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Originally Posted by
-:Undertaker:-
Sweden is still bound by that law to eventually join. It has only stalled joining, for now. If banking, treasury and eventually political union goes ahead then Sweden will have no choice but to join the Euro: or leave the EU.
Whilst you're right, I do wonder how long they can hold off on it for.
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Yes. I set out before the referendum how I would react/respond in the event of losing. The campaign would have continued of course, but I would have accepted the result and waited until the next treaty change (10 yrs+).
The fight was never going to be over of course given the EU's direction towards eventual political union.
Just out of curiosity, any evidence of this view I can see?
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The European Defence integration that was announced immediately after the referendum for one.
Can't find evidence of Remain denying this would happen.
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I support FPTP.
And remember, it was through votes and decades of campaigning that we secured the referendum. Ukip pressured the Conservatives via by-elections into holding a referendum. The Conservatives were then elected on a promise to hold a referendum which they did. In the past, various referendums on treaties have been promised but none were ever delivered. It was our turn to have our say and so we did, reflecting on 40 odd years of membership. We said out.
Decades that could have been avoided if UKIP and others had actually got proper representation in Parliament, not that I believe the EU would have been as big of an issue as it is today if we had PR.
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Good, and we're not going to get that as the Tory right will not accept it. I did not vote to continue to be subject to the Single Market rules of the EU nor did I vote to continue the jurisdiction of the ECJ or Freedom of Movement.
We'll have access to the Single Market in a Canadian style deal is my view.
So what you actually are saying is we will have to take on some of the rules of the single market.
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The rest of us don't see it like that.
Literally the first thing I say: Do you actually want to know why I don't want to leave? Which I believe I said because you kept assuming you knew why I voted remain.
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See, your side just doesn't understand it even now.
It was never about material things to me and many of the campaigners. There are things in life more important than money, more important than grants, more important than opt outs, more important than spending ten minutes to fill in a visa. This to me was about national sovereignty and my country's independence. Those are the ultimate values to me politically that underpin absolutely everything else, and I wanted it to matter when I went to the ballot box and voted.
I fundamentally disagree with the concept of a federal Europe and therefore the European project is something I cannot go along and do not want my country to go along with. I believe it will end in blood and economic ruin. I have said before that even if the EU was paying us or even me personally £350m a week to be in it, I would still have voted out. Had God appeared before me on the 22nd June and told me I was going to drop dead if I voted Leave then I would have still done it and gladly dropped dead.
I voted on virtues, values, history and identity. Nothing - money, politicians, events - could ever alter my choice. Generations of Britons and our Empire have voluntarily given their very lives for our sovereignty and national independence and I am not going to hand it away to avoid filling in a visa or to avoid a 2.5% trade tariff. Not not, not ever or in a thousand years.
Except money isn't just about material goods. It's the food, which we import a lot of from other EU countries which there's no certainty of any kind of deal post-Brexit. It may not be about grants to you directly, but what happens if Westminster doesn't match current EU funding? We just take a massive dump on science? Oh well we may not be innovating but at least I have my sweet sovereignty which I can have with my Shreddies. I'd also argue you've very much understated how frustrating visas can be at times.
You keep going on about not liking a federal Europe, and that's fine I can see your positions in that and I believe if the EU were to evolve into that a lot of remainers would vote out also. But we're not there. We don't have to be there as it has been shown before since we essentially are in our own little club. The only reason we would go further is if we had someone who believed in it which is, you know, if we democratically under FPTP (lol) voted someone to do that.
I like how you reference the British Empire and sovereignty in the same sentence. It's also quite possible that no soldier actually gave a shit about all of that and rather were called under conscription! Or, in more modern cases, simply needed a job i.e. they needed money.
So let me ask, how has the EU in the current form affected British virtues, values, history and identity?
