Is it right for countries to ban the Islamic burqa? [ENDS 01/08/2010]

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Originally Posted by Hitman

In that instance it'd be easier to find them, however you should see where I live. There are many people here wearing burkas... they are not so uncommon here and thus would be harder to find. I mean, sure they'd be easy to find in a crowd full of people dressing normally, but in a crowd of people where there are also other burka wearers then it's not so easy. Secondly, you probably didn't hear about it but some man dressed in a burka and tried to enter a jewellers. The owners buzzed him in, afterall he was a religious woman in a burka, right? Not so, as soon as he opened the door a load of men (in balaclavas I believe) barged in and ransacked the place. Then there's the extremist who tried to blow himself up, failed and tried to escape by wearing a burka as somebody mentioned before.

We all abide by laws and restrictions on what we can do, so none of us are truly free - and if we were truly free would we enjoy it? We'd be allowed to beat the **** out of somebody for no good reason, we could rape and murder without consequences... I think I'll stick to what we have now, thanks.

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there have been multiple stories in the united states of men dressing as women who rob banks/convenience stores. do you think we've banned wigs? again, this is just picking out a very particular aspect of something and ignoring everything else. the jewelers story you just mentioned: why would they have not let him in for being a man? i dont really get it. but ignoring that, a man in a burqa is able to gain entrance, and his cronies are able to smash the place up and get away with it; and the detail you find shocking is the burqa? why isnt the first thing you think "hey, maybe more police should patrol this area" or "maybe if there was a better security system for the store"? the burqa is to blame?

and if you're really comparing allowing religious headgear with rape and murder you're off your rocker.

I think we're focusing too heavily on western cultures or multi-national cultures. I think some countries have the right to ban them if it totally contradicts their values, beliefs and habits. Seeing as England, America, the Netherlands and so forth have been pretty open for a long time, it's too late if not pointless for them to attempt as an outright ban as we're all pretty different here so we accept (to some extent) and live and let live.

I wish I knew a small country that would be completely shocked as an example, but I can't think of any :S Infact, I think the dutch may have some sort of ban on them, as they take the opposite end, they feel everyone is equal to an extent so a burkha which discriminates against women is against the country's view on themselves and their lives, but I'm not entirely 100% on that. Obviously culture found in tribes would be completely against it, where facial expressions make up the language.

They are hideous lol. At least if you saw someone wearing a balaclava you know straight away to avoid them. But when it is someone with a burqa you have to walk past them being 50/50 unsure of them, you are likely to take the risk of walking past them because you don't want to appear rude or make it obvious by crossing the road but when doing so you have to keep reasuring yourself that it is just some pakistani or w/e in her religious outfit. I mean if covering your face is not enough, wearing massive robe things that completely hide the shape and size of your body is just taking it to the next level, you could carry a machine gun inside them robes and nobody would think twice.

Here is one for ya, just your average pakistani family taking some family photos (lol pretty pointless I know) and then all of a sudden they all pull out loads of guns. They have been able to walk right into somewhere whether it be a bank or an airport without raising any suspicions.

http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archi...groupphoto.jpg

If burqas do get banned and we arrest people who wear them then there is nothing unfair about that because if you go to somewhere like Dubai you will be arrested and put in prison for kissing your wife in public. It is just human nature to know who the person you are looking at is. Dogs recognise other dogs by smelling them, if you took away a dogs ability to do that which is just what burqas are doing then the dog isn't going to be happy, just like the majority of britain isn't happy. I have never actually had to have a conversation with someone wearing a burqa but if I did I would just ignore them.

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Originally Posted by Hitman

In that instance it'd be easier to find them, however you should see where I live. There are many people here wearing burkas... they are not so uncommon here and thus would be harder to find. I mean, sure they'd be easy to find in a crowd full of people dressing normally, but in a crowd of people where there are also other burka wearers then it's not so easy. Secondly, you probably didn't hear about it but some man dressed in a burka and tried to enter a jewellers. The owners buzzed him in, afterall he was a religious woman in a burka, right? Not so, as soon as he opened the door a load of men (in balaclavas I believe) barged in and ransacked the place. Then there's the extremist who tried to blow himself up, failed and tried to escape by wearing a burka as somebody mentioned before.

