So you do support Sharia lawQuote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
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So you do support Sharia lawQuote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
I support a strong civilised justice system (ran by the state) that punishes evil acts, provides deterrence and which grants justice.Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingJesus
Haebus corpus, trial by jury, innocence until proven guity, the right of appeal, civilised but harsh prisons and the death penalty. Like we used to have.
All this means is that you're a dangerously violent person with no regard for the law or humanity, it doesn't make you some paragon of justiceQuote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
"Justice" in your view is just eye-for-an-eye punishment, and as we've seen from the last few responses you don't even care who administers the punishment, so no that is clearly not what you support (and when did we ever have "civilised but harsh" prisons?). You support damage for damage's sake.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
I have no interest in being viewed in a positive light by people who wish to allow murderers, paedophiles and violent criminals walk our streets.Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingJesus
Not at all, did I not repeat that I believe and *want* justice to be administered by the state?Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingJesus
My point is simply that once the state fails in its duty, then I naturally still want that duty carried out but it'll have to be via other means.
My view on punishment and justice summed up much better than I ever can.
Superb news but I don't think I've said that I want such people on the streets - and it's hilarious that you use that as an argument when you are stating yourself that you'd be fine with being a criminal murderer for the sake of your perverted view of justice
"We" You mean "I", our justice system is based on rehabilitation, not retribution. Nice try at twisting it though.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
Rehabilitation is to prevent the criminal from committing ANY crime in the future and to make them a functioning member of society; it is not to prevent them from committing specifically the crime they've been charged with. So your examples are false, the mugger who killed the granny (albeit unintentionally) is being rehabilitated to prevent them from committing any crimes in the future. This is a prime example of somebody who needs rehabilitation, a thief. If this thief is then educated whilst serving their sentence and receives encouragement to work for a living rather than simply taking what they can, we've gained ourselves another functioning member of society rather than killing them to quench your primitive thirst for blood.Quote:
Rehabilitation among murderers is a complete myth as those selected for rehabilitation, along with most murders in the first place are committed not by serial murderers but in fits of rage, anger or a long-standing personal grudge.
Those selected for rehabiltation in those circumstances are unlikely to kill again for the reason that they never intended to go on a killing spree in the first place, that the person they killed was a one-off event, ie a neighbour who they really really really loathe and despise and it boils out of control (the anger). Or a thief who ends up in a struggle with an elderly homeowner and ends up knocking them on the head leading to their death.
Your family member is dead, killing the perpetrator simply makes them a scapegoat by ignoring the problems in society which leads to people committing these sorts of crimes. Instead we should be aiming to tackle the causes of crime such as poverty, a lack of/poor education and neglectful parenting, as well as rehabilitating those that have fallen through societies cracks so that they can eventually contribute back to society as a law abiding, tax paying citizen.Quote:
But that isn't the point. The point is that my family member is DEAD via an unforgivable act of evil and I want justice for my family member or anybody for that precise matter. The person who ended the life of the one close to me should be punished (preferably via hanging in my opinion).
Those 'evil child-murderers' make up a negligible percentage of the overall population. The overwhelming majority of criminals fall into the petty category as opposed to the sociopathic, serial killing Ted Bundy categories.Quote:
Now if people like you want to 'rehabilitate' the likes of savage and evil child-murderer Ian Huntley, then so be it.
Back to an eye for an eye again, if you were to do that then you're literally no better and would deserve to face the justice system yourself.Quote:
But just think what people like me will resort to because I can tell you that if somebody I know is murdered and the murderer is let off then I will be seeking revenge in spades, and not just against the murderer but also those who failed to administer the just penalty for the taking of a life. Think Michael Caine in Harry Brown (the film) who I was cheering on throughout.
The fault is (for the large part) due to society. Most people aren't inherently evil sociopaths that kill for fun. It's easy for you to sit there and simply blame the individual without addressing the real issues.Quote:
Typical liberal-left mentality, that the fault is with society (ie everybody else).
No, the fault is with the one who committed the crime in the first place.
I'm kind of in between on peoples views on this. Akeam is right that, for most people, there is a much deeper issue involved and they didn't kill for the sake of killing. However, in few instances it can be proven that some people are just unstable or "against society" such as with those who killed Lee Rigby.
