you say you wont care, but I am sure you will and so will your family. Anyone, who has 1000 people outside their house shouting hatred comments will care. Anyone who says they wont are liars and that's the fact.

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I'm pretty confident those statistics do exist, the situation is not as bad as you think and the government have not created it all. Immigration within the EU is not controlled by them, they have no say in it.

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That is why I support leaving the European Union.

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No, I don't think it should be illegal. I think it's morally unnacceptable. As I said before, Nick Griffin is inconsequential to me, his opinions mean zilch to me.

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..then we agree, so whats the problem?

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And seen as though you seem to think you can cast aspertions on my character, I shall on yours. If you're seriously saying you wouldn't care if someone targeted you and your family like that you're a liar.

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The example of somebody saying stuff to me on a forum was given, I would not care if it was on this forum. So no, i'm not a liar. You however have a knack for twisting my words into something they are not.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Denial of a historical event is nothing like the examples you have given.

Reply to what I asked you to reply to.

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I have replied, but again you fail to see it.
I will say this again in the hope you do not ignore it yet again, your argument is that freedom of speech should be limitless. I have showed you clearly why it shouldn't be.
The denial of historical event debate is continuing as you believe the freedom of speech should be limitless. I disagree.

And actually denial of a historical event such as the holocaust is very much like the extreme example I gave and I explained in that post very clearly why it is.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

That is why I support leaving the European Union.



..then we agree, so whats the problem?



The example of somebody saying stuff to me on a forum was given, I would not care if it was on this forum. So no, i'm not a liar. You however have a knack for twisting my words into something they are not.

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I'm not getting into a debate with you over the EU but lets just say our opinions on that point differ too.

And no we do not agree, I would never argue that he should be ok to say those things. You seem to be arguing otherwise.

And no he didn't mean on the forum, he was saying in real life if someone came into your street spouting lies and hatred about you and your loved ones would you care? Everybody would, it's in human nature to defend what they love. I haven't twisted anything you've said actually, you did that all by yourself.

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Originally Posted by SauravG

Where does the question of me getting upset come from? And frankly, I am not a teenager and neither are some others who have replied, please do not make a statement without knowing the facts.
And you say you wont care, but I am sure you will and so will your family. Anyone, who has 1000 people outside their house shouting hatred comments will care. Anyone who says they wont are liars and that's the fact.

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This forum is aimed at teenagers, thats why the generalisation that this forum is for teenagers is just basic common sense.

Nick Griffin is not shouting outside the relatives of holocaust victims houses hatred.

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Originally Posted by SauravG

I have replied, but again you fail to see it.
I will say this again in the hope you do not ignore it yet again, your argument is that freedom of speech should be limitless. I have showed you clearly why it shouldn't be.
The denial of historical event debate is continuing as you believe the freedom of speech should be limitless. I disagree.

And actually denial of a historical event such as the holocaust is very much like the extreme example I gave and I explained in that post very clearly why it is.

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I have not said it should be limitless, I am merely saying that denial of the holocaust should be allowed as that is not hatred whereas racism and homophobia are.

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And no we do not agree, I would never argue that he should be ok to say those things. You seem to be arguing otherwise.

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..so wait, are you now saying they should be illegal? :S

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And no he didn't mean on the forum, he was saying in real life if someone came into your street spouting lies and hatred about you and your loved ones would you care? Everybody would, it's in human nature to defend what they love. I haven't twisted anything you've said actually, you did that all by yourself.

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In real life I would care yes, however Nick Griffin is not on the streets shouting at the relatives of holocaust victims is he.

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Originally Posted by Tash.

IAnd no he didn't mean on the forum, he was saying in real life if someone came into your street spouting lies and hatred about you and your loved ones would you care? Everybody would, it's in human nature to defend what they love. I haven't twisted anything you've said actually, you did that all by yourself.

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I thought I clearly wrote on his street. There are no "streets" on a forum so it is common sense to assume I meant in real life. How he failed to see it is beyond me. Like I said, he ignores half of what I say as he knows I am right and he is unable to prove me wrong.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

This forum is aimed at teenagers, thats why the generalisation that this forum is for teenagers is just basic common sense.

Nick Griffin is not shouting outside the relatives of holocaust victims houses hatred.



I have not said it should be limitless, I am merely saying that denial of the holocaust should be allowed as that is not hatred whereas racism and homophobia are.

..so wait, are you now saying they should be illegal?

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Maybe not deliberately no, but he was actually in court a few weeks ago trying to get an asian man convicted of racial hatred against him. This is despite the fact Nick Griffin was at the time stood doing a demonstration in Bradford for the BNP. To me if you're going to do that you're asking for anything you get.

No, i'm going to say this once more, because saying it anymore would be waste of my time because it doesn't appear to be getting through. I believe it is morally unacceptable for him to say these things. I would never argue that he should say these things and I would never encourage anyone to say such things. I don't want it to be outlawed, and I don't want it to result in a prison sentence or any other punishment apart from a public rebute.

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Originally Posted by Tash.

Maybe not deliberately no, but he was actually in court a few weeks ago trying to get an asian man convicted of racial hatred against him. This is despite the fact Nick Griffin was at the time stood doing a demonstration in Bradford for the BNP. To me if you're going to do that you're asking for anything you get.

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Nick Griffin was not being racist/homophobic at that demonstration as no charges were brought against him, so i'll ask again; is Nick Griffin standing outside peoples' houses shouting the holocaust didn't happen?

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

This forum is aimed at teenagers, thats why the generalisation that this forum is for teenagers is just basic common sense.

Nick Griffin is not shouting outside the relatives of holocaust victims houses hatred.

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Its aimed at teenagers, but many members who join in 2004-2005 aren't now. There are more females in this country than males, I am going to assume you are a female and so is everyone I see on the street.

And he is not shouting directly outside their houses, but he says it on the TV and that is being shown on most TV's in this country, so indirectly he is.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

That is outright hatred, denial of the holocaust is nothing like the examples you have given.

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Even though its not direct and as obvious hatred as racism or homophobia its still going to effect people in the same way is it not? Many older people talk of how they saw their families murdered by the Nazis and their skulls crushed, what gives ANYONE the right to bring this back up and torment them with it saying it never happened.

You know after camps were liberated they took people from the local villages down to view the bodies. It is impossible to say it never happened when there are hundreds of thousands of people who have seen the atrocities first hand and even some who committed it.