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He's not doing that at all :S. Every time you post he replies with the fact if you want a democracy, you have to accept other people's opinions. He's said it like about a dozen times. Literally. You haven't proven anyone wrong anywhere and you never will by trying to persevere with saying denying the holocaust is equal to going to a funeral and laughing.Quote:
Originally Posted by SauravG
We have explained very clearly why it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergio
Let me use a more recent example:
You love your mum alot and cannot live without her. She gets bombed.
A man comes on tv and goes BOMB NEVER HAPPENED. ITS ALL A LIE.
You are saying thats not the same as laughing at a funeral?? It is :S Its destroying memories on your mum and making the way she died look better than it was. He is denying you of memories of her.
To me, that is the same as going to her funeral and going SHE NEVER GOT BOMBED :D SHE NEVER GOT BOMBED :D
1 word: empathy
All I can say to that is it's slightly more understandable for someone to disbelieve something that happened 60 years ago as opposed to something that happened very recently. I mean if a bomb goes off tonight, and I get up tomorrow morning and shout in the street that it didn't happen, I'm clearly just being a ****. However as I said a long time ago in this very thread, I'm assuming when someone denies the holocaust, they are doing it because they genuinely believe it did not happen, rather than simply to cause people grief.Quote:
Originally Posted by SauravG
If you really think about it, you only believe it happened because of what we're told and what our history books say. Countries have been known to rewrite their schools' textbooks to brainwash their children into believing what they wanted them to believe about their own country. I am lucky enough to have attended a talk by a holocaust survivor which was extremely moving so I obviously have no doubt it occurred.
But wait, I've gone completely off topic! The point is I accept other people's views if they genuinely believe an event did not happen. If they're just saying it to cause hate, then I don't think that's what freedom of speech is really about.
I'm sorry but there is more than one way to learn about the holocaust.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergio
There's so much evidence and proof it happened, it's like, it happened. It's like denying World War 2.
A long shot, but the same circumstances.
Denying the holocaust is not directly insulting somebody, so the exact same point still stands; denial of a historical event is not the same as racism/homophobia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardemax
Nothing is next darling, I will keep repeating what I have said throughout this thread so maybe it'll sink in for you; denial of a historical event is not the same as homophobia/racism.Quote:
Originally Posted by SauravG
You haven't proved anything wrong, when I said 'that isn't democracy then!' that was a pun, and thats been explained. Of course outright racism and homophobia shouldn't be allowed, that would be a anachism which I strongly disagree with, not to mention that it wouldn't work either.
First you said FoS should not be limited. Then you said FoS should be limited to avoid hatred. Then you said FoS should be limited to avoid homophobia/racism.
Make your mind up.
Are homophobia and racism not hatred now?Quote:
Originally Posted by SauravG
It is you who needs to make their mind up.
And destroying or whatever someones memories when theres proof of an event not causing hatred?
Denying the holocaust is not hatred therefore it is not comparable to hatred.Quote:
Originally Posted by SauravG
you didn't answer my questionQuote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
have a look at that post please then tell me
I have answered what was your 'question' and I have stated that homophobia and racism are not the same as denial of a historical event, the top two deliberatley go out to target two groups with direct hatred, whereas denial of a historical event is what it is, denial of a historical event.Quote:
you didn't answer my question
have a look at that post please then tell me
It's not going against gays, and I don't think it's going against a different skin colour. Yet it could be deemed offence.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
btw does the BNP want to get rid of the Irish?
For those claiming the BNP are not racist and should not be banned I would direct you towards the following links:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04QolIvfQEw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN8MZ...eature=related
It 'could be' deemed offence, i'm pretty sure if somebody gets that worked up over what Nick Griffins opinions are over the holocaust they have some serious issues and need to find something else to do with their time instead of taking offence at opinions that differ to their own. On your point, stop worrying what people might think or whether they will take offence, if they do they do, thats life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardemax
If you have different opinions in a free world then people will take offence, human nature.
They should not be banned as banning them would make you the facist.Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyDuo
So we've come off the whole idea of how it is wrong the deny the holocaust to it's just human nature?Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
Also to your second point, banning the Nazis and banning Mussolini would be deemed facist?
No, I am saying the left (such as yourself) need to stop stamping on freedom of speech in the name of people possibly being offended at something, stop wrapping us all in cotton wool. On the second point, if they did not commit violence/crime then yes that I would deem that facist, as you are doing the exact thing them two evil crackpots did when they got into power.