Anyway on the subject of Rolf:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkzxGr4Yx8U
i watched this funny vid with rolf harris
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3US5J8gDFQ
Well yes you have, if you don't believe in justice and punishment and instead believe that crime is a disease caused by poverty, abuse and whatever other ills then ultimately you absolve the criminal from the guilt of the crime itself and therefore have a weak justice system which believes in 'rehabilitation'. That's exactly what your side of the argument believes, as shown by The Don below, and increasingly what our politicians believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingJesus
My belief is that evil people should be punished and punished severely for making the lives of the good a living hell.
Increasingly it is based on 'rehabilitation' you are correct, which is why law and order is collapsing around this country.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Don
I'm sorry, but this is so naive it's impossible to even reason with it. Do you really believe thieves and nasty criminals don't know what they are doing is wrong in the first place? Have you ever come across a nasty person, a bully or somebody who treats others as dirt on their shoe? Let me tell you this: they know what they are doing is 'wrong' and they do not care. They don't give a damn about the family they've robbed, they don't give a damn about the pensioner they've stamped to death.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Don
But fools like you instead seem to show more compassion to the killer than to the victims. Incredible.
Astounding that you call a murderer a 'scapegoat' and that it is the fault of society that he took a knife and slit somebodies throat for a mobile phone down by the local canal. I'm absoutely speechless. No my friend, evil people exist and they prosper when good sits back and does nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Don
Indeed, which is why those 'petty' criminals (it is not petty when YOUR house is being robbed by a gang of men) need to be deterred from acting upon their evil thoughts in the first place, which you do by having a strong justice system which sets an example that if caught you WILL be punished for your actions which are entirely your fault.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Don
But why should it bother me? 10 years in a soft prison for seeking revenge on those who killed the one I loved? Worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Don
After all, you could simply 'rehabilitate' me. I'd play along with that ******** to get away with it.
Yes, it's all societies fault. It is the fault of society that two student in Hull followed a gay guy home and threw him into the River Humber and left him to drown. It is completely the fault of society that a yob threw a brick near my house a few years ago at a cyclist driving past which resulted in that cyclist losing his life. It's completely the fault of society that Jimmy Savile abused all them children. It's completely the fault of society that my neighbour and his wife were broken into in the middle of the night and had their property stolen that they'd worked for all of their lives. It's completely the fault of society that increasingly we're seeing helpless old people having their homes broken into by young men, and the young men leave not only with their property but not before stamping on their face a hundred times and battering them.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Don
People like you are so naive and make me so angry words fail me. Evil needs to be confronted head on, or we'll all lose.
Law and order is collapsing around the UK? Please, spare the hyperbole. Is that why our crime rates are the lowest in the past 33 years?Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
http://static.guim.co.uk/ni/13983624...vey-trends.svg
Rehabilitation has been proven to work, as reinforced by our falling crime rates, as well as other countries with Rehabilitation focused prison systems, such as Norway which has incredibly low reoffending rates.
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...ed-like-people
I guarantee that if we look at countries with harsh prison systems we'll find that their crime rates are far higher on average than those focused on rehabilitation. It's all good repeating uneducated rhetoric such as "lock 'em up and throw away the key" but it's simply unfeasible. Majority of criminals will eventually be back out on the streets and if we give them skills whilst they are in prison they will be able to become productive members of society once out, if we lock them up and treat them like dirt they're just going to go back out and commit more crimes because it's all they know.
Of course thieves know what they're doing, I've never claimed they don't. The important part is WHY they do it, not whether or not they're sentient enough to understand what they're doing. A large portion of criminals are career criminals, where they have little to no skills and resort to crime to survive. It's all fine and dandy saying "They know what they're doing! Why can't they get a job?" when in the EU threads you're arguing that it's hard for REGULAR people to get jobs, career criminals often come from deprived areas where jobs are sparse. Obviously people know what they're doing, but the way society is set up It's almost impossible for these people to escape from this vicious circle.Quote:
I'm sorry, but this is so naive it's impossible to even reason with it. Do you really believe thieves and nasty criminals don't know what they are doing is wrong in the first place? Have you ever come across a nasty person, a bully or somebody who treats others as dirt on their shoe? Let me tell you this: they know what they are doing is 'wrong' and they do not care. They don't give a damn about the family they've robbed, they don't give a damn about the pensioner they've stamped to death.
