oli / matt / agm team

I personally think that it shouldn't be about what's fair, not to promote one person but the other etc. It should be about who's best for the job, we're trying to make things work the best for habbox.

I know many of you will find that harsh but it's to the point.

For the department issue, thats that an assistant manager is for, they learn to be in a managerial role and over a month or two should be perfectly ready to take over as manager.

Sure you may lose great department managers such as Martin with news, but there were people ready to step up.

At the end of the day it is Jin's decision to who he wants to hire in his general management team. He can have his mother doing her stuff if he so wished, it's the perks about being the owner. This isn't the first time things like this have happened. Jrh2002 was brought it from no-where as radio manager when Adzeh quit in September 2007. Garion was brought in as news manager from no where in August 2009, why? Because people knew they could do a good job. As long as the right person is brought in, who has proved themselves in the past, then it's a go ahead. Management aren't always chosen in an internal hierarchal basis. I wouldn't start assuming the the current forum manager would be the next AGM of staff and what not, it could be someone completely different, but someone fit for the job. I think Oli's hiring was a good deed as it was when Habbox was in a dent, and with someone who knows their stuff in that capacity, Habbox was able to re-garner strength and lead itself onto the road to recovery.

As for the argument, that well why is someone who was a forum rebel management? Well, it's all about giving chances, for a time Ryan, when I wanted to hire you at news, general management would have nothing of it. Then eventually, Garion agreed and you turned out to be a very fine news reporter. Thing change, people change. I'm sure you weren't the same person you were 5 years ago. Adzeh used to be an elite scammer himself, a couple of years before he was management, that argument is pretty much pointless.

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Originally Posted by Catzsy

I have to say this is extremely unfair and not at all the truth - it is pure subjecture.
I am sure Oli won't mind me mentioning this but when he came back after being banned and applied to be a mod and was accepted I thought management had lost their marbles BUT how very wrong I was. He worked extremely hard in that role and deserved his promotion to Smod. Since then he has dedicated a lot of his time to positively contribute to Habbox in all senses of the word and has done a remarkable job of it. I am not going into the reason he was perm banned before but you have to consider who banned him and the fact that people do learn from their mistakes and mature as individuals.

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No one ever sees to believe me when I talk about myself in that manner.
However, I agree Oli is doing a fine job.

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Originally Posted by Pyroka

I have to say also that your post is an extremely biased point of view. Oli was a total rebel, and in anyone elses position they would not have ever been considered for a Moderator. That is like saying Minstrels (Matty) who has been banned so many times, applied for a Moderator & then went onto be a Forum Manager. He would never be given a Moderator role after being banned, and I'm pretty sure Matt hasn't even been perm banned (though I don't come on here much now so maybe you dealt that harsh blow a while ago lol). I mean you look at the list of requirements for applying for Moderator, Oli did not fit that role, he never would've fit that role in a million years due to his past & yet Habbox Management put it aside for him. Special treatment at best. I'm not denying Oli has done a good job, but there was simply no way he should've ever been given a Moderator job & further on from that.

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He was banned on minstrels and now has a new forum account.
I think I was here when Oli had just got unbanned, so I can't really speak about Oli's past. However, he has grown on me, when he was first made Acting AGM I hated him! (sorry) Like I said, he's grown on me though.

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Originally Posted by Grig

At the end of the day it is Jin's decision to who he wants to hire in his general management team. He can have his mother doing her stuff if he so wished, it's the perks about being the owner. This isn't the first time things like this have happened. Jrh2002 was brought it from no-where as radio manager when Adzeh quit in September 2007. Garion was brought in as news manager from no where in August 2009, why? Because people knew they could do a good job. As long as the right person is brought in, who has proved themselves in the past, then it's a go ahead. Management aren't always chosen in an internal hierarchal basis. I wouldn't start assuming the the current forum manager would be the next AGM of staff and what not, it could be someone completely different, but someone fit for the job. I think Oli's hiring was a good deed as it was when Habbox was in a dent, and with someone who knows their stuff in that capacity, Habbox was able to re-garner strength and lead itself onto the road to recovery.

As for the argument, that well why is someone who was a forum rebel management? Well, it's all about giving chances, for a time Ryan, when I wanted to hire you at news, general management would have nothing of it. Then eventually, Garion agreed and you turned out to be a very fine news reporter. Thing change, people change. I'm sure you weren't the same person you were 5 years ago. Adzeh used to be an elite scammer himself, a couple of years before he was management, that argument is pretty much pointless.

