Some things do not make sense?!

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23-07-2008, 06:27 PM
kk.

Some things do not make sense?!

I think their are two things that need to be brought up. For one, when a thread turns into a fight, a moderator closes it. However, it just doesn't make sense for the mdoerator to say 'feel free to make the same thread again but make sure their are no arguments' or something along those lines. Surely it makes forums cleaner to either keep the thread closed and not open another or to leave it open and put a warning in the thread saying do not discuss whatever...

Also, the fact that when people get permanently banned they are able to make another account? This doesn't make sense either. Surely some things are obvious that they are the same member and you can even do an IP check or e-mail address. These two things do not make sense since it completely contradicts what happened in the first place. If a member is banned, their is a reason so they shouldn't be allowed back until the ban is ended or just let them back on their original account.

If this makes sense discuss it please :)
23-07-2008, 07:46 PM
GommeInc

Quote:

Originally Posted by kk.

I think their are two things that need to be brought up. For one, when a thread turns into a fight, a moderator closes it. However, it just doesn't make sense for the mdoerator to say 'feel free to make the same thread again but make sure their are no arguments' or something along those lines. Surely it makes forums cleaner to either keep the thread closed and not open another or to leave it open and put a warning in the thread saying do not discuss whatever...

I don't see why they can't PM the members arguing to tell them to keep it to PMs and to remove offending posts :/ Closing the thread just cuts off discussion, which, of course, defeats the point of a thread in a forum.

Quote:

Also, the fact that when people get permanently banned they are able to make another account? This doesn't make sense either. Surely some things are obvious that they are the same member and you can even do an IP check or e-mail address. These two things do not make sense since it completely contradicts what happened in the first place. If a member is banned, their is a reason so they shouldn't be allowed back until the ban is ended or just let them back on their original account.

Again, they could just PM the person in question to tell them to calm down and come to some sort of agreement. I'm against bans anyway, they never work and it's alot easier to PM someone about whatever issues they have. Not only do they see you in a good light, it also solves having to hit the ban button every 5 mins.
23-07-2008, 07:51 PM
Camy

Quote:

Originally Posted by GommeInc

I don't see why they can't PM the members arguing to tell them to keep it to PMs and to remove offending posts :/ Closing the thread just cuts off discussion, which, of course, defeats the point of a thread in a forum.

Again, they could just PM the person in question to tell them to calm down and come to some sort of agreement. I'm against bans anyway, they never work and it's alot easier to PM someone about whatever issues they have. Not only do they see you in a good light, it also solves having to hit the ban button every 5 mins.

I agree, I think those are 2 very good ideas, which would help save wasted space on the forum, i.e. countless new accounts, and new threads of the same topic.
23-07-2008, 08:40 PM
mat64

I guess it's too bad they never installed the ban users from thread option. That's help with the first option atleast.
23-07-2008, 08:53 PM
kk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mat64

I guess it's too bad they never installed the ban users from thread option. That's help with the first option atleast.

lol, that was my idea as well. It would solve a whole lot of things. Anyway, agreed with the things people have said
23-07-2008, 09:20 PM
Elkaa

Certain members, as you know, are not allowed back after receiveing a perm. ban - The autoban list. Whilst this is a small list, it's the people that we feel should not be on this forum. If you get a ban for whatever reason, generally you're allowed back on another account as a "second chance" - If you abuse that, and continue, you end up on this list.

As for the PM's about arguements - This does happen. If it continues, however, warnings/infractions are issued and the thread is often closed to resolve the conflict.
23-07-2008, 09:24 PM
kk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elkaa

Certain members, as you know, are not allowed back after receiveing a perm. ban - The autoban list. Whilst this is a small list, it's the people that we feel should not be on this forum. If you get a ban for whatever reason, generally you're allowed back on another account as a "second chance" - If you abuse that, and continue, you end up on this list.

