My opinions and flaws about HXF.

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Originally Posted by jrh2002

I love posting in other forums but over the past few weeks/month I have rarely made it out of the feedback forum.
Alot of people have mentioned to me that HxF has lost its community spirit because of the size it has got and thats probably right.

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I agree, I know the forum is for everyone, but we have to many immature members for the mature members to enjoy this forum.

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Originally Posted by jrh2002

I love posting in other forums but over the past few weeks/month I have rarely made it out of the feedback forum.
Alot of people have mentioned to me that HxF has lost its community spirit because of the size it has got and thats probably right.

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I think its more the lack of presents on the forum. The majority of the staff (not all) dont really USE the forum itself all that much. Its quite rare you come across posts or topics from members of staff these day. There are a select few who do turn up occasionally, but the vast majority ive never once seen post outside the feedback forums.

I think thats the big difference, since back in 04/05, you had Jack/Seacat and quite a few other staff who genuinely used the forum rather than just taking rolls as staff. They posted topics, engaged in discussion and posted ALOT.
there's no staff like that any more.
Thats why there's this divide between the staff and members, Way back when most the staff were people who used the forum, They were people you talked to and saw around the place. It seemed like staff were picked from users.
I just dont see that any more, none of the people i see around the forum ever seem to become staff, and the staff never seem to act as members, they simply cease using the forum. The few ex staff members around today are the exceptions to this rule, but noticeably, there no longer staff.

I have to agree, even on large forums like Facepunch the owner, garry (guy who made garrys mod [duh]) posts and makes threads to a community of over 100,000.

Surely to a community of 400-500 it's not that difficult...

management seems to be one large committee, just busying and nitpicking instead of just sitting back.

A wise man once said to me, you admins are not supposed to be the police, you are to be friendly and give guidance. So isntead of making new petty rules and pointless changes(rep wasn't totally pointless, just exectuted in the wrong way) you should sit back and ideally never have to admin at all :)

edit: Hi j1mI :D

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Originally Posted by 01101101entor

I think its more the lack of presents on the forum. The majority of the staff (not all) dont really USE the forum itself all that much. Its quite rare you come across posts or topics from members of staff these day. There are a select few who do turn up occasionally, but the vast majority ive never once seen post outside the feedback forums.

I think thats the big difference, since back in 04/05, you had Jack/Seacat and quite a few other staff who genuinely used the forum rather than just taking rolls as staff. They posted topics, engaged in discussion and posted ALOT.
there's no staff like that any more.
Thats why there's this divide between the staff and members, Way back when most the staff were people who used the forum, They were people you talked to and saw around the place. It seemed like staff were picked from users.
I just dont see that any more, none of the people i see around the forum ever seem to become staff, and the staff never seem to act as members, they simply cease using the forum. The few ex staff members around today are the exceptions to this rule, but noticeably, there no longer staff.

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I know that ---MAD--- does post a lot around the forum (last time I noticed), but in truth, the more high ranking staff spend so much of their time in this feedback forum, and the complaints forum, that we simply don't have the time to access the rest of the forum, make meaningful posts, and carry out the rest of our jobs.

I know that I can come on this forum and, after sorting anything that needs doing in my departmnt, my attention will focus directly on to this forum (after a quick glance at the announcements) because I know for a fact that there is going to be some new debate about how Habbox is crap and the management are corrupt that will take forever to read through and make some sort of post in.

In my honest opinion I feel that the majority of the staff feel scared (for want of a better word) of posting on the forum, because they feel that they are going to be targetted by other users idiotic and confrontational nature, and simply find that they would rather post in the staff sections and save themselves the aggro. Most of our staff members are active at least somewhere on this forum, however the majority mainly stick to the staff only sections; whether this is a personal choice, or a pressured choice, is there to be decided.

