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Originally Posted by
-:Undertaker:-
I have not yet seen one Remain official admit to it.
Instead, like Clegg, they deny it as a delusion of eurosceptics when EU officials say it themselves.
So, no, the Remain campaign never claimed such a thing.
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It isn't "good" but at the end of the day you have to win seats in Parliament. That's our parliamentary system, and Ukip - through its own faults but also external events - could not do this where as other parties have managed this. But that doesn't matter as it has achieved its goals anyway through exerting pressure on a mainstream party to bring about its aims. I was a member of Ukip, but I am very happy with what we've done and achieved. It was never about the party or acquiring power for the party, it was about the country.
Right, true, but it's only like that because people like you refuse to move from a system which doesn't suit more than 2 parties. It shouldn't have to be a struggle to get representation. In fact, by saying it isn't good you've essentially agreed FPTP is a bad system but are either far too stubborn or too fixated on what was rather than what could be.
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Sure, but they'll have to take our laws into account. That's what happens when you export goods. I do not mind abiding by other people's regulations when selling in their country: but I do mind being ordered on my own regulations.
Yes and it's a good thing we're in a much stronger position.
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Things do change yes, and now the European Union has a currency, a central bank, a flag, an anthem, is setting up defense forces and is talking about a single treasury, having a single financial minister and EU-wide taxation. Oh, and eventual political union. Now I ask you, what do you define that as? That is building a state by any measure.
The currency doesn't concern us, a central bank relates back to the currency, a flag is used by lots of non-states, depends on the extent of these defence forces, next 2 make sense for the Euro and EU-wide taxation, well I'm not sure what you mean by that but I honestly don't see that happening if it's what I think it is. You also just used "talking about", I could talk about becoming King but doesn't mean it will happen.
You do have to recognise the Euro is very much a different beast so some of those makes sense. There's also no guarantee of us being part of anything further quite honestly.
You know, I'm not even necessarily trying to deny what people are trying to do, but quoting someone from before the EU existed really doesn't prove anything.
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Well now there's actually differences emerging thanks to the right-wing coup in the Tories and Corbyn's election.
The European Union is one, grammar schools, action in Syria, immigration is another and the replacement of our Trident nuclear weapons system. They're some pretty big differences now opening up between the two major parties.
But the differences don't matter since I believe as it stands, Corbyn would not get a majority next election so we could just see it go back to New Labour times so they have a greater chance of winning. The fact of the matter is, even if they are both different they're not the only options available and we shouldn't be needlessly limited.
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You haven't got me.
Say in a hypothetical country with proportional representation people are very angry and vote in a radical new party which manages to get over 50% of the vote which is very hard under proportional systems. Now, five years down the line that party - let's call it the Radical Party - is an absolute failure and is polling a mere 5% (which often happens in PR due to the fluid nature of it). The election comes, and the Radical Party polls 10%. Two other parties, the Communist Party and the Monarchist Party have won the most votes in the parliament with 22% of the vote each.
To form a government, those two parties who are the total opposites of one another will then have to form a Coalition with the much loathed Radical Party to form a government. They're hated. People ask why this party is still in power if it was so badly beaten. And why, despite only having 10% of a vote, it has so much influence on the government. Answer? Because it can blackmail the other two at anytime and bring the government down.
That's not a good situation to be in and I believe Italy is trying to move away from it because of unstable government.
You use Italy as an example, but looking they seem to have ~10 parties with 3-5 in government. It is ultimately in the second party's interest to not only stay in power too, but remain electable so they would not want to shit all over everything (for no better way to describe it atm). What you describe as blackmail is actually negotiation and that's a benefit of coalitions.
I should say I used to support FPTP for basically the same reasons until I saw that it actually kind of worked in 2010-15.
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The historical backing is between ourselves and the continent. It's also my belief for example that because we haven't got a written constitution that we've also avoided revolution and bloodshed: an unwritten constitution has made us much more fluid to response to societal changes and FPTP has - when there's a genuine sea change in public opinion - allowed us to throw an unpopular government out of office immediately.
Sorry, but that's not actually giving any historical backing to your claims.
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But voting for Ukip in those European Elections and the General Elections did work because I helped force the referendum which we went on to win. Without the external pressure of Ukip, the Tory backbenchers would've had a hard job.
No. Tory back benchers are the only ones who really pressured Cameron to put the election. Nobody running Leave even wanted UKIP support if I remember rightly. Again, I won't deny UKIP responsibility for the actual result I just see no evidence they were the force for the initial referendum.
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The Scottish, Irish and Welsh are a part of this realm - they're not colonies.
Right but I think a lot of their law and sovereignty changed when they stopped being their own countries :P Same goes for England I suppose. Also I'm pretty sure Wales was initially actually part of England after what I assume is after being invaded before splitting off again (can't be bothered to look it up tbh).