As for the PM's about arguements - This does happen. If it continues, however, warnings/infractions are issued and the thread is often closed to resolve the conflict.

yeh but it still doesnt make sense for them to make another account. Theyre the same person and wouldnt have changed. They will still generally act the same and all it does it make habbox look like it has a lot of members and clogs up the forum. Do you have any feedback for the multiple threads if ones closed? because it still doesnt make sense that ones closed to stop arguments yet another one is free to be opened only arguments cannot happen. But they still do...
23-07-2008, 09:26 PM
GommeInc

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elkaa

Certain members, as you know, are not allowed back after receiveing a perm. ban - The autoban list. Whilst this is a small list, it's the people that we feel should not be on this forum. If you get a ban for whatever reason, generally you're allowed back on another account as a "second chance" - If you abuse that, and continue, you end up on this list.

As for the PM's about arguements - This does happen. If it continues, however, warnings/infractions are issued and the thread is often closed to resolve the conflict.

Surely to save the arguments of them returning, you talk to them? Banning them and telling them they have one last chance doesn't help. You ask them to calm down and see why they're playing up. Telling them if they continue they'll get banned doesn't work, you have to imagine working in a school and dealing with 15/16 year olds. Telling them something never works, but talking to them about their problems does ;) And I know for certain that this isn't the case, otherwise their would be proof around the forum with people not playing up ;)
23-07-2008, 09:29 PM
Nemo

Quote:

Originally Posted by GommeInc

Surely to save the arguments of them returning, you talk to them? Banning them and telling them they have one last chance doesn't help. You ask them to calm down and see why they're playing up. Telling them if they continue they'll get banned doesn't work, you have to imagine working in a school and dealing with 15/16 year olds. Telling them something never works, but talking to them about their problems does ;) And I know for certain that this isn't the case, otherwise their would be proof around the forum with people not playing up ;)

Aha true. I was just told 'MAD banned you so you dont have a chance of coming back' i just thought, ok, thats really fair. Didnt even get a chance to argue my case "/
23-07-2008, 09:32 PM
GommeInc

Someone should be fired then for saying that, if they can't let someone argue their case (even though it's obvious the ban is unfair), then they're not needed to be honest :/ Wasn't it sierk that said banning members leaves the staff with more respect than unbanning them? Kinda discredits it with this case :P

Hmm, kinda wrong what I said, he said it would be a bad precedent. As far as I am aware, it's respect over future decisions, especially with a teen run community. Nothing's more sadder than teens thinking they're uber powerful and changing the way they should treat people, even though they're the same age as the people they're dealing with :P
23-07-2008, 09:34 PM
Nemo

Quote:

Originally Posted by GommeInc

Someone should be fired then for saying that, if they can't let someone argue their case (even though it's obvious the ban is unfair), then they're not needed to be honest :/ Wasn't it sierk that said banning members leaves the staff with more respect than unbanning them? Kinda discredits it with this case :P

Mhm, i'd have more respect if they admitted they were wrong sometimes and made mistakes like all humans do, but some of them are too 'high up' too admit some things, but i wont really name names.
23-07-2008, 09:37 PM
GommeInc

So very true, they could at least admit they're wrong jokingly by going "Whoops, didn't work at as good as we thought :P" Some have had the happy zapped out of them, it would seem :P
23-07-2008, 09:39 PM
Nemo

Quote:

Originally Posted by GommeInc

So very true, they could at least admit they're wrong jokingly by going "Whoops, didn't work at as good as we thought :P" Some have had the happy zapped out of them, it would seem :P

Hehe yeh, im just waitin til they realise they dont have always be the blank face acting proffesional. Only a matter o' time i say :p.
23-07-2008, 09:41 PM
GommeInc

Hope they do, this type of forum always works better when people act their age. They're trying to be like a forum I joined years ago which was run by adults and the atmosphere was of a "be serious" nature. With this sort of forum, you cannot act serious, you could even say it's unnatural :P
23-07-2008, 09:42 PM
Nemo

Quote:

Originally Posted by GommeInc

Hope they do, this type of forum always works better when people act their age. They're trying to be like a forum I joined years ago which was run by adults and the atmosphere was of a "be serious" nature. With this sort of forum, you cannot act serious, you could even say it's unnatural :P

Yeh, especially when u hit the spam forum, sometimes even too immature for me hehe =p but its nice to be immature, itd suck to be serious 100% of the time
23-07-2008, 09:51 PM
Elkaa

Quote:

Originally Posted by kk.

yeh but it still doesnt make sense for them to make another account. Theyre the same person and wouldnt have changed. They will still generally act the same and all it does it make habbox look like it has a lot of members and clogs up the forum. Do you have any feedback for the multiple threads if ones closed? because it still doesnt make sense that ones closed to stop arguments yet another one is free to be opened only arguments cannot happen. But they still do...