This forum used to be great back in the day.... now its went down hill the mods give out infractions for fun and most of the good old funny members have left :|

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Originally Posted by Digital

This forum used to be great back in the day.... now its went down hill the mods give out infractions for fun and most of the good old funny members have left :|

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I disagree completely, we still have a lot of members who can always be relied upon to offer a funny, meaningful, interesting, or well written post. I think it is a bit extreme to suggest our moderators give infractions for fun since most of the time, as with any job that requires a decision making process, they are 100% sure in their own mind that a rule is being broken.

If a moderator 100% believes that he or she is giving an infraction/warning to a user because they have broken the rules, then I have no quarrels with that. If the infraction turns out to be given wrongfully and is reversed, then I believe it is down to the forum management and super moderators to instruct as to why the infraction was reversed, and educate the moderators so that they do not make the same mistake again, and understand the rules better.

I am a firm believer in education and strongly believe that the best way to get desired results (in any situation, not just on this forum) is to go through any problems with the person in question, tell them where and why they went wrong, and instruct them on how to make the decision a lot more valid next time around. In my opinion there isn't enough of this taking place, and I am now convinced myself that I need to raise this point with the general mangement.

Call me what you will, but I believe that anyone who tries to compare this forum to the '04-'05 forum is simply comparing apples and bananas. The forum in the earlier years may very well have been better (actually it was a lot more fun, I know that personally.) However the reason that the forum is no longer so community oriented is because of the size its grown and the changing userbase.

In 2004 we had a much smaller community with a much friendlier and mature user base. As the years progressed, our user base has been augmented with large members of petty people, bullies, and people obsessed with virtual property. It is because of this, in my opinion, that what Habbox is has come to change. Now, it may not be the small community where everyone knew everyone and barely fought, however it's not all lost. But I think the view of some members have made it seem that way.

Many members who posted on this thread have posted constructively. However many of the complaints nowadays are really verging on ridiculous. You may think the forum is more complicated with its rules today (and it is) but the complication of its rules are actually in favor of the members. There was one time when I PMd a Super Moderator to ban somebody and he was like, well since its the first and two warnings but one infraction as opposed to two infractions and one warning and he listed off all these special cases that merit a certain ban. Due to the demanding nature of our current userbase, our moderators have to memorize and judge based on instructions that resemble a pilots manual, so many dials and switches and so much to remember.

Its quite frankly ridiculous. Next time you think the rules here resemble "Nazi Germany" and that we are too harsh now, consider this:

• On the 2004 forum, members were consistently banned for two fairly rude posts, especially if they insulted staff. On the 2006 forum they would be warned once and infracted once, possibly infracted twice.
• On the 2004 forum, members were often banned without a reason, a reason was emailed to them on request, and appeals were much less forgiving than they are today.
• On the 2004 forum, members has absolutely 0 warning as to how many times they had broken the rules. The only way to know, and what Admins based their bans on, was the number of posts they had had edited. All the posts they had ever had edited. So a search was needed to figure out how many times they had broken the rules.
• On the 2005 forum (I think it was 05) we used Usernotes. With usernotes, users had even LESS of a clue what was going on, because all of a user's rulebreaks were kept on a record that was not accessible to the user. Furthermore, moderators often weren't allowed to disclose the contents of a person's usernotes to that user. Bans would come out of nowhere, for 18 usernotes, 12 of which the user probably had no clue about.
• On the 2004-2005 forum, usernotes and edits never expired. Everything you ever did in your Habbox career was considered. No two month rule.
• On the 2004-2005 forum, management would simply ban troublemakers, not indulge them.

The years may be off, but the content is right, cause that's from personal exerience. The rules aren't stricter now. They're more complicated to provide more loopholes for members.

The amount members expect is immense. They expect a staff that is solely committed to making a perfect forum for them, with staff enjoyment of their job as a secondary. Habbox is not a business. Habbox is a venture for fun where its run by volunteers who give up their time to keep the community they love running. But often the community they keep running doesn't appreciate a single damned thing they do, and they're not even able to enjoy what they keep going. I could rant, and I would have a long rant, and I'd feel better, but in all honesty a rant would accomplish nothing. So, I'm not going to rant.