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Agreed. If someone had been a rebel in the past (like Oli apparently) then I agree the reasons should be considered and then a decision should be made whether they get a second chance or not!

In terms of "hiring past rebels" I'd like to think Habbox has quite a fair policy on that, to highlight myself as an example I returned to this forum on this account after 18 months of being banned - the ban on this account was unfair as stated by General Management at the time, I think in it's history this account has had something like 4 infractions - I rebelled when this account was banned and had the forum account I used whilst banned permanently banned fairly in 2007 - I didn't use Habbox very much in 2008 until around the end of the year when I asked Nvr to look into the ban on this account, he unbanned it realising there was nothing supporting the ban.

I didn't become a moderator here until June 09, after returning around Dec 08 - during this time I got three PMs from a moderator, one for posting a picture of Garion as a baby (which it turned out Garion didn't mind), one for calling Clarissa fat (which again, turned out she didn't mind) and one filter avoidance (woo for example pointing out moderation is fairer) - so that's a good 6/7 months of good behaviour.

As AGM Staff it's my responsibility to say yes or no when I get permissions requests in regards to staff and I have one simple policy regarding rebels, if their rebelling wasn't much (unlike my case) then I'd like to see at least a month of good behaviour from the rebel before letting them be staff. If the rebel was someone like Pleke etc if they came to habbox and gave us 6 months of good behaviour - I'd let them return in any role, another example here is bethie - hell bethie used to be a cow (sorry beth xo) to people on hxf and had more banned accounts than I did, she returned a few years later and showed signs of maturity and became a HxL DJ, I was going to hire her as a moderator until she broke a couple of rules the day I was going to do it (sorry for singling you out bethie).

In my position it'd be hypocritical to say we don't give people chances, we do and always will, as Grig pointed you out Ryan - you are another example. Nobody should be saying they know how this place is run staffwise as not many people are aware of my policies in regards to appointing staff and as Nvrspk said this is something that won't ever be revealed.

I think that I'm mimicking something that Jin said in regards to when someone was promoted to Manager (and people didn't agree with) or promoted at all to be honest, and that staffing has not and will not be discussed with people and frankly isn't anyone's concern. In my case, I only returned as a Super Moderator because we were low on them (and of course, I knew that we would need someone quick due to me being the assistant and offered to come back and help). I didn't see any issue with it myself because all the Moderators at the time were fairly knew - also I only returned for a short space of time and helped when I could whilst still only having a limited time to do it in. Promotions will always be contraversial, you will always get someone who will throw their toys out the pram and then evidently see that it was a mistake or return when the person has left. In my personal opinion staff shouldn't assume that because they have been there the longest in a senior position that they will be promoted because from personal experience (and I think Mrs.Mccall spoke about this before) it doesn't always happen.

I'm not sure why people are saying people being permed with 4 infractions is ludicrous and a thing that happened under old General Management teams. How many did Graham/Jake have when they were permanently banned? The system will always be the same. The people who are seen as rule breakers and have personalities that means they get noticed won't be treated the same as users who constantly break rules but don't post as much. Anyway, it's probably a good thing there are no impending General Management changes because although the forum is very limp perhaps consistency will go some way to resolve this.

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Originally Posted by Grig

At the end of the day it is Jin's decision to who he wants to hire in his general management team. He can have his mother doing her stuff if he so wished, it's the perks about being the owner. This isn't the first time things like this have happened. Jrh2002 was brought it from no-where as radio manager when Adzeh quit in September 2007. Garion was brought in as news manager from no where in August 2009, why? Because people knew they could do a good job. As long as the right person is brought in, who has proved themselves in the past, then it's a go ahead. Management aren't always chosen in an internal hierarchal basis. I wouldn't start assuming the the current forum manager would be the next AGM of staff and what not, it could be someone completely different, but someone fit for the job. I think Oli's hiring was a good deed as it was when Habbox was in a dent, and with someone who knows their stuff in that capacity, Habbox was able to re-garner strength and lead itself onto the road to recovery.

As for the argument, that well why is someone who was a forum rebel management? Well, it's all about giving chances, for a time Ryan, when I wanted to hire you at news, general management would have nothing of it. Then eventually, Garion agreed and you turned out to be a very fine news reporter. Thing change, people change. I'm sure you weren't the same person you were 5 years ago. Adzeh used to be an elite scammer himself, a couple of years before he was management, that argument is pretty much pointless.

