Fmr Labour Home Secretary, David Blunkett, warns Roma immigration 'could cause riots'

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Wow that's a pretty discriminatory remark towards the Roma people isn't it? Nevertheless, they both hold the same citizienship therefore when we're talking of the door opening to Romania we are talking about the door opening to Roma and the run-of-the-mill Romanians. Is that simple enough for everyone to understand?

But moving on from that diversion and I notice you haven't addressed my point. You claim it's a level playing field with uneducated or lazy British youngsters simply losing out to foreign workers, yet fail to understand that many of the companies are totally bypassing British youngster and are employing foreign workers directly because foreign workers are willing to work off the books for below the minimum wage and thus avoids tax.

Is this fair to British workers? it's not and you know it so don't pretend the playing field is level.

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Why are you focusing on Romani people then? Just because a small group of Romani people live in Romania, we are also opening doors to the chavvy Romanians, the rich Romanians, the Christian Romanians, the Muslim Romanians, the gay Romanians etc. etc.

4% of Romanians are Romani, and not all Romani people live in Romania. So quite clearly Romani =/= Romania.

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Originally Posted by Chippiewill

So if you're not going to trust estimates why should they bother publishing them.

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I don't trust them, but the fact they haven't published an official estimate tells you everything you need to know. The truth is that the government either won't release the information because the numbers expected are already high, or, the numbers have been made to look soft and the government refuses to release them incase what happened back in 2004 is repeated and the government look like liars again.

If there's nothing to worry about then why won't the government release any figures?

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Originally Posted by Chippiewill

29 million people, the vast majority of which have better places to go. If a 100,000 romanians want to come to the UK then it's fine by me, it's a long way to come though so I doubt it.

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It's fine by you that 100,000 people (a quarter the size of Liverpool) can suddenly arrive in our country and claim from the welfare, benefits system and be treated on the NHS? it's fine by you that 100,000 people can come in despite the fact we may not be in need of 95% of their skills? it's fine by you that areas of our country will be completely changed and that people will feel alienated in their own areas? it's fine by you that 100,000 people may come into this country of which a vast majority could be criminals?

Sure it's fine by you - just as with the politicians, aslong as it doesn't effect you.

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Originally Posted by Chippiewill

Not a fair analogy. A fair analogy would be that I can have a criminal record and still move from California to Nevada no problem.

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The United States is a sovereign state. The United Kingdom is not Romania. See, this is how demented you are on this - i'm arguing that it's unwise to allow potential criminals into our country as we already have enough of our own, and you - incredibly - are actually arguing against that.

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Originally Posted by Kardan

Why are you focusing on Romani people then? Just because a small group of Romani people live in Romania, we are also opening doors to the chavvy Romanians, the rich Romanians, the Christian Romanians, the Muslim Romanians, the gay Romanians etc. etc.

4% of Romanians are Romani, and not all Romani people live in Romania. So quite clearly Romani =/= Romania.

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Have I wrote once in this thread that I believe Romania (minus the Roma) and Bulgaria should have open borders with this country? No, I have not. I have stated quite clearly that the borders with Romania (including the Roma) and Bulgaria should not be opened. Now, is that simple enough to understand or what?

Let's make it simple.

Romanian citizens (which includes Roma) + Bulgarian citizens = I would not allow open orders with either.

Get it? and again - no response concerning British workers. Your quick to throw insults at the British unemployed and our youngsters yet when challenged you have nothing to say in response.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Wow that's a pretty discriminatory remark towards the Roma people isn't it? Nevertheless, they both hold the same citizienship therefore when we're talking of the door opening to Romania we are talking about the door opening to Roma and the run-of-the-mill Romanians. Is that simple enough for everyone to understand?

But moving on from that diversion and I notice you haven't addressed my point. You claim it's a level playing field with uneducated or lazy British youngsters simply losing out to foreign workers, yet fail to understand that many of the companies are totally bypassing British youngster and are employing foreign workers directly because foreign workers are willing to work off the books for below the minimum wage and thus avoids tax.

Is this fair to British workers? it's not and you know it so don't pretend the playing field is level.



