Prisons are super harsh & reform criminals!

Printable View

Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page

05-07-2010, 07:28 PM
Nixt

Quote:

Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

I am suggesting that prison conditions be tougher in the first place (thus putting a great deal of many off the prospect of prison in the first place) and that sentences be made tougher the more they reoffend. It is not the job of the government to provide a prospect in life for these people, the rest of us get by and pay our taxes on virtually anything - criminals barely do that. I am confused by your opinion more so, because you are suggesting rehabilition which is nothing more than a chat and a talk with a criminal by an unknown offical which surely will not give them any prospects. Unless you are suggesting we provide criminals with cash grants and council housing, to which I would ask 'why should crime be rewarded?'.

The second point is not true, reported crime has dropped. A lot of crime goes unreported nowadays as the childrens representative on Question Time pointed out, therefore that does not indicate at all that crime has dropped.

I quite agree that prison sentences and prison itself should lose some of the privileges it currently holds. What are you doing though, in sending people to prison is hiding the problem temporarily, rather than addressing it head on. If reoffending is such a problem in your eyes, sending more people to prison is hardly going to help that problem. Indeed it may put some people off, but at the end of the day criminals will only try and find more effective ways to avoid criminals, or the nature of crime will adapt to the new system. Punishment should come hand in hand with rehabilitation. How you believe that should be done is obviously subjective. I don't think that should involve a simple chat with a probation officer - in my opinion rehabilitation should inherently be a punishment at the same time. I don't pretend to know what I would do, I don't pretend to know how I would do it but as far as I am concerned simply throwing people in prison is not a solution.

Crimes go unreported, yes... but it seems to make sense to say that if reported crime is going down, then unreported crime is going down hand in hand with that. Without solid evidence that is the only logical way to look at it. Unreported crime obviously takes place, but there is no solid way of saying if it's risen / dropped / stabilised and, as such, it's logical to say it has decreased with crime that is reported.
05-07-2010, 07:33 PM
Dinosaurawrr

my teacher chris was talking to my tutor kevin he works in a prison teaching them media.
they have cooking classes
have more musical instraments than the college
and they have knives for art............... with only one non officer in the room.
so yeah
05-07-2010, 07:54 PM
GommeInc

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jayme

I think most of you have missed the most important point completely.
We should be helping to stop people from committing crime in the first place, we need communities to join together and work together to fight crime.
We can't just rely on the morons we call the police or the government, because quite clearly they cannot stop crime, we need youth projects and REAL rehabilitation services to those who have become a victim of the times.
Think about it, what makes more sense, locking people up and letting them re-offend, or setting up projects and helping out deprived communities to stop crime at the first stage?
I'm from Middlesbrough, our crime record is high and we're a failing town to put it quite bluntly - set up projects and schemes for these teenagers and young adults falling victim to offending crimes.

Indeed, youth projects and community involvement is incredibly important - knowing who you're surrounded by and so forth. It works really well in villages in this area, and no dobut makes some people think twice. Of course it wouldn't eliminate the whole problem as life isn't that simple, but it does work :)

We should be looking at IFs. IF prison isn't working, assuming they are watched inside, then alternatives could be looked at. Or, perhaps the way prisons treat prisoners could looked into? Insider counselling, making them acknowledge the crime and what they did. Annoyingly, we do not really know what happens inside, as TV only ever dramatises it and the media is too brief on it.
05-07-2010, 08:25 PM
Swastika

Quote:

Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

After the war and before the modern day people didnt have a thing, especially kids - they didnt feel the need to smash up bus stops/attack people/form gang wars and all the rest. The excuse of 'theres nothing to do' is a poor one, often I have nothing to do yet I dont expect the taxpayer to pay for some entertainment for me to stop me turning to crime and violence.