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People change. Some people seem to be given that, some don't.

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Originally Posted by Niall!

I'm not sure why people are saying people being permed with 4 infractions is ludicrous and a thing that happened under old General Management teams. How many did Graham/Jake have when they were permanently banned? The system will always be the same. The people who are seen as rule breakers and have personalities that means they get noticed won't be treated the same as users who constantly break rules but don't post as much. Anyway, it's probably a good thing there are no impending General Management changes because although the forum is very limp perhaps consistency will go some way to resolve this.

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'Personality'. Guess that is one way to describe it.

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To be fair, I don't see why this is still going on. At the end of the day, Jin pretty much runs Habbox. If he wants to hire Graham as the next General Manager, he can.

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Originally Posted by Pyroka

I love threads like these. In the old days, it'd pretty much be whoever was the longest serving member of staff would get the position, which is why they wouldn't leave. This was always the case and everyone knew it, the longest-working people would get the position based on their long loyalty to Habbox. If you left, you wouldn't get another position at Habbox.

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First of all, props for presenting your argument rationally and calmly. With that said, from personal experience I can say this is categorically false. Many people were "fast-tracked" and rose through the ranks quickly because they were being recruited for a job. If we're talking about the irritating factor, that is more irritating than someone who's been here a while, left, and then gets the job.

Also, people who had been there for a long time were often passed over. It happened quite a bit, and it also happened to me. So I can say from personal experience, people were picked because they had certain qualities, and I was ok with it. I was put in many roles for a long period of time and I got promoted because I stuck with it even after other people got promoted, and eventually I got my shot. So I've been in the position of a manager who was passed over and it really wasn't as bad as you're making it to be. I've also had to deal with discontent managers and it usually works out fairly quickly.

So, no, contentious hirings are not a new thing. Even ex-staff members coming back is not a new thing, many admins and (A)GMs were brought back from retirement. Being brought back directly at AGM may seem strange, however Seacat and jrh were both brought back directly.

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Originally Posted by Pyroka

I don't remember Jrh being brought back tbh, you've probably got a longer experience on HxF than I do. But as I said though, I wasn't saying that who they bring back aren't good for the job, I just simply think that other people should be given a chance instead. And Habbox would never bring people into Management from other sites, even if that site was called Habbo.com (yes they wouldn't even recruit Sulake staff lol), never gonna even consider that possibility as it's one of those sites where you have to work your way up to the top... However, from what I see it's work your way almost to the top, quit, and get higher which is a bit confusing lol.

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It happened a couple times but isn't necessarily a set-in-stone pattern. Things are different.

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By the way, I'm going off on a tangent a bit here but what job did Jamesy have before being a Forum/Site Technician (technician of some sort anyway)? Because I don't recall him having one... I guess you could say that's me going off on a tangent, but it kinda relates to what I'm saying here. I mean, I could suggest FlyingJesus to be a member of Management and I bet he'd be excellent for it but obv because he doesn't get along with certain people, he'd never get that job. I think you can see what I'm getting at here, and I bet a lot of users reading this post already knew from when they just started reading page 1 of this thread. Actually, informed users probably didn't even need to see this thread.

I say users, because that also comes under Staff. Oh the heretics with their opinions lol.

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I don't think this is that relevant, Forum/Site Technicians have a history of being out of the blue, it's almost tradition. People with sufficient technical skills, the time, and the trust, are few and far between. When we find someone, we take them. Going through most of the Forum and Site Technicians, you will see many were brought back or simply moved into the position from an unrelated position. The position is pure merit, there is no path to Forum or Site Technician, though being an admin can help with the former and being a CD can help with the latter, though once again it's not at all a set path.

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Originally Posted by Pyroka

People seem to have a short memory of when Hecktix was a forum rebel and was permenantly banned. However becoming friends with the right people not only escalates you to Forum Manager after being banned from the said forum, but also when you leave you're treated at such a high manner that you're asked back for a higher role than what you previously were. I'm not picking on Oli specifically, but he is and always will be the one example for that argument.

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Trust me, I know what a rebel Oli was, he tried to start a rebellion against me ;) There were good reasons for what happened, and at first there were limits, which changed as the management team changed. Many people have been rebels and have been allowed back, as long as there wasn't too much malice or we feel that they were properly reformed.

Case in point: Mrs.McCall (sorry Joey) who did apologize a few days after the incident and was allowed back much later when he calmed down and also showed us that we wouldn't have a repeat. Although we've been bitten by that sometimes, but we deal with it appropriately.