You could say it but you'd look a fool as you seemingly don't understand that one of the prime aims of a country should be to get unemployment down (especially youth unemployment) so that in future we have a skilled home-grown workforce that is capable of running an economy and creating wealth. Importing workers is a sticking plaster over a wound.

But again, this whole debate is flawed to begin with - it's claimed that British youngsters don't want to do the jobs yet were the fruit and veg rotting in the fields of southern England pre-2004? no they were not. British people were working on those farms and picking the fruit and veg.

If Britons picked it back then, Britons (especially with a lack of jobs in 2013) are perfectly capable of doing so again.

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So to tackle youth unemployment we need to get qualifications and work skills improved, because I'm pretty sure the fruit and veg aren't rotting in southern England. Those jobs are already taken.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

it's fine by you that 100,000 people may come into this country of which a vast majority could be criminals?

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Umm... What? So basically you're saying: "You're foreign, you're a criminal"

Surely that's as bad as me saying: "You're black, you're a criminal"

@-:Undertaker:-, can you provide a link to an article that actually names these British firms offering jobs ONLY in a foreign language? Can you also link to the news articles? And no, I don't want a link (like I found myself) of Nigel Farage telling me this is happening.

Sent from my HTC One X

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Originally Posted by Payasam

@-:Undertaker:-, can you provide a link to an article that actually names these British firms offering jobs ONLY in a foreign language? Can you also link to the news articles? And no, I don't want a link (like I found myself) of Nigel Farage telling me this is happening.

Sent from my HTC One X

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Sent from my HTC One X

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Blah blah blah

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So you say that many companies employ foreign workers because they will work for below minimum wage. Can you give me examples of these many, many, many companies? I mean there must be thousands if that is the main reason that the British youth are unemployed, and not because further education rates are some of the poorest in developed countries.

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Originally Posted by Kardan

So to tackle youth unemployment we need to get qualifications and work skills improved

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Well done for dodging the question, let's try again. You claim that British workers and mainly youngsters are either lazy and uneducated and therefore the companies in southern England have no choice but to hire better skilled workers from abroad.

Now my argument is that this is a false argument as many of the companies will only advertise in a foreign language and in a foreign country meaning that although the British workers may be just as right for the job, they don't stand a chance because the job is only being advertised to foreign workers due to the fact that many will work off the books and for under the minimam wage.

So that's not a level playing field, is it?

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Originally Posted by Kardan

I'm pretty sure the fruit and veg aren't rotting in southern England. Those jobs are already taken.

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And did they rot pre-2004? yes or no.

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Originally Posted by Kardan

Umm... What? So basically you're saying: "You're foreign, you're a criminal"

Surely that's as bad as me saying: "You're black, you're a criminal"

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http://www.reactionface.info/sites/d...4029819767.png

Based on the crime figures from the Met Police, a large proportion of the Romanians who are here are criminal yes. See the FactCheck link I posted earlier.

But whether a large majority are or a small minority are isn't the point - the point is that it is stupid and foolish to allow an open border policy where we are allowing people in who could very well be criminals yet we cannot stop them due to the EU open border policy.

Would a sensible policy not be to have a controlled immigration policy whereby we only allow those in who we need in terms of skills and who do not have a criminal record?

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Originally Posted by Kardan

So you say that many companies employ foreign workers because they will work for below minimum wage. Can you give me examples of these many, many, many companies? I mean there must be thousands if that is the main reason that the British youth are unemployed, and not because further education rates are some of the poorest in developed countries.

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...r-Romania.html

There's some figures in that, i'll dig deeper for others tommorow if you would like.

And you keep bringing up education yet I agree with you - but that is not an excuse for throwing all of the people who have been failed by our crap comprehensive education system onto the scrapheap. If those Britons out of work are capable of picking veg and fruit on the fields or packing in a factory then they should be the ones who are getting the jobs and not Eastern Europeans.

In the words of Gordon Brown - British jobs for British workers.

