EU bans crucifixes in Italian classrooms

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

..as I posted earlier on, here is how they are linked.

The European Court of Human Rights was established under the European Convention of Human Rights, that in turn is adopted by the Council of Europe which in turn works with the European Union on joint-projects and both are working towards European integration.

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Which is a very weak link. That's like saying the UK is the same as the group who signed up for the Geneva Convention because we signed up for the Geneva Convention and we work with them on certain projects.

it's like this (i've literally made up this analogy): Alot of Milk is produced (this represents the CoE) and some of this milk is used to make Cheese (The EU). The EU is a harder, more matured version of the European Council as it makes alot more decisions in different sectors. However, calling the Cheese milk, isn't correct because they aren't the same thing as many people consume milk without cheese whilst some consume the two. It isn't possible to consume cheese without milk (as one makes the other) but they are not the same thing. Milk does not mix with cheese well because because they have different properties, ie, one is a solid substance to be used to eat and one is to drink.

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On the federal europe issue, you support the march towards a federal europe yet don't support the people of Europe having a referendum on it?

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I support representative democracy. Referendums is a poor form of democracy. If they do not support the views of thier elected representatives then they should not vote them in.

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Originally Posted by alexxxxx

Which is a very weak link. That's like saying the UK is the same as the UN because we signed up for the Geneva Convention and we work with them on certain projects.

it's like this (i've literally made up this analogy): Alot of Milk is produced (this represents the CoE) and some of this milk is used to make Cheese (The EU). The EU is a harder, more matured version of the European Council as it makes alot more decisions in different sectors. However, calling the Cheese milk, isn't correct because they aren't the same thing as many people consume milk without cheese whilst some consume the two. It isn't possible to consume cheese without milk (as one makes the other) but they are not the same thing. Milk does not mix with cheese well because because they have different properties, ie, one is a solid substance to be used to eat and one is to drink.

I support representative democracy. Referendums is a poor form of democracy. If they do not support the views of thier elected representatives then they should not vote them in.

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I have shown before (again) how they are linked, in my eyes and the eyes of many others no European Union, Council of Europe, European Commission, Court of European Human Rights have been elected, wanted or voted in by the British people, they do not represent us, they are not wanted by us and finally they are all under the march towards a federal European superstate.

You do not support democracy, thats like socialism where they had the communist party incharge without anybody asking and the communists allowing parliamentary elections within. Nobody asked for a European Union.

Do you agree then with the very simple fact that if the United Kingdom was given a referendum on whether it wanted to remain a part of the European Union project to form a United States of Europe/Federal Europe that it would get a resounding no from the public?

Either way, this Council has interfered with a country which should have charge of its own rules, and possibly some human rights like freedom of speech and any to do with religion. If this one single woman is so offended, she has the right to move on. Imposing ideas is just going to make way for a giant circle of "ifs and buts" :/

Can a moderator please edit this threads title as its completely wrong:S

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

I have shown before (again) how they are linked, in my eyes and the eyes of many others no European Union, Council of Europe, European Commission, Court of European Human Rights have been elected, wanted or voted in by the British people, they do not represent us, they are not wanted by us and finally they are all under the march towards a federal European superstate.

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OK, *REMOVED* Bloody Churchill heped dream up the council of europe.

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You do not support democracy, thats like socialism where they had the communist party incharge without anybody asking and the communists allowing parliamentary elections within. Nobody asked for a European Union.

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How the bleeding hell is that not democracy. In your eyes on democracy, we might not bother with a parliament because everything should be held to a referendum. That's bordering anarchy. Are you saying that we don't have democracy in this country? Because you seem to think that we should vote in UKIP and that would be democractic when they would more than likely pull us out of the EU, however you don't respect the current government's actions as democratic. Flawed logic.

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Do you agree then with the very simple fact that if the United Kingdom was given a referendum on whether it wanted to remain a part of the European Union project to form a United States of Europe/Federal Europe that it would get a resounding no from the public?

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No one is asking for a USE, i'm not asking for one. I'd support a democratic USE, but I think that is a LONG way off and I understand why people would be against it. What we have is not a federal europe and the lisbon treaty does not install this either.

Edited by Bolt660 (Forum Moderator): Please do not be rude to other forum Members.