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Originally Posted by GoldenMerc

Does this not show that Habbox has changed so much its unlikeable?

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If its completely unlikeable I am not really sure why you're here. If you have absolutely no interest in Habbox and think its a lost cause, I'm sure you could better spend your time running your own site ;) I know how much you love to criticise us but come now.

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Originally Posted by GommeInc

Then Habbox should make a little bit harder to gain rep power from rep points, like they did a year or so ago. Like 1000 rep = 1 bit of rep power, and 1 year = 1 bit of rep power etc.

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That's what we did, 1000 rep = 1 rep power. We're, as has been said, looking at the other numbers again.

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Originally Posted by 01101101entor

As an easy solution for dealing with aurgments, just let people have em. If people want to aurgue and there not runing someone elses thread, why the hell shouldnt they be able to? Its only a problem if it leaves the thread and you get trolling else where.
As for aurgments, i see nothing wrong with them.

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I agree with you. I love arguments. And you could definitely have arguments. The thing is, those arguments have to be mature, and as you said not ruin someone else's thread. No matter what you say, the vast majority of this forum cannot have a mature argument without it spiraling out of control. Well, if not vast majority, at least the majority. It's a shame that there can't be civilized arguments, but its really because of the situation.

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Originally Posted by GommeInc

.... Why? You don't need to monitor it? If there is a problem, let the problems come to you. You don't have to look for the problems, which MAD suggests they are doing. The rep system could of easily been changed without having to resort to what they did. All they needed to do was make it harder to gain rep power from rep points/comments, like 1000 rep points per rep power, and you get one point of rep power per year. They seem to like making a big thing out of nothing it seems, and you can tell there are management issues... They do the silly thing, not the wise thing.

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Your changes to the rep system seem similar? Are you saying that the numbers were too high or are you suggesting a different approach? (Not trying to be confrontational, I'm genuinely trying to understand :P)

Also, the hierarchy of the rep power and the bullying and *behind*-licking that came with it were major reasons why we were forced to make changes.

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Originally Posted by JackHb

I give Habbox Council a few months before it spirals out of control, the staff running it lose intrest and it disapears.

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I could see that happening, I give it a 50/50 chance. It depends how members react to it. There's a possibility they will actually recognize it, and there's a possibility that they'll forget it exists, or because every single thing they want hasn't been accomplished they might conclude that the council is ineffective.

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Originally Posted by 01101101entor

I think its more the lack of presents on the forum. The majority of the staff (not all) dont really USE the forum itself all that much. Its quite rare you come across posts or topics from members of staff these day. There are a select few who do turn up occasionally, but the vast majority ive never once seen post outside the feedback forums.

I think thats the big difference, since back in 04/05, you had Jack/Seacat and quite a few other staff who genuinely used the forum rather than just taking rolls as staff. They posted topics, engaged in discussion and posted ALOT.
there's no staff like that any more.
Thats why there's this divide between the staff and members, Way back when most the staff were people who used the forum, They were people you talked to and saw around the place. It seemed like staff were picked from users.
I just dont see that any more, none of the people i see around the forum ever seem to become staff, and the staff never seem to act as members, they simply cease using the forum. The few ex staff members around today are the exceptions to this rule, but noticeably, there no longer staff.