Quote:

Originally Posted by GommeInc

Surely to save the arguments of them returning, you talk to them? Banning them and telling them they have one last chance doesn't help. You ask them to calm down and see why they're playing up. Telling them if they continue they'll get banned doesn't work, you have to imagine working in a school and dealing with 15/16 year olds. Telling them something never works, but talking to them about their problems does ;) And I know for certain that this isn't the case, otherwise their would be proof around the forum with people not playing up ;)

Decided to reply to these together, because whilst you put forward some good points, what you're saying isn't possible for a forum like this. Since the recent moderation changes, the amount of bans and cautions issues has dropped massively. Before, when I checked on the bans, there was often 10, maybe 11 people cautioned or banned at the same time - Now, before the bullying earlier today, there was only 3. This in itself is showing how the emphaises is being put more on communicating with the members, talking to them and trying to ensure that they don't break the rules anymore.

Another example is with the new warning/infraction system - Before they are issued, PM's are sent asking politely for the member to stop, and get back ontrack. They're welcome to discuss it with that moderator, or any other super moderator/administrator. No longer is it "right, thats swearing, straight to my card button".

However, what you're saying about having a talk after (or before) the ban is issued to see what's wrong just isn't a viable option on a forum of this size, with the few amount of administrators we have. Having to each time, before (or after) a permanent ban is issued ask questions about why it was done, or try to resolve it that way would be an entire job in itself, probably for more than one person due to the amount of issues that arise day in, day out. It doesn't mean, however, that we aren't making every effort to ensure that our userbase is happy with the situation we can offer on the forum, and that every effort is made to ensure that bans are issued as rarely as possible, as I highlighted above.

A prime example of this is today, when several members started posting inappropriate images for the forum, and attempting to bully other members - Situations like that are the main reason for bans on the forum currently, and if someone is on the forum for the sole purpose to bully, or join in with bullying on the forum, to be quite honest I don't think they should be on the forum at all, and as such bans were issued. Looking back in retrospective I'm sure that if they'd of known bans were coming their way, at least 2 of them would not of done it, however we're not here to hold your hands, and give 1,000 chances before bans are issued - That's why the PM before warning/infraction system is there.

Communication does help, and it's being used effectively on the forum, and furthermore most bans that are issued are checked, especially if reported to us as possible incorrect, but asking for a system of where each person is spoken too, before (or after) a ban is issued, isn't a viable sollution, without a (much) larger administration team.
23-07-2008, 09:56 PM
Nemo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elkaa

Decided to reply to these together, because whilst you put forward some good points, what you're saying isn't possible for a forum like this. Since the recent moderation changes, the amount of bans and cautions issues has dropped massively. Before, when I checked on the bans, there was often 10, maybe 11 people cautioned or banned at the same time - Now, before the bullying earlier today, there was only 3. This in itself is showing how the emphaises is being put more on communicating with the members, talking to them and trying to ensure that they don't break the rules anymore.

Another example is with the new warning/infraction system - Before they are issued, PM's are sent asking politely for the member to stop, and get back ontrack. They're welcome to discuss it with that moderator, or any other super moderator/administrator. No longer is it "right, thats swearing, straight to my card button".

However, what you're saying about having a talk after (or before) the ban is issued to see what's wrong just isn't a viable option on a forum of this size, with the few amount of administrators we have. Having to each time, before (or after) a permanent ban is issued ask questions about why it was done, or try to resolve it that way would be an entire job in itself, probably for more than one person due to the amount of issues that arise day in, day out. It doesn't mean, however, that we aren't making every effort to ensure that our userbase is happy with the situation we can offer on the forum, and that every effort is made to ensure that bans are issued as rarely as possible, as I highlighted above.

You contradict yourself. In the first paragraph you say "This in itself is showing how the emphaises is being put more on communicating with the members, talking to them and trying to ensure that they don't break the rules anymore." but then later on you say " ust isn't a viable option on a forum of this size".

