West to use possible military action against Gaddafi

It's blatantly an empty threat.

David Cameron's suggestion of establishing no-fly zone over Libya and arming rebels shot down by US and France.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...-libya-zone-us

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Originally Posted by xxMATTGxx

David Cameron's suggestion of establishing no-fly zone over Libya and arming rebels shot down by US and France.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...-libya-zone-us

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Whilst that's probably for the best... As discussed on Twitter it's a damn shame we no longer have a military capable of enforcing this by ourselves, we now have to rely on fairly unreliable allies due to our lack of an aircraft carrier. This is already becoming an issue despite only being scrapped a few months back, how on earth are we going to last 7 years till a new one is built. And even when it is built, we'll be sharing it with the trusty French. I should of been more vocal at the time but David Cameron's got it wrong here.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

So you'd be prepared to go and fight in Iraq/Afghanistan am I right?

A war is only worth it if you are willing to go yourself and in the knowledge that you may die in the process.

And also, in terms of getting rid of dictators - China next then boys? (oh no I forgot, China can defend itself and give us a smack in the face back!)



Are you planning to sign up anytime soon?

I'm always amazed that the people wanting to go sorting the business of other countries are the ones who happen not to be in the armed forces themselves/have their lines put on the line - why should we police the world, thats one of the exact reasons why 9/11 occured in the first place because the United States has military bases all over the world to sustain its 'empire'.

But morals aside also on whether you think we should or shouldn't, face the fact; the west cannot afford it.

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No, I'm not planning on signing up. People join the army knowing full well that they have to go into combat, So they should accept anything that comes their way.

I always find it mad how you ALWAYS have to win an argument on here, Were entitled to our opinions.

Why should I, Catzy or Robbie sign up to the army because we agree with this (I Don't fully know catzy's opinion on this btw). I'm sure all of us have higher asperations in life rather than signing up to the armed forces. People who do sign up for the armed forces fully know well what our goverments like, they are quite aware that they may have to fight, and are aware that they will have to go to other countries to fight.

I'm not so sure you would sign up to the army if there was a war for us to get out the EU. So don't bring daft and invalid points up in this debate. I thought we were bigger than the " my dads bigger than your dad" type of argument.

I beleive that, although it isn't anything to do with us, if we CAN help a country in need, then we should.

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Originally Posted by The Don

No, I'm not planning on signing up. People join the army knowing full well that they have to go into combat, So they should accept anything that comes their way.

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The whole point of the army and why people join, is the fact that you expect your government will not send you into harms way unless it is necessary. The situation in Libya however does not pose a threat to the national security of the United Kingdom, it has nothing to do with us.

You do not risk the lives of others in combat unless it is needed, and this is not needed.

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Originally Posted by The Don

I always find it mad how you ALWAYS have to win an argument on here, Were entitled to our opinions.

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Indeed, and the fact you wouldn't sign up shows me that your opinions aren't worth all that much concerning this.

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Originally Posted by The Don

Why should I, Catzy or Robbie sign up to the army because we agree with this (I Don't fully know catzy's opinion on this btw). I'm sure all of us have higher asperations in life rather than signing up to the armed forces. People who do sign up for the armed forces fully know well what our goverments like, they are quite aware that they may have to fight, and are aware that they will have to go to other countries to fight.

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Robbie as far as I can make out isn't in support of this, infact he posted lyrics which sum up my positon also; we are fighting for 'democracy' overseas while back at home we are destroying our own democracy/set of ancient liberties.

Higher aspirations.. well that to me seems like you know how dangerous the army is, and that somehow these people are pawns in a game which you can send across the world to enforce your opinions. If you yourself are not prepared to go and fight then it is simply not worth it, do not expect the children of others to die for a pointless cause which has nothing to do with this country or its subjects.

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Originally Posted by The Don

I'm not so sure you would sign up to the army if there was a war for us to get out the EU. So don't bring daft and invalid points up in this debate. I thought we were bigger than the " my dads bigger than your dad" type of argument.