Apologies for butting into this conversation but, I don't think anyone is suggesting we wrap people up in cotton wool. We're talking about a group of people who's opinions hurt whole races of people. And no, this is not exactly the same as Hitler and Mussolini at all. Hitler and Mussolini did things much much worse than stop freedom of speech, and i'm sorry but nobody remembers them for their tyranny in stopping the free press and you know it. Not everything in life is as simple as 'free speech' for everything thats not violent or would hurt your feelings. Sometimes you have to think of others and i'm sorry but the BNP should not be spouting some of the crap they get away with.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
The jewish religion is not a race last time I checked. On the issue of Hitler and Mussolini, of course they did much worse things which begs the question of why they have been compared to the BNP in the first place. But I don't mind comparisons because thats how you learn from history, so did Hitler and Mussolini ban free speech? - yes. Are people in this thread proposing to ban free speech? - yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tash.
On your last point shows the hypocrisy of your argument, just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed.
Oh my god! Stop picking at small things. You know bloody well what she means! :eusa_wall :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
Just oh my God. The bold parts goes for EVERYONE including you. I think it's the most obvioust thing like... ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
Why have Hitler and Mussolini been compared to the BNP? I don't think I've compared them both to the BNP?
I don't see where I referred to the jews at all. I said the BNP's opinions discriminate against whole races of people, and they do. Nick Griffin is a racist, he does not like blacks in this country, nor does he like asian people. So I am really not sure why you mentioned the jews when you quoted me. You are the one who keeps comparing the BNP to Hitler and Mussolini when we're talking about freedom of speech also so you should maybe ask yourself why you keep comparing them.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
I am not the only one who disagrees with their opinions, this is not a personal vendetta against them its recognition of what the BNP are and stand for which is hatred and racism. I have not proposed to ban everything I don't agree with, there are many things I don't like but this is very different. Racism is not allowed person to person by law, nor is it allowed to be homophobic and yet the BNP manage to bypass these laws by hiding behind the freedom of speech facade. People like you are the ones who argue they should get away with it and it's pathetic. Freedom of speech is there so that people can speak out against oppression. You keep talking about 'the left' (which by the way you keep grouping me with, and thats laughable because you don't know my politics) trying to wrap people in cotton wool, but the 'right' which is what I presume you are proposes we let people spout racism. I know who i'd rather side with.
Surely if they are banned from making their views known future voters won't know their true agenda and will vote BNP for watered down policies they are aloud to talk about?
I am proud to live in a Britain where all people from different walks of life are welcome.. but I'd also be proud to live in a Britain where we can voice our opinions without being gagged or demonised..
I understand what you're saying but alot of the people who voted for the BNP in the European elections voted them because of their radical policies. That's the problem with letting them say whatever they want, especially in the current climate politically and economically, it's dangerous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan2nd
My best friend is Homosexual and I can tell you he would be HIGHLY offended if you were to deny thousands of what he considers to be his own people died in Death camps such as Treblinka or Concentration camps like Auschwitz.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
So by your theory should I be able to preach radical Islam? Should I be allowed to inspire racial hatred against the British people? Its my free speech.
Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
Ok you're an idiot. Do you know what Facism is? It's not oppressing freedom of speech. It's following an authoritarian and nationalistic political ideology. The complete opposite of what we are arguing. If anything call us Communists.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
I'm not sure why you said that, it came out of nowhere but "Jews" can either be a race or a religion.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
How ironick your signature is compared to our debate about the denial of the holocaust.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan2nd
So I'll put it to you, is it wrong to deny the holocaust?
While I totally disagree with what Nick Griffin has said I still think anyone British or not should have the right to express their opinionQuote:
Originally Posted by Ardemax
I'm talking for all races all genders all sexualities here when I say we should be aloud to express our views even if they are controversial.
and as far as I'm aware Help For Heroes has nothing to do with the Holocaust so I'm not sure how that makes anything ironic unless I've misunderstood what you have said?
Then it isn't racism. I can see people here are trying to turn it into a racism argument, when its about the holocaust and denial of historical events, not racism.Quote:
Originally Posted by SauravG
Yes they do, I don't agree that the holocaust was made up by the allies either, and neither do the vast majority of people in this country. I don't think you quite understand what i'm getting at, it may not be the same as our opinion but its somebody elses opinion so therefore our opinion of it shouldn't and doesn't make it wrong for them to let their opinion be known.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardemax
I'm not comparing the BNP to Hitler and Mussolini, i'm comparing everyone here who wants to ban them for holocaust denial the facists, because thats part of what facism is, banning free speech. On the right/left argument, you have just proved to me how the left groups all the right (Conservatives, UKIP etc) with racism, homophobia, xenophobia to try and tarnish the right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tash.