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Originally Posted by GommeInc

Either way, this Council has interfered with a country which should have charge of its own rules, and possibly some human rights like freedom of speech and any to do with religion. If this one single woman is so offended, she has the right to move on. Imposing ideas is just going to make way for a giant circle of "ifs and buts" :/

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Thank you, put simply and without how many branches the EU has split itself into.

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Originally Posted by LuketheDuke

Can a moderator please edit this threads title as its completely wrong:S

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I forgot to laugh.

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OK, *REMOVED* Bloody Churchill heped dream up the council of europe.

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Am I Churchill?

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How the bleeding hell is that not democracy. In your eyes on democracy, we might not bother with a parliament because everything should be held to a referendum. That's bordering anarchy. Are you saying that we don't have democracy in this country? Because you seem to think that we should vote in UKIP and that would be democractic when they would more than likely pull us out of the EU, however you don't respect the current government's actions as democratic. Flawed logic.

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No I think you know fully well what I mean, 84% of our laws are made in the unelected European Union - that is more important than any other issue facing us, because the truth is; you cannot even consider/tackle any other issue without the EU being involved.

The current government were voted in on the promise of a referendum to the British people, so yes I do see that as undemocratic. They promised something to be elected, they got elected and then once in office they went back on that promise.

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No one is asking for a USE, i'm not asking for one. I'd support a democratic USE, but I think that is a LONG way off and I understand why people would be against it. What we have is not a federal europe and the lisbon treaty does not install this either.

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We do have a federal Europe, 84% of our laws are made in the European Union. That is a federal Europe. The EU will now have the power with the self-amending treaty that is Lisbon to install whatever extra laws it feels it wants to install, that is a federal government.

It has a flag.
It has a anthem.
It has a currency.
It will soon have a President.
It will soon have a foreign minister.
It will soon have its own legal identity.
It will soon have a military.
It will soon be able to make decisions without the consent of all governments.
It will soon have embassies around the world.

What more could it possibly do to become a federal superstate in your books?

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Thank you, put simply and without how many branches the EU has split itself into.



..maybe read what i've read.



Am I Churchill?

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No I think you know fully well what I mean, 84% of our laws are made in the unelected European Union - that is more important than any other issue facing us, because the truth is; you cannot even consider/tackle any other issue without the EU being involved.

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WELL DONE! AND DO YOU KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN? THE PEOPLE WILL ELECT IN MAY OR WHENEVER A PRO-EU GOVERNMENT. I DO NOT DOUBT THIS IS AN IMPORTANT ISSUE AND THEREFORE WHEN THE TIME COMES TO ELECT A GOVERNMENT OF WHICH REPRESENTS THE ELECTORATE, THE DECISION WILL BE SHOWN. IF THE CONSERVATIVES WIN, THERE WE HAVE IT, A PRO-EU GOVERNMENT, THEREFORE A PRO-EU ELECTORATE. THAT IS HOW OUR DEMOCRACY WORKS. IF UKIP WIN, WE WILL HAVE A ANTI-EU ELECTORATE. (Y)

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The current government were voted in on the promise of a referendum to the British people, so yes I do see that as undemocratic. They promised something to be elected, they got elected and then once in office they went back on that promise.

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They were promised a referendum on the constitution, which fell through. A similiar treaty got pulled up. If the people of Europe wanted to rid themselves of the EU, why did they not vote in an anti-eu parliament and dissolve the comission over and over until the EU itself was dissolved?

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We do have a federal Europe, 84% of our laws are made in the European Union. That is a federal Europe. The EU will now have the power with the self-amending treaty that is Lisbon to install whatever extra laws it feels it wants to install, that is a federal government.

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It has a flag.
It has a anthem.

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Flag represents Europe as a whole. The Georgians use the European flag, it doesn't mean it's in the EU. The anthem is a joke and should be removed.

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It has a currency.

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Which is elective in if a member state wants to use it. We don't. Nor does Sweden or Poland.

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It will soon have a President.

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Who has no real power. We've had a president before hand, but the presidency rotated every 6 months.

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It will soon have a foreign minister.

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Which is a post formed by two posts which were already there in the first place.

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It will soon have its own legal identity.
It will soon have a military.

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The first is true but I doubt the latter will materialise, nor do I support one.

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It will soon be able to make decisions without the consent of all governments.
It will soon have embassies around the world.