We all abide by laws and restrictions on what we can do, so none of us are truly free - and if we were truly free would we enjoy it? We'd be allowed to beat the **** out of somebody for no good reason, we could rape and murder without consequences... I think I'll stick to what we have now, thanks.

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there have been numerous instances in the u.s. of men dressed in womens clothing robbing places. did we ban wigs? this is just picking out a very specific but innocuous detail. like the story you just mentioned about a man in a burqa and the jewelry store; why isnt your first thought "that part of town should have more police patrol" or "that store should have better security and safety systems"? why go straight to blaming the burqa? its just a minor detail in a case that has several more obvious instances of concern.

and if youre really comparing allowing burqas with allowing rape and murder youre off your rocker.

it all comes down to what you stand for. liberty isnt about being safe. after 9/11 the united states government could have banned flying, and it technically would have saved all the lives of people who have died on airplanes since (theres obviously more to it than that but this is just a short example). since a few trouble makers took advantage of the system and were able to cause mayhem, that means no one, even completely innocent people, can use those means ever again, right? thats the same logic in the argument of banning the burqa on a larger scale. while banning the burqa would hardly cause a change in my day, i would much much much prefer to live in a country that doesnt tell me what i can or cannot wear, even if that means that (somehow) im more at risk. this ties in to my benjamin franklin quote from earlier.

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Originally Posted by Superior

They are hideous lol. At least if you saw someone wearing a balaclava you know straight away to avoid them. But when it is someone with a burqa you have to walk past them being 50/50 unsure of them, you are likely to take the risk of walking past them because you don't want to appear rude or make it obvious by crossing the road but when doing so you have to keep reasuring yourself that it is just some pakistani or w/e in her religious outfit. I mean if covering your face is not enough, wearing massive robe things that completely hide the shape and size of your body is just taking it to the next level, you could carry a machine gun inside them robes and nobody would think twice.

Here is one for ya, just your average pakistani family taking some family photos (lol pretty pointless I know) and then all of a sudden they all pull out loads of guns. They have been able to walk right into somewhere whether it be a bank or an airport without raising any suspicions.

http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archi...groupphoto.jpg

If burqas do get banned and we arrest people who wear them then there is nothing unfair about that because if you go to somewhere like Dubai you will be arrested and put in prison for kissing your wife in public. It is just human nature to know who the person you are looking at is. Dogs recognise other dogs by smelling them, if you took away a dogs ability to do that which is just what burqas are doing then the dog isn't going to be happy, just like the majority of britain isn't happy. I have never actually had to have a conversation with someone wearing a burqa but if I did I would just ignore them.

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and heres one for you. this is a picture of mc hammer:
http://www.scene-stealers.com/wp-con.../mc-hammer.jpg

his baggy pants could be holding anything! a bomb, machine guns, poison gas, who knows! we should ban him and his parachute pants, right?

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Originally Posted by RedStratocas

there have been numerous instances in the u.s. of men dressed in womens clothing robbing places. did we ban wigs? this is just picking out a very specific but innocuous detail. like the story you just mentioned about a man in a burqa and the jewelry store; why isnt your first thought "that part of town should have more police patrol" or "that store should have better security and safety systems"? why go straight to blaming the burqa? its just a minor detail in a case that has several more obvious instances of concern.

and if youre really comparing allowing burqas with allowing rape and murder youre off your rocker.

it all comes down to what you stand for. liberty isnt about being safe. after 9/11 the united states government could have banned flying, and it technically would have saved all the lives of people who have died on airplanes since (theres obviously more to it than that but this is just a short example). since a few trouble makers took advantage of the system and were able to cause mayhem, that means no one, even completely innocent people, can use those means ever again, right? thats the same logic in the argument of banning the burqa on a larger scale. while banning the burqa would hardly cause a change in my day, i would much much much prefer to live in a country that doesnt tell me what i can or cannot wear, even if that means that (somehow) im more at risk. this ties in to my benjamin franklin quote from earlier.



and heres one for you. this is a picture of mc hammer:
http://www.scene-stealers.com/wp-con.../mc-hammer.jpg

his baggy pants could be holding anything! a bomb, machine guns, poison gas, who knows! we should ban him and his parachute pants, right?

