If I recall correctly you were taking the piss out of HER teeth
If I recall correctly you were taking the piss out of HER teeth
I really think the current moderation on this forum is awful. With few exceptions, I find the moderators to act like self-righteous sixteen-year-olds. I don't understand why they think they need to have such obsession with the most minor pseudo-rulebreaks when they are moderating a forum like this. This is not the parliament, this is a declining Habbo fansite forum. Do these moderators realise that they are creating plenty of their own work — perhaps on purpose — by being haughty and snippy? Honestly, when I read "who are you to tell Martin and I what to do" I nearly cringed. Who do you think you are? She was suggesting something in a fairly polite manner and you act like you have just been told to chop off your arm.
Really, this forum definitely needs moderation and there have been great moderators in the past and there isn't a total absence of good moderation currently. Rather, it seems as HxF has shrunk the pool of applicants has changed from people who want to help to people who want to feel powerful and have a cute userbar. Your job isn't to obsess over and micromanage every single post that you think may break a rule. Your job is to keep the forum in line and keep obvious rulebreaks off.
I don't think the moderation has gotten worse or better - in years. I think the proportion of the userbase that's most vocal has been getting steadily older and been enjoying more and more liberties as years have gone by, meanwhile what these guys has forgotten is that whilst they don't rear their heads very often there are:
a) Hundreds of lurkers - No doubt of a younger more sensitive age
b) A younger user-base in the habbo section, who probably occasionally look around elsewhere.
The rules have to be setup to fit everyone, this is why swearing is not allowed (And I'm glad as it breeds an environment where everyone's constantly chucking swear words around for no reason) and it's why rules which seem strict for what you're using the forum for is not inappropriate for everyone.
And in fact the most horrifying thing of all is that in the cases where a moderator is at fault (It does happen, but lets not pretend it's happening more than it has before) people are just about refusing to use the pre-established system for reporting bad moderation/incorrect decisions or whatever (aka PM Scott, Brandon or make a thread in the support forum) and instead decide they need a feedback thread so they can slander volunteer moderators and complain about a broken system they refuse to use to the full extent.
You know, it's great that people are giving up their time to be 'volunteer moderators' but certainly you understand that this is quite a coveted position? HxF has never needed to beg anyone to step up and be a moderator — there has been fierce drama and competitive action in past decisions within the moderation department. The problem is that we cannot sugarcoat the fact that there are moderators who simply aren't doing a good job by saying 'Oh, you know, they are a volunteer! They give their time!' The fact is they are having quite a playdate as moderator on HxF and if they were so disconcerted with it they are free to resign. That is the whole point of being a volunteer, you know? You can leave whenever you want. There is no paycheque to lose. That being said, when you volunteer for something like this you need to do the job properly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chippiewill
Let me put this in to perspective. I volunteered at an elderly care home for three years. I won't try to come across as some angel about it — I did it because school required volunteer activity. Over those three years, though, my great grandmother declined in health and entered a different care home and that is when it hit me how important volunteers can be to these people. If you are going to volunteer to do something, you'd better put your effort in to it. Volunteering isn't to make you look good, to say you did this to show how caring you are or to appease relationships. If I was to act at the care home like some moderators act on this forum I hope to goodness I would be sacked in quick time. There is a big difference between a care home and this forum but there is an astonishing common element. They are both places where lonely or secluded people have a social outlet.
Really, I don't think that every single thing that moderators do here is terrible. There are great acts of moderation and there have been great moderators over the years but I don't agree that things aren't getting worse. Things are definitely worse now. If what you say is true - that users are getting older and more vocal - then praise be to that. I would much rather be on a forum where issues are addressed by people who can communicate than a forum where the users are completely in their preteens and unable to hold an argument with a more senior moderator. I am not sure if you realise just how busy Scott and Brandon are but I would rather that the moderators simply stop making so many grave mistakes as opposed to leaving users to contact management to complain. What kind of reflection is it on a forum when users are forced to complain about the people who are supposed to keep the forum in line on a weekly basis? Just look at how many times incompetency in the moderation department has been brought up in the Feedback section over the past while.
I agree with you on different things. I do agree that it is a broken system. No disrespect meant, but the people to fix the broken system aren't strictly the management team. Matt, Scott and Brandon are not much different than many people on this fourm. None of them have special years of training in social policy or human resources. They are young adults just like many of the users on this forum and I believe the best fix would be decided by people who are dedicated to the betterment of the forum. Why do you think Habbo uses Uservoice? They are a professional, giant company. They have education, intelligence and talent under their wings working for them every day. Why do they need a thirteen year old to give them ideas? It is simple. Moderation, management and leaders are wonderful and necessary but they can't give the answer to everything. Action has to be taken by a greater group.