Also, i recieved no warning that i was going to get banned and neither did neversoft. I had no warnings/infractions and had generally been a happy member and im pretty sure more people liked me than disliked me.
23-07-2008, 09:59 PM
Elkaa

Quote:

Originally Posted by lNaughtynemo

You contradict yourself. In the first paragraph you say "This in itself is showing how the emphaises is being put more on communicating with the members, talking to them and trying to ensure that they don't break the rules anymore." but then later on you say " ust isn't a viable option on a forum of this size".

Then you probably misunderstood. What I put in the first paragraph is how ban amounts have reduced, and much more discussion through PM's (rather than bans and infractions) is now taking place. Later on I mention that to cut it down even further, so that administrators (or super moderators) had to discuss with the member in question what's going wrong, before each ban, isn't viable.

To sum it up, communication has improved alot since the moderation change, however to ensure that each person on the "ban list" was discussed with, isn't an option. (Besides, we have contact us for if you believe the ban was unjust)
23-07-2008, 10:01 PM
Nemo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elkaa

Then you probably misunderstood. What I put in the first paragraph is how ban amounts have reduced, and much more discussion through PM's (rather than bans and infractions) is now taking place. Later on I mention that to cut it down even further, so that administrators (or super moderators) had to discuss with the member in question what's going wrong, before each ban, isn't viable.

To sum it up, communication has improved alot since the moderation change, however to ensure that each person on the "ban list" was discussed with, isn't an option. (Besides, we have contact us for if you believe the ban was unjust)

I see, well i probaly misunderstood that then.

But, i wasnt given any warning, i used the contact us, no reply. Also, you said that about 3 got banned recently? That takes SO much time to discuss with or give a warning right? You've been debating about my ban with me for a couple days now.
23-07-2008, 10:11 PM
Elkaa

You know as well as I do that I can't discuss specific bans with you on the forum.
23-07-2008, 10:13 PM
Nemo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elkaa

You know as well as I do that I can't discuss specific bans with you on the forum.

Im not discussing my ban, whats it about, im discussing why i didnt have a chance to redeem myself (even though i did nothing wrong) and why i won't have a chance to be unbanned.
23-07-2008, 10:20 PM
Elkaa

Quote:

Originally Posted by lNaughtynemo

Im not discussing my ban, whats it about, im discussing why i didnt have a chance to redeem myself (even though i did nothing wrong) and why i won't have a chance to be unbanned.

All I can say for that is, as ever, email contact us and wait for a reply.
23-07-2008, 10:21 PM
Nereo

Maybe they let them back after they are banned and tell them to post new threads after an argument to improve the forum stats? :S

Just an idea :P
23-07-2008, 10:23 PM
Nemo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elkaa

All I can say for that is, as ever, email contact us and wait for a reply.

Did it like a week ago, you said checked daily. I fail to see the point in using contact us again if theres apparently no point.
23-07-2008, 10:51 PM
GommeInc

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elkaa

Decided to reply to these together, because whilst you put forward some good points, what you're saying isn't possible for a forum like this. Since the recent moderation changes, the amount of bans and cautions issues has dropped massively. Before, when I checked on the bans, there was often 10, maybe 11 people cautioned or banned at the same time - Now, before the bullying earlier today, there was only 3. This in itself is showing how the emphaises is being put more on communicating with the members, talking to them and trying to ensure that they don't break the rules anymore.

What thing isn't possible? It sounds like you're justifying yourself that there are less bans, which is something you should aim to do. Banning members isn't the main option.

Quote:

However, what you're saying about having a talk after (or before) the ban is issued to see what's wrong just isn't a viable option on a forum of this size, with the few amount of administrators we have. Having to each time, before (or after) a permanent ban is issued ask questions about why it was done, or try to resolve it that way would be an entire job in itself, probably for more than one person due to the amount of issues that arise day in, day out. It doesn't mean, however, that we aren't making every effort to ensure that our userbase is happy with the situation we can offer on the forum, and that every effort is made to ensure that bans are issued as rarely as possible, as I highlighted above.