Smashing up bus stops isn't exactly a despicable crime now is it? How on earth can you not agree that in THIS DAY AND AGE, not back in the times you keep talking about, that youth and rehabilitation projects work wonders? If you hit the nail in the head before the problem criminality starts, your doing something right and positive, what's the point in sending somebody to prison, waiting for them to come back out, they re-offend, and send them back? And repeat the process over and over again, there is just absolutely no point, we're just going to end up like the United States - where nobody can get an occupation or be accepted back into the world because of their past. Stop the problems before they start.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GommeInc

Indeed, youth projects and community involvement is incredibly important - knowing who you're surrounded by and so forth. It works really well in villages in this area, and no dobut makes some people think twice. Of course it wouldn't eliminate the whole problem as life isn't that simple, but it does work :)

I completely agree that it doesn't 100% fully stop crime because it doesn't - but it does help quite considerably right?
Youth projects and anti-gang centres would work wonders for inner city youths in Britain, the government need to really consider something like this otherwise our gang problems are just going to get worse and worse and before we know it, gangs are going to be the "norm" and accepted like some other countries in the world.

Stop the problems, before they start.
Start with the next generation, and help those who are in prison now.
06-07-2010, 11:04 AM
Nixt

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jayme

I completely agree that it doesn't 100% fully stop crime because it doesn't - but it does help quite considerably right?
Youth projects and anti-gang centres would work wonders for inner city youths in Britain, the government need to really consider something like this otherwise our gang problems are just going to get worse and worse and before we know it, gangs are going to be the "norm" and accepted like some other countries in the world.

Stop the problems, before they start.
Start with the next generation, and help those who are in prison now.

I quite agree. An area in Bristol - Henbury, was rife with problems to do with young people and gangs. Recently they set up what is called a "Youth Inclusion Project" near the centre of the problem area and it appears to have done wonders to reduce the problems that were occurring there. It won't solve all the problems but it most definitely helps.
06-07-2010, 11:15 AM
Hecktix

Quote:

I am not narrow minded, you are narrow minded i'm afraid in that what yourself and the left in general cannot grasp is that people have a choice when committing crime. The rest of us dont have to commit crime even when we are skint/in terrible situations, so why are these people any different? i'm sick to the back teeth of advocates with opinions the likes of yours caring more about the criminal than the victim - try living on a council estate where you are scared to walk out of your home at any given time, try putting yourself in the position of elderly and young people who are scared of going outside in fear of being mugged, try living in a neighbourhood where petty crime drives away jobs and opportunity.. I suspect the likes of Ken Clarke and yourself have never even experienced crime hence why you are determined to be so soft on the subject. Crime is a massive issue, it can ruin areas economically, socially and can trap people in those areas into a life of being on the dole in which their children then follow.

It is not about being heartless,it really is as simple as do the crime do the time.
Oh come off it, do you really think a criminal is going to care? of course not! because if they did they wouldnt commit the crime in the first place.

Oh so now we resort to baseless assumptions to support your argument, I have experienced crime in two instances - both rather violent crimes however at no point did I think the offender should go to Prison - and I laugh how you say I would care more about the criminal than the victim because in one of these cases I was the victim (but yeah don't worry I was more bothered about the criminal:rolleyes:).

The criminal in this case was given a fine of nearly £4000 and had to complete 200 hours of a community sentence and undergo six months of alcohol and anger guidance. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely hate this man to the bone - yet I'd pretty much say he wouldn't commit a crime similar to what he did to me and my family again.

When offenders are put in prison victims are not necessarily any safer than they were when the person was "at large" and then they have the fact that when the prisoner gets out they aren't gonna be rehabiliated and are likely gonna be incredibly pissed off that the victim caused them to go to prison (we all know that's not true but the mind of a criminal is different to the mind of a person that can think logically).

Criminals are of a different mindset to normal people and this is what needs to be targetted, by all means lock up the people that murder, rape and seriously assault people - as long as you're giving them rehabilitation in the process.