Dan you seem to be missing the point entirely on my post - I wasn't commenting on whether or not "the doors" to this country should be opened, I was expressing disbelief at the fact that less than 4% of the population of a country are being targeted in this article and that it's entirely wrong to to call this a Roma immigration when the Romani can and do already immigrate regardless of what happens in Romania. When you attempted to be clever by saying "Roma to my knowledge have Romanian citizenship dear, thus are included in the estimates" it was in direct response (at least that's what I thought the quote feature was for) to me saying that Romani and Romanian aren't the same thing, and if it doesn't show that you thought them to be one and the same then it was just you completely disregarding the point to state an obvious and unnecessary fact that actually had nothing to do with my point.

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Originally Posted by FlyingJesus

Dan you seem to be missing the point entirely on my post - I wasn't commenting on whether or not "the doors" to this country should be opened, I was expressing disbelief at the fact that less than 4% of the population of a country are being targeted in this article and that it's entirely wrong to to call this a Roma immigration when the Romani can and do already immigrate regardless of what happens in Romania. When you attempted to be clever by saying "Roma to my knowledge have Romanian citizenship dear, thus are included in the estimates" it was in direct response (at least that's what I thought the quote feature was for) to me saying that Romani and Romanian aren't the same thing, and if it doesn't show that you thought them to be one and the same then it was just you completely disregarding the point to state an obvious and unnecessary fact that actually had nothing to do with my point.

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But the point is that the wave of immigrants to come to this country are, in my opinion, more likely to be Roma for the simple fact that they are the poorest in Romanian society and are essentially treated like dirt. Not only that, but they also have a long history of travelling about and moving.

I'm not bothered whether they're Bulgarian, Roma, Romanian, Greek or Polish - the borders should not be left wide open for anybody and everybody to simply come right in: not when we have creeking social services, a stretched Police force, high youth unemployment and community tensions.

If any of the above want to come in then fine - they should have to apply and be judged on whether we need them, whether our social security can cope, social cohesion concerns and criminal records. If they pass all of those then sure, they can come in - regardless of whether they are Greek or Roma.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Well done for dodging the question, let's try again. You claim that British workers and mainly youngsters are either lazy and uneducated and therefore the companies in southern England have no choice but to hire better skilled workers from abroad.

Now my argument is that this is a false argument as many of the companies will only advertise in a foreign language and in a foreign country meaning that although the British workers may be just as right for the job, they don't stand a chance because the job is only being advertised to foreign workers due to the fact that many will work off the books and for under the minimam wage.

So that's not a level playing field, is it?



And did they rot pre-2004? yes or no.



http://www.reactionface.info/sites/d...4029819767.png

Based on the crime figures from the Met Police, a large proportion of the Romanians who are here are criminal yes. See the FactCheck link I posted earlier.

But whether a large majority are or a small minority are isn't the point - the point is that it is stupid and foolish to allow an open border policy where we are allowing people in who could very well be criminals yet we cannot stop them due to the EU open border policy.

Would a sensible policy not be to have a controlled immigration policy whereby we only allow those in who we need in terms of skills and who do not have a criminal record?

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Once again, please provide me with these many, many companies that are full of foreign workers.

As for the 'Most Romanians are criminals' - there was 27,725 arrests of Romanians over 5 years. It's worth noting that Polish nationals were arrested more over that time (And of course Brits).

These arrests are simply for anything. If you are arrested, the number goes up. Out of those 27,725 arrests, 22,332 were not 'Murder, rape, other sexual offences, burglary, robbery and other violent offences'. So we only have just under a fifth of all arrests as serious crimes. Once again, these are the number of ARRESTS, that means you've been suspected of the crime, not charged. So the number of serious crimes *could* be a lot less than 5,393.

In 2009 (Now 4 years ago), 58,000 Romanians lived in the UK. So, if we assume that that number has risen (which I'm sure you'll agree with), and that the number of Romanians arrested (not charged) for serious crimes is at maximum 5,393 - I think we can say that is *NOT* a large majority of Romanians.

Le end.

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Other notes, if you have spent any time in prison, which you would suspect at least some of these 'Romanian criminals' to have done, your application into the UK is refused until a significant number of years has passed. It's not as if anyone can stroll right in.