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Honestly, the reason is because the environment for staff outside of the protective enclave of the staff forums is less than welcoming. Mods are watched with a wary eye just as most of the administrative and management team are. The members seem to think that we belong working, not using the forum. There are occasions when I've made posts, and a member has taken it upon himself to tell me that I should be adding VIP instead. I would love to be able to engage in conversation more, however with the many many complaints I have to wade through I often don't have the time to post in the topics I would like to. Thus I get most of my debate in here :P Otherwise I would probably camp out in the debates forum for a good long time :eusa_danc

I should mention that while I make vast generalizations about our members, I do have a great amount of respect for some members, and its usually the ones who post intelligently. To be perfectly honest, I respect you if you speak in English, speak rationally, respect others, and make points because you believe them, not just to be annoying. That's really what I base my opinions of people on. I just wanted to clarify that I'm not calling all of you argument-mongering idiots :P



PS: Oh yeah your comment about less users is totally off, sorry to burst your bubble :P January 3rd 2008 was the third most popular day on the forum since June '07. And users are at their average levels. (I sort of have the advantage of ACP Stats, so I guess I kind of cheated :P)

Im on it cos of the members actually, Because i get use the web design forums ect.. ;) Thanks for your intrest in that :)

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Originally Posted by Adzeh

I know that ---MAD--- does post a lot around the forum (last time I noticed), but in truth, the more high ranking staff spend so much of their time in this feedback forum, and the complaints forum, that we simply don't have the time to access the rest of the forum, make meaningful posts, and carry out the rest of our jobs.

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I'll admit, mad is one of the few staff who does appear to post on the forum, not alot outside this forum but i have occasionally seen him. Secondly its not really even his job to do that, he's general manager, that's the forum managers job. Granted he does seem the micro managing type, but when that builds up to more work than he likes, hes kinda brining it on himself.

Delegation isnt so well done these days. Secondly this excuse isnt really to well suited for excusing others, since the great majority of the none posting staff rarely post in here, nore have any jobs to do with such activity's.

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I know that I can come on this forum and, after sorting anything that needs doing in my departmnt, my attention will focus directly on to this forum (after a quick glance at the announcements) because I know for a fact that there is going to be some new debate about how Habbox is crap and the management are corrupt that will take forever to read through and make some sort of post in.

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Well technically you dont have to, your not forum management, your site management? Im not entirely sure what the forum staff actually have to do if this kinda thing is seen as your responsibility? Your supposed to be looking after the site (the news primarily im guessing)
Not this forum. Not unless you want to at least.

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In my honest opinion I feel that the majority of the staff feel scared (for want of a better word) of posting on the forum, because they feel that they are going to be targetted by other users idiotic and confrontational nature, and simply find that they would rather post in the staff sections and save themselves the aggro.

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Maybe spineless people who never used the forum arnt the best people to employ as staff then?
Staff for forums are normally picked from people on that forum. Usually from users who are respected and relatively well known on the forum (this is true of forums MUCH larger than habbox). That used to be how it appeared here. Staff really were just members who'd been given more authority to look after the forum. They did because they liked the forum.
If you pick a big forum figure as staff, or at least a big forum user, people will already know them, people will support them, there already peoples friends and theres no way there gonna be scared to use the forum.
If there scared, which requires a massive amount of outer-touchness with the forums (to the existent its like they never even used em before) there really not the sort of people i think are gonna make good staff.
Good staff are the strong community figures. They also bridge the gap between staff and users so theres no real disputes.
The fact habbox needs a council now to do this shows how bad this has a really gotten?

All you staff, ARE MEMBERS, you used this forum before you were staff, you likely had friends etc before you were staff? Why now do you seem to think your so different?

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Most of our staff members are active at least somewhere on this forum, however the majority mainly stick to the staff only sections; whether this is a personal choice, or a pressured choice, is there to be decided.

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Staff only sections arnt for using a forum, there for running it. Why bother giving your own time to work on a community your not even part of? Nore, it seems even want to be part of. No wonder there's no community spirt anymore....

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PS: Oh yeah your comment about less users is totally off, sorry to burst your bubble :P January 3rd 2008 was the third most popular day on the forum since June '07. And users are at their average levels. (I sort of have the advantage of ACP Stats, so I guess I kind of cheated :P)

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Id always thought it was still growing anyway so its no news to me. My main concern is the value of the members is far lower. Out of the online people these days, there are far less with anything worthwhile to say in my opinion. Quality's decreased dramatically, even if quantity's increased.