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thank god we have some common sense recently. i feel like ive been mad with my rational thoughts.

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Originally Posted by RedStratocas

and heres one for you. this is a picture of mc hammer:
http://www.scene-stealers.com/wp-con.../mc-hammer.jpg

his baggy pants could be holding anything! a bomb, machine guns, poison gas, who knows! we should ban him and his parachute pants, right?

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You know... I never really thought about that but you are absolutely right! I shall now avoid MC hammer parachute pants wearers with caution, cheers bud you might have just saved my life.

This issue for me can be summed up in one word: sticky. For some people wearing the burqa's is a sign of them conforming to their religion, but (and I'm not too sure if it does or doesn't before I say it,) does the Qur'an specify that they have burqa? According to Gavin Hewitt from the BBC and in his article ''Banning the Burqa'' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereport...the_burqa.html) he says that 70% of the public in France are for the banning of the burqa or niqab in public.

I've always found it slightly intimidating when I've seen people wearing them, I'm completely tolerant of them wearing it if they feel it shows that they are fully committed to their religion but do they have to wear it all the time? If a ban such as the one which has already passed through the lower part of the French parliament and looks sure to become law comes over to the UK, it'll be a lot more harder to push through I believe. The multi-culture and multi-ethnicity that we have in the UK has become so ingrained in our culture and indeed in our communities that I think it would be difficult to even begin the process of banning it and rolling out the fine which is what will happen to those who decide not to follow the French law should it become law.

I think it comes down to two things: identity and choice. We're a westernised society that believes in freedom of speech and the right to ''wear'' what we wish. Gavin Hewitt continues in his blog post (URL posted above,) that in France, Francois Fillon the French prime minister says that the reason they are pushing this is that the people who wear burqa's are '

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'hijacking Islam'

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and provoking a

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' dark and sectarian image,''

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in the sense that those who are born/emigrate to France are embracing the French national identity.

Which is what exactly? Apart from the traditional stereotypes that they all smell of garlic, wear black and white shirts and eat French bread, can anyone actually specify what the French identity is exactly? If you tried, you'd be infringing on freedom of speech and the freedom to be whoever you like; something which we as a westernised world are so adamant to enforce. Banning burqa's for me would be a infringement of a person's individual identity and would stop them expressing themselves so easily. Hell, if we did this, whose to say that those women who are forced to wear them by their husbands wouldn't just stay at home permanently? Forget trying to fine them, it could lead to segregation; something which would be ironic considering France's push for a overall ''one'' identity.

Link to Gavin Hewitt's report: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereport...the_burqa.html

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Originally Posted by alexxxxx

you can't force different races to live where you want them to live (although singapore does this to get a 'healthy mix'). all the 'problem' areas are where old industries were (and where people from the commonwealth were brought in the 50s/60s to work there - real open door immigration) and no other fairly low-skilled industries replaced them when they closed in the 70s and 80s. in france the riots are with white people too and thats whats happened in the past in britain too.

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No I agree you cannot, but a lot of this stems from the type of people coming into this country. The earlier communities from the post-war immigration were Christian and hold values dear to this country, more to the point they actually had respect and a desire to fit in to this country and its way of life. You just described immigration back then as 'open-door' immigration, but its not its the opposite. Back then we accepted people we needed to manage the factories as you say yourself and back then we still had control of our borders of who could and could not enter this country.