Not sure why you think you needed to write a two paragraph essay on a three word comment, I did not imply that it was not important for moderators to do their job. What I am very seriously against is the abuse and slander that they have been publicly taking in recent weeks, e.g. chris. which is completely unecessary. You have a problem with a specific moderator take it to the complaints forum, you have a problem with policy, PM Scott then PM Matt.Quote:
Originally Posted by jasey
I'm not exactly sure how you get to say there have been great moderators over the years as an account of age 4 months.Quote:
Originally Posted by jasey
I think you misunderstood what I meant by vocal, vocal means the only people talking in the feedback section. All of the other users, the users you're ignoring and haven't noticed are sitting in the habbo section, either lurking or making very occasional posts. They're there and we need them for the forum to survive. And as far as I'm concerned they are more important to the long-term survival of the forum than the oldies. This isn't even a pre-teen issue, this is an issue with the fact that the vocal forum demographic is now 16-22 Years old where the habbo demographic is 12-17. It's not compatible.Quote:
Originally Posted by jasey
It's been brought up recently because people are in a moaning mood over moderators at the moment, things come in waves, so when people get warnings for stuff they disagree on but actually the moderator is marginally justified and they remember that feedback thread they see it as a reason to create another thread. Correlation does not prove causation. And I'm going to be honest about the "busy" issue because there isn't much to say about it, forum management do much less than they used to. Jamesy two years ago did everything that Scott does and still had enough time left over to do stuff like creating styles and coding them and be far more engaging on forum issues. I am however appreciative of the fact the Scott is a busy person outside of Habbox and I do not expect him to be on the same level, but if he does not have the time to be the forum manager which involves managing complaints and such then he shouldn't be doing it all. Moderation is just as good/bad as it was one/two/three years ago and arguably better than prior to that when you could receive infractions for double posts.Quote:
Originally Posted by jasey
People always forget that the people who reply in feedback threads are dedicated to the betterment of their corner of the forum, not the whole forum. You cannot go by the people in this thread for a representative selection of the entire forum demographic.Quote:
Originally Posted by jasey
They use uservoice because they want to pretend they care because if the consumers think they care then the consumers will buy more furniture, uservoice ideas are not exactly implemented often.Quote:
Originally Posted by jasey
^ To add on to what you have said jasey, I wouldn't say the moderators are to blame and are at the front of the problems - I think management make it difficult for them, because there does seem to be a lack of "management" going on. Addressed in one other thread was the fact that there is no actual Forum 'Manager', and decisions have to be made at a much higher level by people who either do not know about the forum demographic (blame the older, active members - care about the inactive, non-existent, younger, newer members).
A few months ago the in-famous quote: "We want mature discussions" comes to mind. What they actually mean by this is "restricted/formal" conversation. When people come online they want to escape the real world and all it's formalities, and for some reason Habbox has always hindered itself by not taking full control of the idea that maybe people do not want to be serious. It's not just a moderation problem, but a problem with the entire website - from a management level downwards. It wouldn't surprise me if it is a problem with the co-owners, who are not present the majority of the time, because when Jin is online (sierk apparently has zilch to do with Habbox) he seems to mention this really difficult to work around philosophy that Habbox must be a place for serious, mature discussions - when maturity could mean anything. The current approach seems to be to avoid common sense, where the forum atmosphere is made negative by odd decisions which go against how people naturally act. It's been said for years that the word "context" means nothing on here, and people could be made out to be offensive when they are most likely joking. It's sort of a "guilty until proven innocent" scenario.
Also, it too annoys me when you comment on the way things are run and you get the response: "and what makes you think you can tell us what to do?" When you get that, you know you've won the argument, because if they cannot give a better reason than that then they're clearly frustrated. Anyone can comment on the way things are run here. You're providing a service, and if it falls behind the expectations of the members of the forum then they are at liberty to comment.
I can totally respect your opinion but I kind of lost track when you thought it was weird for me to put effort in to an answer and then continue to write a post longer than the one you said was too long. This is the part that really struck me, though. I don't think I am any more special than anyone nor do I discredit you for not knowing me personally but I do kind of respect you less for pulling a card like that. I have been using Habbox and Habbox Forum for a long time. This is a fairly new account as I took a long break around the time of the merge, and of course, I have had previous bans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chippiewill
Don't let that lead you to think I don't watch what goes on here. Habbox was the first fansite community I ever got involved in and I have been part of the site whether by spirit, as staff or as a regular poster for the greater part of a decade. Cheers, really. In any case, I don't want to turn this thread in to a debate between you and I because I really do respect your views and understand what you are saying. Perhaps, though, you could next time be less one-track minded about how long you 'think' I have been here. I am old enough and have played a part of the community for enough time to earn my right to an opinion like I gave.