The right merely sticks up for freedom of speech and freedom, thats why we allow socialist parties like Labour, Liberal Democrats and other parties to exist and operate in this country, whereas in socialist countries all Conservative aka right wing parties are banned.
Could not agree more, thats why we fought two world wars against draconian and evil European powers for freedom and democracy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan2nd
THAT-IS-DEMOCRACY-IN-ACTION.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tash.
I'm gay and I don't consider gay people my own people, i'm sick to death of militantism among the left which groups everyone together and creates division. To be quite frank, your friend needs to stop putting himself and his own opinions over democracy.Quote:
My best friend is Homosexual and I can tell you he would be HIGHLY offended if you were to deny thousands of what he considers to be his own people died in Death camps such as Treblinka or Concentration camps like Auschwitz.
My policy would be that as long as you are not intructing people to go and hurt others, then yes you would be allowed to preach it. However we are not talking about the BNP in general and hate, we are talking about denial of the holocaust.Quote:
So by your theory should I be able to preach radical Islam? Should I be allowed to inspire racial hatred against the British people? Its my free speech.
You have just contradicted yourself before your very eyes, authoritian is supressing freedom of speech, thats what authoritian is, you know.. like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Lenin and all the other nutters?Quote:
Ok you're an idiot. Do you know what Facism is? It's not oppressing freedom of speech. It's following an authoritarian and nationalistic political ideology. The complete opposite of what we are arguing. If anything call us Communists.
The jewish religion and it followers are not a race, therefore bringing racism into an argument about denial of the holocaust is diverting the subject.Quote:
I'm not sure why you said that, it came out of nowhere but "Jews" can either be a race or a religion.
Racisim or discriminating against a religion, not much of a difference if you think about it.
Denial of the holocaust isn't discriminating against a religion. It is questioning whether or not the holocaust occured and whether or not it was part of Allied propaganda - history is there to be questioned.
So it's alright for an opinion to offend someone?
So can I deny World War 2?
Can I deny that there was no such period as the "Victorians"?
It's just so obvious they didn't happen.
Yes. You finally grasped it after about 20 pages of thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardemax
Right. What you've just said to me is that im allowed to deny any historic event and broadcast it to the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergio
Is this correct?
YESSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardemax
No I haven't because "Authoritarian" is not suppression of freedom of speech, in an authoritarian regime there can be suppression of speech but that is not what it means.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
"Authoritarianism is a political system controlled by nonelected rulers who usually permit some degree of individual freedom"
You are wrong. The Jews are a race and the Nazis treated them as a racial group which is why even if they weren't Jewish by faith they were still ruthlessly murdered because they were Jewish by race. They also believed that Jews could be identified by certain physical characteristics such as a large nose. So no, racism is NOT the wrong term to use.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
Ok so you're comparing me and my views to Hitler and Mussolini now? That's much better. As I have said several times, the banning of free speech is only one tiny miniscule thing that Hitler and Mussolini did. It is by no stretch of the imagination the worst thing, and it did not lead to them committing any of the atrocities they did.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
The left do not try to make the right look racist, homophobic or xenophobic, i'm sorry but the groups on the far right do that all by themselves. I have no firm political standing, and yet I still think that parties such as the BNP and UKIP have what you might say are racist policies. That is my opinion on them anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
There honestly was no need for you to type that part in capitals and bold either.. it's quite condescending actually. I'm aware that was democracy in action, but the point is they voted because of his racist policies. Nobody who is not racist themselves will argue that is right surely?Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
Again, that is dangerous. You're actually saying that you would allow radical muslims to preach either in person or via video link here in Britain and say that the western world is wrong and should be eradicated. This is all aslong as he does not expressly instruct them to go out and kill people? No way.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
As flyduo above has told you, Hitler himself considered the Jews to be a race. He said they had physical traits such as the nose, and personality traits such as being greedy and miserly which made them jewish. Plus this whole argument was supposed to include all aspects of the BNP so bringing racism into this is perfectly understandable seen as they are effectively a racist party.Quote:
Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-
I'd also like to point out that its not only that Hitler considered them to be a race, they are a race. They are descended from Jacob and originate from the Israelites I believe (Correct me if I'm wrong).
But if it's homophobic or racist, I can't say it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergio
How can '??? didn't happen' ever mean 'I hate gays' or 'I hate blacks'? :SQuote:
Originally Posted by Ardemax
For this we must call on history, Black History and Gay Rights, as you may put it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergio
But if you're so keen on freedom of speech, how come your friend even said if it's homophobic or racist, you can't say it?