It's clear prison isn't successful and different means at preventing crime should be used for crimes in which the offender is not really a danger so doesn't need to be put into prison. You are one that often complains of this countries debt, slashing prison numbers and replacing prison with community sentences and a good bit of restorative justice or counselling would sure help out there - along with reducing crime dramatically.
07-07-2010, 03:12 PM
Hitman

help those who can be or want to be helped, lock those who cannot be helped or who are not safe to have on the streets at all.
11-07-2010, 12:08 AM
-:Undertaker:-
Quote:

Originally Posted by HotelUser

Yeah. Getting 100 tough angry men and locking them up for 20 years in one cell will make them less tough and less angry :S

Who said 20 in one cell? I could not care less if they are angry about being in prison, if they dont like being put into prison and the justice system then they should not commit the crime in the first place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nixt

I quite agree that prison sentences and prison itself should lose some of the privileges it currently holds. What are you doing though, in sending people to prison is hiding the problem temporarily, rather than addressing it head on. If reoffending is such a problem in your eyes, sending more people to prison is hardly going to help that problem. Indeed it may put some people off, but at the end of the day criminals will only try and find more effective ways to avoid criminals, or the nature of crime will adapt to the new system. Punishment should come hand in hand with rehabilitation. How you believe that should be done is obviously subjective. I don't think that should involve a simple chat with a probation officer - in my opinion rehabilitation should inherently be a punishment at the same time. I don't pretend to know what I would do, I don't pretend to know how I would do it but as far as I am concerned simply throwing people in prison is not a solution.

Crimes go unreported, yes... but it seems to make sense to say that if reported crime is going down, then unreported crime is going down hand in hand with that. Without solid evidence that is the only logical way to look at it. Unreported crime obviously takes place, but there is no solid way of saying if it's risen / dropped / stabilised and, as such, it's logical to say it has decreased with crime that is reported.

Prison isnt supposed to be a 'solution' to help these people, prison is supposed to be the last resort - we already try all leaner ways of stopping and preventing crime but many push it and push it until they end up going to prison. The difference is that with the system we have now (basically what you are in support of) and the one I propose; under the present system they are allowed to go rampant in terms of crime, ruining more peoples lives than need be - with my proposed system crime would still happen of course but many would be spared from the crime that is committed well past the time they have pushed it to the limit.

As for the bottom I guess so, but over recent years you must also take into account that a lot of people have lost faith in the police/the police cannot do much anymore - people are that put off nowadays that many do not even bother phoning the police in the first place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jayme

Smashing up bus stops isn't exactly a despicable crime now is it? How on earth can you not agree that in THIS DAY AND AGE, not back in the times you keep talking about, that youth and rehabilitation projects work wonders? If you hit the nail in the head before the problem criminality starts, your doing something right and positive, what's the point in sending somebody to prison, waiting for them to come back out, they re-offend, and send them back? And repeat the process over and over again, there is just absolutely no point, we're just going to end up like the United States - where nobody can get an occupation or be accepted back into the world because of their past. Stop the problems before they start.

I completely agree that it doesn't 100% fully stop crime because it doesn't - but it does help quite considerably right?
Youth projects and anti-gang centres would work wonders for inner city youths in Britain, the government need to really consider something like this otherwise our gang problems are just going to get worse and worse and before we know it, gangs are going to be the "norm" and accepted like some other countries in the world.

Stop the problems, before they start.
Start with the next generation, and help those who are in prison now.

How can you stop crime before it starts? people know crime is wrong. These people are not stupid, they are not deluded - they are criminals who know the law and decide to flout it. If they already know something is wrong, I cannot see how telling them again (which would cost an awful lot of money to the taxpayer with poor results) would or will do anything different.

We are acting as though we can change these people with a faceless offical sitting down and telling them it is wrong - many of these people have been cut off from their families because their families have told them it is wrong and want nothing to do with them because of it. If they will not listen to their family, why will they listen to a government offical telling them so?