I don't know what to say, really! I know we don't always mesh on political issues in the Current Affairs area but I definitely agree with everything you are saying here. More than anything, I admire how you are able to get thoughts across and I think that you kind of put what I was trying to say in to something more understandable. I absolutely agree! I will be rating that post up.Quote:
Originally Posted by GommeInc
Give me some examples of the ‘abuse’ and ‘slander’ which moderators have been publically taking. If you are referring to my posts in the welcome back martin thread/various other feedback threads then you really need to get a grip. If moderators can’t handle criticism then they shouldn’t be volunteering for a role in which they have to ‘police’ other users nor should they act hastily and modwarn the hell out of posts because a comment might potentially cause offence when in reality half the time very little offence is taken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chippiewill
I guess it’s completely out of the question that he may have used a different account in the past?Quote:
I'm not exactly sure how you get to say there have been great moderators over the years as an account of age 4 months.
I completely disagree, There are equally as many non-habbo related subforums which bring in a rather large percentage of the activity here at Habbox. Also the younger userbase are generally unreliable and don’t stick around which is why Habbox should focus on maintaining its older, dedicated users who consistently post as well as the various younger users.Quote:
I think you misunderstood what I meant by vocal, vocal means the only people talking in the feedback section. All of the other users, the users you're ignoring and haven't noticed are sitting in the habbo section, either lurking or making very occasional posts. They're there and we need them for the forum to survive. And as far as I'm concerned they are more important to the long-term survival of the forum than the oldies. This isn't even a pre-teen issue, this is an issue with the fact that the vocal forum demographic is now 16-22 Years old where the habbo demographic is 12-17. It's not compatible.
A wave of complaints would indicate that there are faults with the system as they are coming from separate users, it isn’t just an anomalous user making all these complaints, heck we even have one member who is arguing with a moderator’s decision when it was made to ‘protect’ them.Quote:
It's been brought up recently because people are in a moaning mood over moderators at the moment, things come in waves, so when people get warnings for stuff they disagree on but actually the moderator is marginally justified and they remember that feedback thread they see it as a reason to create another thread. Correlation does not prove causation.
It seems that users on this forum consistently demand professionalism while also demanding informality. Not that either request isn't legitimate, my point is just that while everyone complains that Habbox acts too much like a corporation they simultaneously treat the management like corporate management. They have come to enjoy the fact that they can hold management accountable. That in my opinion is what has always made Habbox stand apart. Yes, the moderation is more formal, but you also know that a dispute with a random person who's dating the manager is not going to get you blacklisted from the entire site. Obviously there are a few notable exceptions to that but they are minor compared to what happened at other sites, because professionalism has always been a key part of the Habbox culture.
I'm saying that there are two sides - one asking for professionalism and one asking for informality, but a lot of Habbox's success is built off of its professionalism and members have come to enjoy the benefits that accompany said professionalism while simultaneously complaining about the corporate-like feeling of management. I'm not saying that the current moderation issues are not a problem - I know nothing about them. All I am pointing out is that since this seems to be a discussion on the larger direction and philosophy of Habbox, it's important to remember that being slightly more formal is a large part of what put (and kept) Habbox on the map.
As far as the argument about whether Habbo is central to the site, Habbo is what gets us new members, the other forums are what keep them. Yes we have a large number of users who don't touch the Habbo forums but they came here either almost always because they were Habbo users first, or because they were brought on by a friend. This site has to continue to revolve around Habbo, otherwise what is its purpose? A general discussion board? Why join this one?
Also moderators absolutely do receive abuse, they always have and they always will. I agree its part of the job, but you have to acknowledge that it happens.