Nowadays we have a system which is out of control both from Europe (regarding the European Union and Eastern Europe) and immigration rules in general which are incredibly lax. We also have an open-door asylum policy despite the fact asylum is supposed to be sought in the first safe country you travel across. To enter this country you should be able to speak the mother tongue (English), have a job we require, be of a certain age and you should only have access to the welfare state after a period of 10 years of working.

All people want is some form of control, looking around in Alton Towers the other week - it actually scares me how out of scale the problem has become, and this is up north we are talking about here. I feel that a ban on the burka is perhaps too far for my ideal world but would be appropiate in the present situation. If immigration were to be handled properly and managed properly then I believe many would not wear the burka, as they would be the ones out of place in their neighbourhoods - not the other way around as is the case today.

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Originally Posted by alexxxxx

because my parents don't influence stupid ideas on me about how they think 'society' should be, or about immigrants and i've been able to make up my own view on the world without any sort of influence. my parents have only ever spoken about politics to me since i was 18. they don't buy newspapers apart from on sundays - where they get the fairly centrist times (compared to other papers).

it's true that we aren't as "free" as we could be, but you think more taking away civil liberties is a good way of going about it which is some twisted thinking in my book.

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Concerning civil liberties, you seem pretty sound with the idea that British subjects are now accountable to foreign courts rather than British courts? not to mention the fact the European Union has signed various deals with the United States (another foreign body) to share our details.. oh and then there is always the European Arrest Warrant which has eroded our centuries old legal system and the idea of Heabeas corpus (innocent until proven guilty). Civil liberties are not there to pick and choose from.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

No I agree you cannot, but a lot of this stems from the type of people coming into this country. The earlier communities from the post-war immigration were Christian and hold values dear to this country, more to the point they actually had respect and a desire to fit in to this country and its way of life. You just described immigration back then as 'open-door' immigration, but its not its the opposite. Back then we accepted people we needed to manage the factories as you say yourself and back then we still had control of our borders of who could and could not enter this country.

Nowadays we have a system which is out of control both from Europe (regarding the European Union and Eastern Europe) and immigration rules in general which are incredibly lax. We also have an open-door asylum policy despite the fact asylum is supposed to be sought in the first safe country you travel across. To enter this country you should be able to speak the mother tongue (English), have a job we require, be of a certain age and you should only have access to the welfare state after a period of 10 years of working.

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Asylum seekers often come in planes you know. ALL the people you see at callais are ALL illegal immigrants because they have not applied for asylum in france.

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All people want is some form of control, looking around in Alton Towers the other week - it actually scares me how out of scale the problem has become, and this is up north we are talking about here. I feel that a ban on the burka is perhaps too far for my ideal world but would be appropiate in the present situation. If immigration were to be handled properly and managed properly then I believe many would not wear the burka, as they would be the ones out of place in their neighbourhoods - not the other way around as is the case today.

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Alton Towers is in the midlands ;) Are you scared that people are not white? is that an issue for you?

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Concerning civil liberties, you seem pretty sound with the idea that British subjects are now accountable to foreign courts rather than British courts? not to mention the fact the European Union has signed various deals with the United States (another foreign body) to share our details.. oh and then there is always the European Arrest Warrant which has eroded our centuries old legal system and the idea of Heabeas corpus (innocent until proven guilty). Civil liberties are not there to pick and choose from.

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I'm glad that we have joined a bloc that makes sure it rules protecting civil liberties in respect to privacy, data protection and data handling - ALL which the UK government seem very reluctant to abide by AND i like the CoE's human rights laws and the like that we have here now too. I don't feel that being subject to european and 'FORIN' courts really are against my civil liberties.

I believe it should banned, firstly the burka is not a compulsory piece of clothing in Islam, research tells me that a simple hijab is enough yet some Muslims go over the top. - People can see this as intimidating, and I can see why.

However, we have accepted these people to come to our country, the UK. A multi-cultural society. A place of freedom.
We are over in Afghanistan where most women do wear the Burka, and they also happen to live in the UK. It doesn't exactly make sense to ban it if we're there; it would cause more problems.