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Ah I couldn't remember that at all! :P Can't even remember him becoming FM tbh! And like, FlyingJesus, as well as the likes of Neversoft & GommeInc have contributed tons to Habbox yet they've never ever been considered for a position in management, though FlyingJesus did because... well, I dunno why he was to be honest but judging by the amount of support the Habbox Council got, which he was the manager of(?), he wasn't that highly considered. Martin was News Manager for an awful long time yeah, but when it comes to it why would someone leave? I mean, would it be due to personal reasons? Or that they have no time on there hands to do so? So why would they leave in the first place and later come back as a higher position, literally like a week or two after they like. I don't get that at all, I remember that somebody resigned from HxHD (possibly Shar?) and they had to build their way back to the top, yet in any other department this is not the case, no in fact, if you leave then you end up getting a higher position than what you had, or equally returning to the position you once had. Double standards? I think so.

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GommeInc could have had a management position if he wanted one, I think he just couldn't be assed to deal with working his way up or involving himself. I think it was something different than Habbox Council, Habbox Council I ran, I think FJ ran Community Support. Though I swear he was Articles Manager at some point...maybe just staff. There are members that are a large part of the community that choose not to enter management. And some that do and leave (ie: Mentor).

I do see your point about leaving and returning at a higher position, and that doesn't usually happen, though with AGM sometimes it does. However that's rare as far as promotion within a department, promotion to AGM is slightly different. The real reason this is happening is because there's a shortage of staff. Sarah was saying her return to SMod was because of a need for SMods. And though there might be qualified managers, it may be the case that they are vital to their department, and General Management told them this, and it was decided that they'll stay in their department. That's pure conjecture though (but it is based off of experience).

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One other person I'd like to give an honorable mention to is Immenseman. He contributed so much to Habbox, yet when management were given the chance they fully shut him out and cast him out as some sort of criminal. Now I know the reasons for why he was cast out as a criminal, but do you think he would've done that if he was treated with some respect like most ex-management are? Do you think he would've ever been asked back to be AGM (Community), considering in my opinion, he has more experience than Roxy and Martin have put together?

Bluntly put, no. He's not friends with the right people, and General Management have a grudge against him. Thats what it boils down to nowadays, if you're not friends with them, you can forget about it.

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That's not true at all. Immenseman went a little bit rebellious, I still have respect for him and I don't think it's a stretch to say that we have an amicable relationship, but I think he made the decision to separate himself from the management team, I'm having trouble recalling the specifics. They may have eventually booted him but I also remember he did some things that surprised me...I'm getting old.

He was always friends with the right people, he's actually the antithesis of your point :P But I agree he did quite a good job.

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Originally Posted by Sarah

I think that I'm mimicking something that Jin said in regards to when someone was promoted to Manager (and people didn't agree with) or promoted at all to be honest, and that staffing has not and will not be discussed with people and frankly isn't anyone's concern.

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Sometimes discussions about the procedure for staffing decisions can be discussed, though it is absolutely policy not to debate individual appointments, and that the decisions made are not up for debate. Sometimes management will allow debate about procedures, it will almost always be allowed via PM and sometimes will be allowed in public threads. At least, this was past policy.


That said, this disclaimer applies to this post and my last. Obviously I am no longer a part of management and so my comments should not be taken as the "official" or "management" view, just the opinions of a member who has some past experience with the matters.

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Originally Posted by HotelUser

I think someone resigning because they dislike someone then returning when they've gone is ridiculous (fortunately this doesn't really happen all too often, I do think it's extremely petty). There's always going to be people you work with who you don't like. Bold acts like this, or ragging on them around the clock is really silly when the two people can exist separately and in peace. That's really the biggest thing that I don't like - which in a sense is outright targeting other people who haven't necessarily ever done anything to anyone else other than hold a position you don't want them in. You should hold a position at Habbox because you like what the job entails, the title surrounding the job as well as who else is doing it when it has no affect on you should be entirely irrelevant and if not then you're really here for the wrong reasons :P

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I disagree entirely - in the real world that might be the case, you have to do the job and get on with it, but here everything is about who you're working with. Teamwork is something that's far far more successful when the team all get along, and of course if it's made more enjoyable then people will do better jobs of it. I know from experience that having one or two members of the management team that the rest don't like means that more effort gets put into rounding up ways to get rid of them than actually doing their jobs

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Originally Posted by Matts

Surely if the person hired was best for the job, then there's nothing to complain about?