It is possible, there's not that many major arguments by the looks of things, unless you think every negative factor of the forum is something you must aim to please, which it shouldn't... The other option is hiring more staff and because the forum is "so big" it'll be easy to find such people :P

Quote:

A prime example of this is today, when several members started posting inappropriate images for the forum, and attempting to bully other members - Situations like that are the main reason for bans on the forum currently, and if someone is on the forum for the sole purpose to bully, or join in with bullying on the forum, to be quite honest I don't think they should be on the forum at all, and as such bans were issued. Looking back in retrospective I'm sure that if they'd of known bans were coming their way, at least 2 of them would not of done it, however we're not here to hold your hands, and give 1,000 chances before bans are issued - That's why the PM before warning/infraction system is there.

Posting images is a good reason to ban someone straight away if they continue to do so, one thread/post doesn't really justify a ban, rather a caution which I think disables the ability to post images. Or can't you do that with vB? IPB forums can disable image postings for member groups :P Members who are bullying just need a time out, a quick word with them should solve it and suggesting they get banned if they continue.

Quote:

Communication does help, and it's being used effectively on the forum, and furthermore most bans that are issued are checked, especially if reported to us as possible incorrect, but asking for a system of where each person is spoken too, before (or after) a ban is issued, isn't a viable sollution, without a (much) larger administration team.

You've got moderators... They can talk to people too. If they don't have the power to confront people, then you've nulled the moderation team. No, they cannot ban, but it is their duty to moderate and control their own little forums and they should at least have the power to confront members about issues and forward it to an administrator if needed. That is afterall what moderators should be allowed to do, not just removed text from posts etc. Can't moderators see and edit notes about members so they know if they've been contacted before about their behaviour? That's how some forums do it :)
23-07-2008, 11:27 PM
kk.

naughtynemo is a good example of this... He's allowed freely on the forum on another account but not allowed on his other account? Surely it would make More sense to just caution until he's redeemed himself. If this was done, you can ban people who don't and then ip ban them. I know that people change them but it's one option. I'll reply more in full tomorrow but one more thing is something that gomme brought up. Their are fewer and fewer people being banned and I can't imagine every one of them will protest. 3 people doesn't take that much effort to reply. Or even have someone that looks at all the evidence of the ban and make a judgement. I'm sure many people will be willing to step up to the role. I can't imagine their are that many bans on this forum a day.
24-07-2008, 05:06 AM
nvrspk4

In regards to shutting a thread and why it makes any sense whatsoever, basically if an argument is raging in a thread yes you can PM some people but they'll probably be going back and forth anyway. Secondly, those people are usually in a cold rage, so by shutting the thread you give them a little time to cool off. Thirdly, yes the arguers MIGHT stop, however that doesn't stop someone from reading through the argument and picking up where it left off, starting it back up again. Then we're playing a constant game of catch-up trying to talk to every new member that posts.

Reopening the thread seperately gives it a new start - its hard for people to carry the argument over because arguments are often off the topic a little bit, therefore it looks silly when they try to continue the argument without the previous posts in the thread. Also it lets people cool down, and it sends a clearer message to others not to mess it up again.

There are levels of punishment. There's losing some privileges (caution), losing your account temporarily (temp ban) and losing it permanantly (perm ban). A perm ban is not an attempt to permanantly keep someone off our forum. A perm ban is basically the next level of punishment - we deny them their account, they lose their rep points, some of their fame, their posts, their usergroup, PMs, VIP etc. etc. etc. They're not being denied the community, they're welcome to come back (and be good) and enjoy the community. However if they continue, we up it to Autoban. Its simply levels of punishment, you're mistaken in thinking that a perm ban is an attempt to keep them off our forum (or I may have misunderstood what you meant.)
24-07-2008, 08:12 AM
JackBuddy

I got a warning from Professor-Alex (and I think GommeInc too) after I played my parts in those numerous threads, and looking back I probably said stuff that was just as 'negative' as NaughtyNemo and Neversoft. But they received no PM warnings. I'm not sure if Nemo got a PM or not, but I was just wondering why neversoft/sadness didn't receive one.
24-07-2008, 08:42 AM
Niall!