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In the unlikely event that we ever had to go to civil war to declare our independence from a future European superstate (much like Libya at the moment trying to secure its freedom from the regime) I would fight and if I did not, that would suggest quite clearly that my words/opinions have been nothing but hollow nonsense.

I would fight for example in that kind of war/a Falklands type war which defends this country.

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Originally Posted by The Don

I beleive that, although it isn't anything to do with us, if we CAN help a country in need, then we should.

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If you agree with policing the world, by all means - sign up.

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"Naturally, the common people don't want war...but after all it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a parliament, or a fascist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country"

--Nazi General Hermann Goering

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Enough of playing on peoples fears and feeding them sob stories and enough of policing the world.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

The whole point of the army and why people join, is the fact that you expect your government will not send you into harms way unless it is necessary. The situation in Libya however does not pose a threat to the national security of the United Kingdom, it has nothing to do with us.

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I'm sure, actually, I know, a lot of members of the army, enjoy going over to other countries, fighting. They know what our goverment is like, they know the risks of being signed up, they didn't have to sign up, they should accept whatever missions our goverments give them.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

You do not risk the lives of others in combat unless it is needed, and this is not needed.

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It is needed. Innocent people over there are getting killed for diplomacy.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Indeed, and the fact you wouldn't sign up shows me that your opinions aren't worth all that much concerning this.

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You aren't willing to sign up, does that make your opinions worthless? no. So stop talking nonsense, you can have an opinion of a subject without having to participate.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Higher aspirations.. well that to me seems like you know how dangerous the army is, and that somehow these people are pawns in a game which you can send across the world to enforce your opinions. If you yourself are not prepared to go and fight then it is simply not worth it, do not expect the children of others to die for a pointless cause which has nothing to do with this country or its subjects.

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Yes, I know how dangerous the army is, hence why I wouldn't sign up, people who do sign up are fully aware of the consequences and the dangers and accept these.
It is worth it, the people signed up ARE prepared to fight, otherwise they wouldn't sign up. That's their job.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

In the unlikely event that we ever had to go to civil war to declare our independence from a future European superstate (much like Libya at the moment trying to secure its freedom from the regime) I would fight and if I did not, that would suggest quite clearly that my words/opinions have been nothing but hollow nonsense.

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You think that because it's not happening in england, we shouldn't help, that's a terrible way to think. We should all want what's best for the world, rather than just our individual nations.
I'm pretty sure if you saw an old lady getting mugged you wouldn't help as it's "nothing to do with you".

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

If you agree with policing the world, by all means - sign up.

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I agree with helping out countries in need, doesn't mean I'm going to sign up, sorry.
Much love.

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Originally Posted by The Don

I'm sure, actually, I know, a lot of members of the army, enjoy going over to other countries, fighting. They know what our goverment is like, they know the risks of being signed up, they didn't have to sign up, they should accept whatever missions our goverments give them.

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Some will yes, until they have their legs blown off - if you want me to focus more on the financial aspect then I will, the financial aspect being 'why should the debt-ridden British taxpayer have to folk out for another war which does not concern us?' Just because you have an army with some wanting to fight does not mean you send it around the world willy nilly.

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Originally Posted by The Don

It is needed. Innocent people over there are getting killed for diplomacy.

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You support going into China/North Korwa/Zimbabwe/Saudi Arabia + countless others then? the sort of places where people go missing overnight for simply expressing their views or being seen as a threat to the regime.

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Originally Posted by The Don

You aren't willing to sign up, does that make your opinions worthless? no. So stop talking nonsense, you can have an opinion of a subject without having to participate.

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Um.. yes it does. It shows you don't really believe in it, hence why you refuse yourself to go.

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Originally Posted by The Don

Yes, I know how dangerous the army is, hence why I wouldn't sign up, people who do sign up are fully aware of the consequences and the dangers and accept these.
It is worth it, the people signed up ARE prepared to fight, otherwise they wouldn't sign up. That's their job.