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100% true, nice/fair is not an issue

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Originally Posted by Pyroka

I love threads like these. In the old days, it'd pretty much be whoever was the longest serving member of staff would get the position, which is why they wouldn't leave. This was always the case and everyone knew it, the longest-working people would get the position based on their long loyalty to Habbox. If you left, you wouldn't get another position at Habbox.

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I went from trialist articles writer to Community Support manager in 2 months what are you on about

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Originally Posted by Pyroka

People seem to have a short memory of when Hecktix was a forum rebel and was permenantly banned. However becoming friends with the right people not only escalates you to Forum Manager after being banned from the said forum, but also when you leave you're treated at such a high manner that you're asked back for a higher role than what you previously were. I'm not picking on Oli specifically, but he is and always will be the one example for that argument.

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He and I have never been famously friendly but he's not the same guy as the old Hecktix was, and it's not like that was last week or something. That said, yeah why should having friends in high places not do you favours? As I've written above, a team of friends works far better than a team at each others' throats, so it makes plenty of sense to get the people you like into big positions if they're able to do the job

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Originally Posted by Pyroka

Ah I couldn't remember that at all! :P Can't even remember him becoming FM tbh! And like, FlyingJesus, as well as the likes of Neversoft & GommeInc have contributed tons to Habbox yet they've never ever been considered for a position in management, though FlyingJesus did because... well, I dunno why he was to be honest but judging by the amount of support the Habbox Council got, which he was the manager of(?), he wasn't that highly considered.

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I got that position because I'm good friends with Sam, and at the time I used to talk to nvr and the AGM team quite a bit so I just kept bugging him about it. When I got the job I made a team of my friends and with the extremely limited powers we were given (ie: pretty much none that we were supposed to have) we did a fair amount of work because there was no "cba, don't like him anyway" factor to it. Council was managed by nvr, I was on the executive board or whatever but the entire thing was a joke anyway and I'd have never advocated its creation if I hadn't been 100% certain that I'd be in on it :P

That isn't to say that I'm not amazing and worthy of the jobs, I clearly am as people always say in these threads (keep feeding my ego btw people I love it) but as per the point of the thread, I'm simply not friends with the current upper management, and there's no point hiring someone you're scared of

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Originally Posted by nvrspk4

GommeInc could have had a management position if he wanted one, I think he just couldn't be assed to deal with working his way up or involving himself. I think it was something different than Habbox Council, Habbox Council I ran, I think FJ ran Community Support. Though I swear he was Articles Manager at some point...maybe just staff.

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Yeah never managed articles, I got the department shut down before I could get promoted :P
Bolded bit is a very important point, I can't speak for Ryan obviously but I know for me that is the case - I'd take a management spot because that's what I'm good at, but wouldn't do the normal jobs because that doesn't interest me and I'd do rush jobs of it. Articles was an exception because I do like to write, but even then I just used things that I'd already written in the past and posted them to show off how great I am

Eek, I've been mentioned a few times in this thread so I thought I'd pitch in.

The argument about rebels and such isn't fair. I was given chances and I think I earnt them. The time I resigned rather publically as News Manager over my dispute with Nvr was a personal thing with him as GM that I felt was justified. Still, I apologised. Yet, when I wanted to return to News, I was declined several times. Based on nothing but my previous reputation. I think it's unfair. It even got to the point where there were arguments between people. I was then allowed to return on a trial basis, something I found to be completely unfair considering all my time at Habbox and the fact I was a manager. I then proved myself to a valuable asset and I am now a Senior in Articles.

I wasn't given a trial, however, without having to do some serious convincing. Martin is a great manager but at first I was treated unfairly and based on reputation.

I do feel that Habbox is a bit of a boys club these days in terms of General Management. I think people do get promoted based more on their relationship with General Management rather than their talents yet everytime, they've proved themselves to be a valuable asset. It may not be fair but it gets the job done. Martin's promotion was well deserved but I can understand why people are confused. He left Habbox because he felt it was time to move on, I understand and we've all been there, yet he changed his mind so was given a General Management position. This isn't a slight on him but I feel that had it been anyone else, that wouldn't have happened.

And can anyone honestly say if Seacat or Adzeh wanted back in News they'd have to do a trial? I think that there needs to be a similar rule for everyone when it comes to returning after resignation/dismissal.

I want to reitorate this isn't me having a go. Martin is fantastic, he's a nice guy but he'll admit he was a tough nut for me to crack!