I think that you make clear your opinion but we must regnogise the indisputable fact that management styles are not broken in to a dichotomy. You can be a moderator without being informal while also not being a micromanaging, frustrated office cubicle type. There is a balance. Of course, it would probably be impossible to get the balance directly in the middle because not only is this sort of thing not quantitative but people have different opinions on which side of the 'middle' the needle should fall. I can guarantee you, however, that the majority of the forum wants neither a slacker, hazy and incapable moderator nor a stick up your rear moderator.Quote:
Originally Posted by nvrspk4
I respect your view and I agree that Habbox — specifically HxF — was definitely a very professional site at various times throughout its history but it is not now. There is a noted increase in complaints about moderation and it doesn't take more than half a brain to realise that even management is having trouble with certain moderators. There is definitely a problem in the moderation department right now and that is because the system, as Chippiewill noted, is broken. The blame falls on no one. I have gotten to know the main actors of management on the forum just as many others have and I believe they work very hard. Really, very hard. You kind of express my sentiments exactly when you say that Habbox is known for its professionalism with notable exceptions. Let's call this past while a very notable exception.Quote:
They have come to enjoy the fact that they can hold management accountable. That in my opinion is what has always made Habbox stand apart. Yes, the moderation is more formal, but you also know that a dispute with a random person who's dating the manager is not going to get you blacklisted from the entire site. Obviously there are a few notable exceptions to that but they are minor compared to what happened at other sites, because professionalism has always been a key part of the Habbox culture.
I definitely agree with you there. I know plenty of us have been on Habbo for a long time, perhaps since near the start, and have seen the slew of fansites that popped up. The biggest falls that I can think of when it comes to popular fansites (although I won't give names) have been because of a distinct lack of professionalism. That being said, it certainly can go the other way! There is such a thing as too much of a good thing and people are beginning to note it. Not all communcations online are very clear and when someone says that the moderators are 'too nitpicky and corporate', that doesn't mean that they believe they should be the polar opposite. They just want it toned down a bit. At one point following the release of the fast food exposé film 'Supersize Me', McDonalds was under pressure to be 'more healthy' because of the picture the hugely popular documentary painted of them. They didn't replace their whole menu with salads and carrot stick fries but rather offered a bit of a balance to be more in the middle. That applies here as well — almost no one is asking for one extreme to replace another.Quote:
I'm saying that there are two sides - one asking for professionalism and one asking for informality, but a lot of Habbox's success is built off of its professionalism and members have come to enjoy the benefits that accompany said professionalism while simultaneously complaining about the corporate-like feeling of management. I'm not saying that the current moderation issues are not a problem - I know nothing about them. All I am pointing out is that since this seems to be a discussion on the larger direction and philosophy of Habbox, it's important to remember that being slightly more formal is a large part of what put (and kept) Habbox on the map.
I agree again wholeheartedly with your note that Habbo is what brings new users and the general discussion is what keeps them around. It is just fact, though, that HxF is no longer as popular as it once was. This forum was once viewable on lists of the top ranking forums on the entire internet. This has nothing to do with Habbox and more to do with the decline of fansites in Habbo culture and even Habbo itself. This is a huge change, though, and it can't be ignored. The majority of the posts on this forum are made by longtime users who post almost exclusively in general discussion areas. New members attracted by the premise of this being a Habbo forum rarely stick around or post much.Quote:
As far as the argument about whether Habbo is central to the site, Habbo is what gets us new members, the other forums are what keep them. Yes we have a large number of users who don't touch the Habbo forums but they came here either almost always because they were Habbo users first, or because they were brought on by a friend. This site has to continue to revolve around Habbo, otherwise what is its purpose? A general discussion board? Why join this one?
The shift for Habbo news has moved elsewhere. Everything is more open than it was four years ago. It isn't much of a secret when there is new furniture or something else planned because it is posted on every other bigger fansite at nearly the same time either as a release from something like Puhekupla or Habbo via email or Twitter itself. The biggest portion of Habbo content on this site is users responding to new features with tiny opinions on whether they like it or not. You'd be silly to not note that the more in-depth discussion, bonding and thinking goes on outside of the Habbo section.
I do not believe for one second that this should change from being a Habbo fansite because that is still a great and unique part of what makes HABbox exactly why most of us grew to love it. Instead, I believe a few policy changes are needed to recognise the fact that posts and membership have changed more quickly than rules and operations have.
You know, nearly everyone with an opinion is going to receive abuse at some point on this site. There are plenty of disagreements in opinion everywhere. In fact, there are regular users both past and present that can say that they have received more abuse on this site than any current moderator or even a few put together. No one is really denying that it happens but rather these people are denying that it is anything more critical than a non-moderator getting abused.Quote:
Also moderators absolutely do receive abuse, they always have and they always will. I agree its part of the job, but you have to acknowledge that it happens.
There are individuals I can name that have done their share to help the forum and (shockingly) received little abuse while still keeping thing just as 'in-line' as other moderators. I don't believe people should be offending in the first place but it does happen. Quite simply, there are users with moderator privileges right now that, frankly, need to be evaluated. If moderators feel they are being abused, I believe the same rules should apply to them as anyone else. They may have a different job on the forum but the fingers on their keyboards are quite similar to the fingers on everyone else's keyboards.