Jack, nimah didn't, he was just permabanned.
24-07-2008, 09:20 AM
Hayd93

Quote:

Originally Posted by GommeInc

Again, they could just PM the person in question to tell them to calm down and come to some sort of agreement. I'm against bans anyway, they never work and it's alot easier to PM someone about whatever issues they have. Not only do they see you in a good light, it also solves having to hit the ban button every 5 mins.

The point you made there is a good one,
I always prefeer to pm the member explaining. I find it alot more effective and i find that after a nice pm explaing the coperate more. The times i give infractions are usually to members who send me back a rude reply or just ignore what i have said, In that case theres no point in pming them sort of members are they will just throw it in you face.

What also makes me laugh is saying mods hit the ban button ever 5 mins. If you have proof of this please do pm me because most weeks i dont even touch the ban button.

Anyway what i said was just pointless as someone will just come with a comment in this thread or another thread saying how we ban mamabers for fun. I can tell you know i would mutch rather pm then its alot less hassle but most just ignore the pm's so we have to ban in the end.
24-07-2008, 10:18 AM
Elkaa

Quote:

Originally Posted by GommeInc

Can't moderators see and edit notes about members so they know if they've been contacted before about their behaviour? That's how some forums do it :)

Yes, they can.
24-07-2008, 10:54 AM
Nemo

Well, ill just continue to wait for a reply from sierk/mad about why i received no pm or warning before my ban, whilst having a spotless record aswell.
24-07-2008, 11:39 AM
GommeInc

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackBuddy

I got a warning from Professor-Alex (and I think GommeInc too) after I played my parts in those numerous threads, and looking back I probably said stuff that was just as 'negative' as NaughtyNemo and Neversoft. But they received no PM warnings. I'm not sure if Nemo got a PM or not, but I was just wondering why neversoft/sadness didn't receive one.

I gave you a warning?! I'm not even a moderator lol :P

Quote:

Originally Posted by hayd93

The point you made there is a good one,
I always prefeer to pm the member explaining. I find it alot more effective and i find that after a nice pm explaing the coperate more. The times i give infractions are usually to members who send me back a rude reply or just ignore what i have said, In that case theres no point in pming them sort of members are they will just throw it in you face.

I guess it depends on the content of the PM, you've got to make it so they have to PM back or have to listen to what you say but not to the extreme where it seems you're forcing them to be good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hayd93

What also makes me laugh is saying mods hit the ban button ever 5 mins. If you have proof of this please do pm me because most weeks i dont even touch the ban button.

It's an exagerration, but when someone does get banned and they appear again on another account, it does look like they've got themselves banned again in 5 minutes, and so on after that :P

Quote:

Originally Posted by hard93

Anyway what i said was just pointless as someone will just come with a comment in this thread or another thread saying how we ban mamabers for fun. I can tell you know i would mutch rather pm then its alot less hassle but most just ignore the pm's so we have to ban in the end.

I think it's because it seems like you do, with Neversofts and Nemos account, they were just banned for no reason, because simply, there isn't one. The negativity rule they "broke" was nulled because they're not constantly negative, there's no proof of this. You can't even use the reason "We're admins, we know" because it's a forum, you see what other members do, they're actions aren't just viewable to staff :P
24-07-2008, 01:00 PM
JackBuddy

Quote:

Originally Posted by GommeInc

I gave you a warning?! I'm not even a moderator lol :P

No no, I was just saying, I think I remember you saying that you received a warning?
24-07-2008, 11:07 PM
Neversoft

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elkaa

To sum it up, communication has improved alot since the moderation change, however to ensure that each person on the "ban list" was discussed with, isn't an option. (Besides, we have contact us for if you believe the ban was unjust)

What? Communication is extremely poor. I got banned a week ago and have still not recieved a reply from when I used contact us nor have I recieved a reply to any of my PMs about my ban and every admin that knows about my ban refuses to discuss it with me. Actually, they don't even refuse, they simply ignore. Communication? There is none.
25-07-2008, 12:28 AM
Elkaa

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sadness

What? Communication is extremely poor. I got banned a week ago and have still not recieved a reply from when I used contact us nor have I recieved a reply to any of my PMs about my ban and every admin that knows about my ban refuses to discuss it with me. Actually, they don't even refuse, they simply ignore. Communication? There is none.

Drop me a PM with your contact email and I'll check for if there is anything there.