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Originally Posted by Adzeh

In my honest opinion I feel that the majority of the staff feel scared (for want of a better word) of posting on the forum, because they feel that they are going to be targetted by other users idiotic and confrontational nature, and simply find that they would rather post in the staff sections and save themselves the aggro. Most of our staff members are active at least somewhere on this forum, however the majority mainly stick to the staff only sections; whether this is a personal choice, or a pressured choice, is there to be decided.

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I personally hardly ever go in the spam forum because I always get flamed for being a bad mod or people constantly so called correcting my name. It just saves the trouble really. I am sure lots of people feel the same way about different sections but really unless they are part of the ''spam group'' then knowonw can safey adventure into the spamforum :O

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Originally Posted by Adzeh

I disagree completely, we still have a lot of members who can always be relied upon to offer a funny, meaningful, interesting, or well written post. I think it is a bit extreme to suggest our moderators give infractions for fun since most of the time, as with any job that requires a decision making process, they are 100% sure in their own mind that a rule is being broken.

If a moderator 100% believes that he or she is giving an infraction/warning to a user because they have broken the rules, then I have no quarrels with that. If the infraction turns out to be given wrongfully and is reversed, then I believe it is down to the forum management and super moderators to instruct as to why the infraction was reversed, and educate the moderators so that they do not make the same mistake again, and understand the rules better.

I am a firm believer in education and strongly believe that the best way to get desired results (in any situation, not just on this forum) is to go through any problems with the person in question, tell them where and why they went wrong, and instruct them on how to make the decision a lot more valid next time around. In my opinion there isn't enough of this taking place, and I am now convinced myself that I need to raise this point with the general mangement.

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I think that most mods , especially newer mods, ask supermods if they are not 100% percent sure. After a month or two they pretty much know most of it anyway but it's good to know that the supermods are looking out for you. Everyone makes mistakes though. You just have to learn from them. I have suggested each mod has a Smod tutor but J1MI said each Mod should feel like they can go to any mod which is a valid point but your specified tuor could well tutor you whereas otherwise they would have to deal with everyone etc.

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Originally Posted by nvrspk4

Call me what you will, but I believe that anyone who tries to compare this forum to the '04-'05 forum is simply comparing apples and bananas. The forum in the earlier years may very well have been better (actually it was a lot more fun, I know that personally.) However the reason that the forum is no longer so community oriented is because of the size its grown and the changing userbase.

In 2004 we had a much smaller community with a much friendlier and mature user base. As the years progressed, our user base has been augmented with large members of petty people, bullies, and people obsessed with virtual property. It is because of this, in my opinion, that what Habbox is has come to change. Now, it may not be the small community where everyone knew everyone and barely fought, however it's not all lost. But I think the view of some members have made it seem that way.

Many members who posted on this thread have posted constructively. However many of the complaints nowadays are really verging on ridiculous. You may think the forum is more complicated with its rules today (and it is) but the complication of its rules are actually in favor of the members. There was one time when I PMd a Super Moderator to ban somebody and he was like, well since its the first and two warnings but one infraction as opposed to two infractions and one warning and he listed off all these special cases that merit a certain ban. Due to the demanding nature of our current userbase, our moderators have to memorize and judge based on instructions that resemble a pilots manual, so many dials and switches and so much to remember.