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They are prepared to fight (like every other army) but that does not mean you send them into harms way for the hell of it.

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Originally Posted by The Don

You think that because it's not happening in england, we shouldn't help, that's a terrible way to think. We should all want what's best for the world, rather than just our individual nations.
I'm pretty sure if you saw an old lady getting mugged you wouldn't help as it's "nothing to do with you".

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So you'd support invading the likes of China, North Korea etc would you? what makes me laugh is that now the western political class has suddenly jumped on the democracy bandwagon you believe that we actually care about democracy in those countries when in reality we were the ones propping up Gaddafi for years and years.

Why should our people expect to die for a) the internal affairs of another country & b) a hypocritical foreign policy which has only been changed in order to make the west look good.

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Originally Posted by The Don

I agree with helping out countries in need, doesn't mean I'm going to sign up, sorry.
Much love.

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But you don't believe in helping them via military means, hence why you would refuse to sign up if there was an intervention in Libya tommorow. 'I believe this this and this.. but its the job of others to enforce it for me while I sit back' - thus proving you don't really believe in it at all. A political example would be the 'eurosceptic' Tory Party, which says its eurosceptic/defender of sovereignty but often signs away our sovereignty.. well its not eurosceptic then, is it.

I would have thought we'd have learnt by now after Iraq and Afghanistan.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Some will yes, until they have their legs blown off - if you want me to focus more on the financial aspect then I will, the financial aspect being 'why should the debt-ridden British taxpayer have to folk out for another war which does not concern us?' Just because you have an army with some wanting to fight does not mean you send it around the world willy nilly.

So, because you've lost the argument based on the subject of troops willing to go in and fight, you've moved it to the finacial aspect. Ok.

You support going into China/North Korwa/Zimbabwe/Saudi Arabia + countless others then? the sort of places where people go missing overnight for simply expressing their views or being seen as a threat to the regime.

North korea are over there starving to death anyway. Also, aren't we aiding south korea against north korea?

Um.. yes it does. It shows you don't really believe in it, hence why you refuse yourself to go.

Again, I do beleive in it, otherwise I wouldn't see it. The army is not my chosen profession, hence why i'm not joining.

They are prepared to fight (like every other army) but that does not mean you send them into harms way for the hell of it.

It's not for the hell of it. And we were talking about establishing a no fly zone and arming the locals, that's not really in harms way?

So you'd support invading the likes of China, North Korea etc would you? what makes me laugh is that now the western political class has suddenly jumped on the democracy bandwagon you believe that we actually care about democracy in those countries when in reality we were the ones propping up Gaddafi for years and years.

I would suport that, yes, although I don't beleive we are capable of winning, so no, it would be a stupid move to go other there.

Why should our people expect to die for a) the internal affairs of another country & b) a hypocritical foreign policy which has only been changed in order to make the west look good.

A) is already happening in iraq
B) because the policy is correct?

But you don't believe in helping them via military means, hence why you would refuse to sign up if there was an intervention in Libya tommorow. 'I believe this this and this.. but its the job of others to enforce it for me while I sit back' - thus proving you don't really believe in it at all. A political example would be the 'eurosceptic' Tory Party, which says its eurosceptic/defender of sovereignty but often signs away our sovereignty.. well its not eurosceptic then, is it.

Again, I can beleive in something without having to take part. being in the army isn't my chosen profession. I'm sure bankers, graphics designers agree with politics, they don't join in though as they aren't trained in that and that's not their chosen profession. They can, however, have an opinion on it.

I would have thought we'd have learnt by now after Iraq and Afghanistan.

It appears not.
xox

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(makes longer)

Dan when was the last time you went out and canvassed for UKIP/organised support and publicly demostrated/organised a demonstration against the european union. After all if you believe in it...........

Good on him tbh.