As for these youth projects and the rest of it - why should taxpayers pay for utter scum to be entertained so that they do not go around smashing our [the taxpayers] houses? it's like blackmail.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oli

Oh so now we resort to baseless assumptions to support your argument, I have experienced crime in two instances - both rather violent crimes however at no point did I think the offender should go to Prison - and I laugh how you say I would care more about the criminal than the victim because in one of these cases I was the victim (but yeah don't worry I was more bothered about the criminal:rolleyes:).

The criminal in this case was given a fine of nearly £4000 and had to complete 200 hours of a community sentence and undergo six months of alcohol and anger guidance. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely hate this man to the bone - yet I'd pretty much say he wouldn't commit a crime similar to what he did to me and my family again.

When offenders are put in prison victims are not necessarily any safer than they were when the person was "at large" and then they have the fact that when the prisoner gets out they aren't gonna be rehabiliated and are likely gonna be incredibly pissed off that the victim caused them to go to prison (we all know that's not true but the mind of a criminal is different to the mind of a person that can think logically).

Criminals are of a different mindset to normal people and this is what needs to be targetted, by all means lock up the people that murder, rape and seriously assault people - as long as you're giving them rehabilitation in the process.

It's clear prison isn't successful and different means at preventing crime should be used for crimes in which the offender is not really a danger so doesn't need to be put into prison. You are one that often complains of this countries debt, slashing prison numbers and replacing prison with community sentences and a good bit of restorative justice or counselling would sure help out there - along with reducing crime dramatically.

So Oli, what do you class as rehabilitation?

I will hazard a guess that its one of these/a few of these put together;
- Social housing to keep them off the streets (in normal speak, rewarding them with a house courtesy of the taxpayer for their crimes).
- Social welfare to keep them above the poverty line (in normal speak, rewarding somebody who has done bad with money).
- A talk/councilling with a rehabilitation officer (in normal speak, a faceless government offical telling somebody who knows what they have done is wrong, that what they have done is wrong).
- Youth/community projects (in normal speak, my parents and many others across the country paying for bad kids/bad people to be entertained at my expense).
I complain about debt yes because the debt is out of control. I hate big government because history shows it does not work and its expensive. However I have outlined how you can cut down the cost of prison as it is at the moment (by spending less per prisoner as they do on the continent) and more importantly, sending people away for longer so that they will be less likely to reoffend which costs more in court cases/police time in the first place. The safety of the public is one of the big jobs of government and instead of spending billions on the EU/foreign aid/red tape +the rest of the utter rubbish we spend money on - spending it on keeping the public safe is well worth the money. We are a very wealthy country, the only problem is we dont spend it on what it needs to be spent on.

The criminal in your case is still out and about and will most likely reoffend again. Often a criminal has reoffended dozens or even hundreds of times before they are finally caught and dealt with. These people play the system, and theres no doubt in my mind that this man (whatever he did to your family) will do it again and again to other families.
11-07-2010, 03:47 AM
HotelUser

Quote:

Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Who said 20 in one cell? I could not care less if they are angry about being in prison, if they dont like being put into prison and the justice system then they should not commit the crime in the first place.

Each locked up individually is worse--lets just isolate them from the outside world AND from all social interaction completely!

Quote:

Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Prison isnt supposed to be a 'solution' to help these people, prison is supposed to be the last resort - we already try all leaner ways of stopping and preventing crime but many push it and push it until they end up going to prison. The difference is that with the system we have now (basically what you are in support of) and the one I propose; under the present system they are allowed to go rampant in terms of crime, ruining more peoples lives than need be - with my proposed system crime would still happen of course but many would be spared from the crime that is committed well past the time they have pushed it to the limit.

If prison was more of a solution to help these people then we wouldn't have recommitting criminals How on Earth could you say they wouldn't commit crimes in the first place if a lot of the people committing the crimes are mentally unstable and genuinely NEED help.

Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page