Its quite frankly ridiculous. Next time you think the rules here resemble "Nazi Germany" and that we are too harsh now, consider this:

• On the 2004 forum, members were consistently banned for two fairly rude posts, especially if they insulted staff. On the 2006 forum they would be warned once and infracted once, possibly infracted twice.
• On the 2004 forum, members were often banned without a reason, a reason was emailed to them on request, and appeals were much less forgiving than they are today.
• On the 2004 forum, members has absolutely 0 warning as to how many times they had broken the rules. The only way to know, and what Admins based their bans on, was the number of posts they had had edited. All the posts they had ever had edited. So a search was needed to figure out how many times they had broken the rules.
• On the 2005 forum (I think it was 05) we used Usernotes. With usernotes, users had even LESS of a clue what was going on, because all of a user's rulebreaks were kept on a record that was not accessible to the user. Furthermore, moderators often weren't allowed to disclose the contents of a person's usernotes to that user. Bans would come out of nowhere, for 18 usernotes, 12 of which the user probably had no clue about.
• On the 2004-2005 forum, usernotes and edits never expired. Everything you ever did in your Habbox career was considered. No two month rule.
• On the 2004-2005 forum, management would simply ban troublemakers, not indulge them.

The years may be off, but the content is right, cause that's from personal exerience. The rules aren't stricter now. They're more complicated to provide more loopholes for members.

The amount members expect is immense. They expect a staff that is solely committed to making a perfect forum for them, with staff enjoyment of their job as a secondary. Habbox is not a business. Habbox is a venture for fun where its run by volunteers who give up their time to keep the community they love running. But often the community they keep running doesn't appreciate a single damned thing they do, and they're not even able to enjoy what they keep going. I could rant, and I would have a long rant, and I'd feel better, but in all honesty a rant would accomplish nothing. So, I'm not going to rant.



If its completely unlikeable I am not really sure why you're here. If you have absolutely no interest in Habbox and think its a lost cause, I'm sure you could better spend your time running your own site ;) I know how much you love to criticise us but come now.



That's what we did, 1000 rep = 1 rep power. We're, as has been said, looking at the other numbers again.



I agree with you. I love arguments. And you could definitely have arguments. The thing is, those arguments have to be mature, and as you said not ruin someone else's thread. No matter what you say, the vast majority of this forum cannot have a mature argument without it spiraling out of control. Well, if not vast majority, at least the majority. It's a shame that there can't be civilized arguments, but its really because of the situation.



Your changes to the rep system seem similar? Are you saying that the numbers were too high or are you suggesting a different approach? (Not trying to be confrontational, I'm genuinely trying to understand :P)

Also, the hierarchy of the rep power and the bullying and *behind*-licking that came with it were major reasons why we were forced to make changes.



I could see that happening, I give it a 50/50 chance. It depends how members react to it. There's a possibility they will actually recognize it, and there's a possibility that they'll forget it exists, or because every single thing they want hasn't been accomplished they might conclude that the council is ineffective.



Honestly, the reason is because the environment for staff outside of the protective enclave of the staff forums is less than welcoming. Mods are watched with a wary eye just as most of the administrative and management team are. The members seem to think that we belong working, not using the forum. There are occasions when I've made posts, and a member has taken it upon himself to tell me that I should be adding VIP instead. I would love to be able to engage in conversation more, however with the many many complaints I have to wade through I often don't have the time to post in the topics I would like to. Thus I get most of my debate in here :P Otherwise I would probably camp out in the debates forum for a good long time :eusa_danc

I should mention that while I make vast generalizations about our members, I do have a great amount of respect for some members, and its usually the ones who post intelligently. To be perfectly honest, I respect you if you speak in English, speak rationally, respect others, and make points because you believe them, not just to be annoying. That's really what I base my opinions of people on. I just wanted to clarify that I'm not calling all of you argument-mongering idiots :P



PS: Oh yeah your comment about less users is totally off, sorry to burst your bubble :P January 3rd 2008 was the third most popular day on the forum since June '07. And users are at their average levels. (I sort of have the advantage of ACP Stats, so I guess I kind of cheated :P)

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Thanks for making me read that -cri

For the red/bold text I agree. Like Jrh has said before, if it is so bad then why are you still here.

I have been also targetted similar to you before when posting going mad at me saying I should be sorting out a thread in soing so section. Staff are permitted to use the forum aswell, like someone said its voluntery

Excuse my spelling as I just woke up (:() and have a cracking headache.