Not at all, of course compassion should be shown to the victims, but you're branding every criminal as though they're evil child murders, which, as we've already established, make up a tiny percent of the prison populace. I recognise that you keep using extreme examples to get your point across, but we're talking about the prison systems in general, they need to be set up in the most suitable way for the majority of prisoners. The average prisoner isn't Harold Shipman or Fred West, who are arguably irredeemable, the average prisoner generally comes from a troubled childhood, has little to no qualifications (almost half, 47% of the prisons population had no academic qualifications) and comes from a deprived household (64% of prisoners had been in receipt of benefits at some point in the 12 months prior to coming into custody).Quote:
But fools like you instead seem to show more compassion to the killer than to the victims. Incredible.
Woah, I don't remember that example, nor calling the murderer in that example a scapegoat, are you perhaps putting words into my mouth? If you would care to read what I wrote you would see that I said killing the perpetrator makes them a scapegoat as you're refusing to acknowledge the societal problems that has crafted that person into what they are. Of course the individual needs to take responsibility for their actions, they are the ones that did it, but it's not as simple as branding that person as evil and completely ignoring all the other factors that determine who we are as people. Evil people do exist, I'm not disputing that, but as I've put previously, they are negligible, the overwhelming vast majority of criminals are not sociopaths. Of the 3.7 million offences committed in 2013, only 550 of them were murders, that is a tiny percentage. Yet you want the prison systems to focus on harsh punishments in general, using that tiny minority as examples to somehow prove your point. The overwhelming majority of offenders can be rehabilitated; pointing out child killers doesn't paint a true representation of what the average criminal is.Quote:
Astounding that you call a murderer a 'scapegoat' and that it is the fault of society that he took a knife and slit somebodies throat for a mobile phone down by the local canal. I'm absoutely speechless. No my friend, evil people exist and they prosper when good sits back and does nothing.
Do you think the vast majority of robbers steal to inflict misery on others with ill intent? Doubtful, the majority of buglers are actually juveniles, stealing to support themselves because they think it's acceptable. There was a particular youtube video I watched the other day where this young African-American girl stole a purse from an old lady, knocking her over in the process. A passerby caught the young girl and the video was essentially of him holding her down, making a citizens arrest on her whilst waiting for the police to arrive. Do you know what the girl said to justify her stealing from this lady? "She can afford it, she's rich. She's eating at a restaurant!". She didn't try and steal that lady's purse to ruin her day, there was no malice, she simply thought it was acceptable to take what she wanted from the lady because she looked like she could afford to lose it. The fact that the thief assumed the woman was rich simply because she was eating at a restaurant highlights the sort of deprived background this girl comes from and how society has failed her. With correct parenting and education things like this simply wouldn't happen. Rehabilitation offers people like this a second chance, it gives them the skills that they should have gained but never had the opportunity to. Not all people can be rehabilitated, I don't doubt that, but the vast majority can and the system should be established in a way that those that want a second chance are able to earn one through prison workshops and education. Punishing them and not enabling them to better themselves will simply lead to them reoffending once released.Quote:
Indeed, which is why those 'petty' criminals (it is not petty when YOUR house is being robbed by a gang of men) need to be deterred from acting upon their evil thoughts in the first place, which you do by having a strong justice system which sets an example that if caught you WILL be punished for your actions which are entirely your fault.
Yes, it's all societies fault. It is the fault of society that two student in Hull followed a gay guy home and threw him into the River Humber and left him to drown. It is completely the fault of society that a yob threw a brick near my house a few years ago at a cyclist driving past which resulted in that cyclist losing his life. It's completely the fault of society that Jimmy Savile abused all them children. It's completely the fault of society that my neighbour and his wife were broken into in the middle of the night and had their property stolen that they'd worked for all of their lives. It's completely the fault of society that increasingly we're seeing helpless old people having their homes broken into by young men, and the young men leave not only with their property but not before stamping on their face a hundred times and battering them.
You're the naive one for thinking the world is some sort of Disney film with either evil villains or perfect law abiding citizens.Quote:
People like you are so naive and make me so angry words fail me. Evil needs to be confronted head on, or we'll all lose.