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But the new voting system will be weighted in most cases on size of population.

Citizens already had the right to use other states' embassies.

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What more could it possibly do to become a federal superstate in your books?

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Criminal law, further taxation law, education law, an 'FBI,' Schengen agreement covering all states, common immigration and asylum law, official flag, EU sports teams, 'federal' courts in member states, president with actual power.

Seriously man take a chill.

people disagree with your arguments as their extremely easy to pick apart, not to mention that the title of this thread implies EU law imposes a crucifix ban when it was a judicial verdict reached by the European Court of Human Rights. If you try and lump them together you lose all credibility as it further suggests you know nothing about Europe.

and stop the percentages game, Ive heard so many conflicting numbers now it obviously isnt a fact.

Deep breaths!!

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They were promised a referendum on the constitution, which fell through. A similiar treaty got pulled up. If the people of Europe wanted to rid themselves of the EU, why did they not vote in an anti-eu parliament and dissolve the comission over and over until the EU itself was dissolved?

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If you take it that way then, the Conservatives came first in the European Parliamentary Elections and UKIP came second, so we can have our referendum on Lisbon yes or no?

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Flag represents Europe as a whole. The Georgians use the European flag, it doesn't mean it's in the EU. The anthem is a joke and should be removed.

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It still has a flag, believe it or not the Union Flag is not the offical flag of the United Kingdom and what i read on it a while back i'm pretty sure the United Kingdom doesn't actually have an offical flag.

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Which is elective in if a member state wants to use it. We don't. Nor does Sweden or Poland.

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The European Union has been pushing for us to join the Euro and many Labour/Liberal Democrat MPs' also want the Euro to replace the Pound Sterling.

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Who has no real power. We've had a president before hand, but the presidency rotated every 6 months.

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Who said they have no real power? - according to the European Union itself apparently the role hasn't exactly been set out yet. We were also told that Lisbon was a 'tidying up' exercise, when in reality it was the Consitution (which was rejected) just with bits moved about so don't be suprised if I don't believe a word any european union-phile tells me.

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Which is a post formed by two posts which were already there in the first place.

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Thus centralising and making the European Union more and more like a superstate, I was not asked this and neither was the rest of the British electorate.

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The first is true but I doubt the latter will materialise, nor do I support one.

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We were told years ago that the European Economic Community would only ever be a economic community and never a political, social and economic union - don't play us as fools.

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But the new voting system will be weighted in most cases on size of population.

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The point still stands, national interests will now be dismissed and trod on.

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Citizens already had the right to use other states' embassies.

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I-do-not-want-European-Union-embassies. That is the mark of a country.

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Criminal law, further taxation law, education law, an 'FBI,' Schengen agreement covering all states, common immigration and asylum law, official flag, EU sports teams, 'federal' courts in member states, president with actual power.

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It already has immigration laws forcing us to accept immigrants from eastern europe, it already has its place in criminal justice, it already has a flag and it will have a President (unelected) fairly soon.

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Seriously man take a chill.

people disagree with your arguments as their extremely easy to pick apart, not to mention that the title of this thread implies EU law imposes a crucifix ban when it was a judicial verdict reached by the European Court of Human Rights. If you try and lump them together you lose all credibility as it further suggests you know nothing about Europe.

and stop the percentages game, Ive heard so many conflicting numbers now it obviously isnt a fact.

Deep breaths!!

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The only study ever taken on the transfer of powers from national parliaments around Europe to Brussels was a German study, its often shortend to 75% but the actual figure was 84%. I have not changed any figures, what you see is what you get. I have proven how the European insitutions are all linked yet you have dismissed it.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

The world isn't black and white babe, clearly the EU does not eradicate the jewish people, however where Nazi Germany and the EU are on the same lines is where they both wanted a federal Europe, get it?



I have just proven how they are linked. Check out sources, check out wikipedia, check out other sites - I have just shown how each organisation was formed/is supported by the other and how they all aim for a federal europe.



I have just shown, again look above.



Europe under one flag, whats the difference? - you tell me.

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you act as if im a 5 year old, when actually your not thinking through what you're saying...

you're acting like nobody agreed to it, and that everyone hates it? as you say "just like Adolf wanted" he would do far worse things to get it and rule it